The Knicks won the Porzingis trade before they made bad decisions with that money saved.
They might be correct on JB being a stud but in the end they will still make a ton of bad decisions that will negate any gains. Not that it will be any consolation for the Mavs.
(06-28-2022, 11:42 PM)hakeemfaan Wrote: [ -> ]The Knicks won the Porzingis trade before they made bad decisions with that money saved.
I mean if they didn't use the main benefit of the KP trade for them correctly, did they really "win" the trade? What constitutes winning a trade here?
Mavs made the playoffs 3 years in a row with KP, and was on their way to a fourth before cutting bait and that was despite his health issues.
NYK made the playoffs once and promptly overpaid. Mavs got back 2 valued contributors for KP.
NYK got:
- Taj Gibson
- Julius Randle
- Portis (who they lost as a FA)
- Bullock (who they lost as a FA)
- Nerlens Noel
- Alec Burks
So far they traded the 2021 Mavs pick to the Clippers for Grimes.
Would you take 3 post season appearances w/ 1 WCF trip over, 2 late picks, wasted space, and 1 playoff appearance?
Don't see how the Knicks can be called a winner here at all, but I guess when it rains it pours and we have to give the Knicks their just desserts for...reasons.
(06-28-2022, 11:59 PM)SleepingHero Wrote: [ -> ]I mean if they didn't use the main benefit of the KP trade for them correctly, did they really "win" the trade? What constitutes winning a trade here?
Mavs made the playoffs 3 years in a row with KP, and was on their way to a fourth before cutting bait and that was despite his health issues.
NYK made the playoffs once and promptly overpaid. Mavs got back 2 valued contributors for KP.
NYK got:
- Taj Gibson
- Julius Randle
- Portis (who they lost as a FA)
- Bullock (who they lost as a FA)
- Nerlens Noel
- Alec Burks
So far they traded the 2021 Mavs pick to the Clippers for Grimes.
Would you take 3 post season appearances w/ 1 WCF trip over, 2 late picks, wasted space, and 1 playoff appearance?
Don't see how the Knicks can be called a winner here at all, but I guess when it rains it pours and we have to give the Knicks their just desserts for...reasons.
We extended THJ and punted KP's contract down the road in the flavor of Dinwiddie (terrible in the playoffs) and Bertans (terrible contract) and had to tip Washington a 2nd round pick to do so while still not even having paid off the debt of the initial trade. I don't think there are any winners here.
Jeez, that offer, if true was kind of an insult in the context of what the Mavs were willing to pay a far inferior and older player, THJ, last year even before the massive inflation we’ve seen in the economy this year. The Mavs really hate Brunson. I’ve considered him the be the team’s second best player pretty much since after his rookie year. He’s a leader and he actually works at his craft. What dopes.
(06-29-2022, 12:08 AM)cow Wrote: [ -> ]We extended THJ and punted KP's contract down the road in the flavor of Dinwiddie (terrible in the playoffs) and Bertans (terrible contract) and had to tip Washington a 2nd round pick to do so while still not even having paid off the debt of the initial trade. I don't think there are any winners here.
Given the fact that Dinwiddie has proven to be an incredibly valued player here and was playable/available in the playoffs (along with Bertans), I think there is a clear winner here.
KP's contract is also horrendous. He also didn't play. Mavs got 2 players that do play on horrendous contracts. 1 team has had more success than the other on both sides of the trade so I think it's not even close really.
Still, doesn't really matter anymore. KP isn't here. Winning a trade is arbitrary and often not really known without years of hindsight.
(06-29-2022, 01:17 AM)SleepingHero Wrote: [ -> ]Given the fact that Dinwiddie has proven to be an incredibly valued player here and was playable/available in the playoffs (along with Bertans), I think there is a clear winner here.
KP's contract is also horrendous. He also didn't play. Mavs got 2 players that do play on horrendous contracts. 1 team has had more success than the other on both sides of the trade so I think it's not even close really.
Still, doesn't really matter anymore. KP isn't here. Winning a trade is arbitrary and often not really known without years of hindsight.
Dinwiddie was great in the regular season and mostly bad in the playoffs. Bertans in the playoffs was out of necessity and not choice. And those two plus the pick are the knock on effect of blowing the KP trade in the first place and leaving our cap situation in such a state that those same Knicks will sign away our ne best player and probably improve the draft position of the final pick we owe them. Maybe they did win the trade.
This is bad, really bad. Does this really mean we lost Brunson, the second best pick of that draft, our second best player, for nothing? There is nothing, absolutely nothing positive in this. He is a fanstastic player and played so well with Luka together. It was all clear in the performance of the team and the defense when they played together.
This is clearly a huge downgrade for Mavs, and significantly lowers the chances of championship in coming years.
If Mavs get an all-star for the available money, this could be a compensation, but that can no way compensate for loss of Brunson.
(06-29-2022, 02:05 AM)burekemde Wrote: [ -> ]This is bad, really bad. Does this really mean we lost Brunson, the second best pick of that draft, our second best player, for nothing? There is nothing, absolutely nothing positive in this. He is a fanstastic player and played so well with Luka together. It was all clear in the performance of the team and the defense when they played together.
This is clearly a huge downgrade for Mavs, and significantly lowers the chances of championship in coming years.
If Mavs get an all-star for the available money, this could be a compensation, but that can no way compensate for loss of Brunson.
Mavs have no available money. It´s Brunson for air.
(06-28-2022, 10:16 PM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]https://twitter.com/CBAMavs/status/1541979717917478912
Knicks doing Knick things. I do love Brunson and always have. But, come on now. He was a defensive liability in the playoffs. This is Luka's team and JB was an undersized redundant player. They should have traded him at the deadline. But, it could be that the Knicks wanted to just wait and take their chances in FA. The Mavs will be just fine. I actually think they will be better with more size on the floor in place of Brunson and adding Wood.
I want to see what they do to add wing depth. That and I want to see how THJ and Dinwiddie play this coming year.
I want it on record that I consider JB a very good role player and not worth anywhere near the money he will get. Mavs are doing the right thing letting him go.
(06-29-2022, 02:59 AM)audiosway Wrote: [ -> ]Knicks doing Knick things. I do love Brunson and always have. But, come on now. He was a defensive liability in the playoffs. This is Luka's team and JB was an undersized redundant player. They should have traded him at the deadline. But, it could be that the Knicks wanted to just wait and take their chances in FA. The Mavs will be just fine. I actually think they will be better with more size on the floor in place of Brunson and adding Wood.
I want to see what they do to add wing depth. That and I want to see how THJ and Dinwiddie play this coming year.
I want it on record that I consider JB a very good role player and not worth anywhere near the money he will get. Mavs are doing the right thing letting him go.
Brunson at $32M + minimum level veteran center $2M = Brunson at $22M + $12M Powell.
Good thing the Mavs didn´t let Powell go. It was the right thing.
(06-29-2022, 03:09 AM)Mavs2021 Wrote: [ -> ]Brunson at $32M + minimum level veteran center $2M = Brunson at $22M + $12M Powell.
Good thing the Mavs didn´t let Powell go. It was the right thing.
I'm fine with Powell going. No problem there. Brunson at anything above $18-20 million per year is an overpay. They should have extended Brunson at 4/$55 or traded him at the deadline. That would have been the smart thing to do. But, they didn't. Overpaying him isn't the right thing to do to fix that.
(06-28-2022, 10:18 PM)Fuerza1 Wrote: [ -> ]In 2018-2019, Khris Middleton averaged 18/6/4 on 44/38/84 shooting splits. In the playoffs, he averaged 17/6/4 on 42/44/86 shooting splits. Bucks lost in the ECF. Middleton at age 28, got the max contract at $35M AAV. At the time, it was seen as a gross overpay.
"Can't win with Middleton as your #2!" Bucks figured, "hey this is the best we can do, we have no other choice, no one else is coming to sign in MIL." Keep chugging along and hope for the best.
Brunson averaged 18/4/5 on 50/39/85 shooting splits as a starter this season. In the playoffs, he averaged 22/5/4 on 47/35/80 shooting splits. Mavs lost in the WCF. Brunson at age 26, got offered $22M AAV from his incumbent team.
The Mavs made a stupid decision not locking up Brunson earlier on a cheaper contract. But this garbage takes the cake. Brunson isn't on the same level as a 6'7 two way wing who can handle the ball, I don't care what arbitrary numbers you want to throw up. He's not a superstar, he's not an all star. He's a well above average but not great player, who's undersized, highly exploitable on defense, and offensively, is at best an above average playmaker who doesn't make many advanced reads, and scoring wise lives in the mid range with only 3 attempts per game from 3, and only hits catch and shoot at a good percentage, meaning you can probably expect his percentages to drop when he gets less open 3's created for him and has to create them off the dribble himself, which he is just bad at.
I don't think he's a significant difference maker on the court, and his production can be pretty easily covered by Dinwiddie and Wood, if not Dinwiddie alone. If this team signs Dragic, Dinwiddie steps into his role and Dragic backfills, and at best I think we see a minor step back, but likely the teams performance doesn't miss a beat, maybe even continues the incline unhindered. We will see if that is the way it plays out, and if the team drops well down the rankings, I will admit I was wrong about his impact, but I don't think it will.
The biggest impact is losing Brunson the asset by far. I have no doubt that if the Mavs had done the right thing and signed Brunson to a reasonable contract when they could have, he would be the primary piece added in trade talks with teams for any impactful players that become available over the next few years. Because I think the Mavs rightly think his value is better used acquiring a player who would be a much better fit with Luka, than keeping Brunson long term (i.e. someone who plays well above average defense, or is not undersized and actually a true 3 level scorer). But they screwed that up, and they def deserve all the criticism thrown their way for it. But this overrating of Brunson the player is just over the top.
(06-29-2022, 03:19 AM)audiosway Wrote: [ -> ]I'm fine with Powell going. No problem there. Brunson at anything above $18-20 million per year is an overpay. They should have extended Brunson at 4/$55 or traded him at the deadline. That would have been the smart thing to do. But, they didn't. Overpaying him isn't the right thing to do to fix that.
When Kevin Durant left the Warriors, they could have just let him leave for air and saved a massive amount of money. That would have been the Cuban thing. Instead they took on the overpaid contract of D'Angelo Russell. Was he the right player for the Warriors? Absolutely not. They paid a huge amount of luxury tax for this ill-fitting player, later turning him into the even more massive contract of Andrew Wiggins. Many people mocked them for this, including me. Well not much laughing about that now. The Warriors did this because they're a smart franchise, because they recognize you don't just lose assets for nothing, not even "overpaid" ones who don't fit.
In contrast, the Mavs show no recognition of what the proper values of players are whatsoever. They offer unconditional, massive contracts to unproven players. They wildly overpay culture guys who would be 3rd-stringers on any other team. And they lose values rotation players for nothing because "Oh no, we can't overpay
him!" The Mavs are nothing but a three-ring circus franchise, and Mark Cuban is the entire fucking clown car.
(06-29-2022, 03:24 AM)Dundalis Wrote: [ -> ]The Mavs made a stupid decision not locking up Brunson earlier on a cheaper contract. But this garbage takes the cake. Brunson isn't on the same level as a 6'7 two way wing who can handle the ball, I don't care what arbitrary numbers you want to throw up. He's not a superstar, he's not an all star. He's a well above average but not great player, who's undersized, highly exploitable on defense, and offensively, is at best an above average playmaker who doesn't make many advanced reads, and scoring wise lives in the mid range with only 3 attempts per game from 3, and only hits catch and shoot at a good percentage, meaning you can probably expect his percentages to drop when he gets less open 3's created for him and has to create them off the dribble himself, which he is just bad at.
I don't think he's a significant difference maker on the court, and his production can be pretty easily covered by Dinwiddie and Wood, if not Dinwiddie alone. If this team signs Dragic, Dinwiddie steps into his role and Dragic backfills, and at best I think we see a minor step back, but likely the teams performance doesn't miss a beat, maybe even continues the incline unhindered. We will see if that is the way it plays out, and if the team drops well down the rankings, I will admit I was wrong about his impact, but I don't think it will.
The biggest impact is losing Brunson the asset by far. I have no doubt that if the Mavs had done the right thing and signed Brunson to a reasonable contract when they could have, he would be the primary piece added in trade talks with teams for any impactful players that become available over the next few years. Because I think the Mavs rightly think his value is better used acquiring a player who would be a much better fit with Luka, than keeping Brunson long term (i.e. someone who plays well above average defense, or is not undersized and actually a true 3 level scorer). But they screwed that up, and they def deserve all the criticism thrown their way for it. But this overrating of Brunson the player is just over the top.
Well said. Brunson is highly overvalued at this point. He has a mid range and drive game. That’s it. He’s undersized and exploited defensively. Worth maybe half of his contract if he gets $30 million per. He’s less rare than a player like Dorian, so I’ve never seen the whole “2nd best player” thing
From a team building standpoint we want different players. We want to fill the roster with long athletic two way players. Brunson and even Hardaway are outliers when you look at the talent we have been bringing in. Bullock, Dinwiddie, Hardy, Wood, Frank are what we’re looking for. Long wingspan to make it easier defensively
The crime is definitely asset management and losing him for nothing. Nico and Mark will need to answer for this. You have to either 1) trade 2) extend or 3) have certainty you can lock up your own guys. We could’ve got a couple FRP’s or a player back at the deadline. Now, we are in a much worse spot to do what we need to do. Who even wants to play with Luka? Clock is ticking
(06-29-2022, 03:46 AM)Branduil Wrote: [ -> ]When Kevin Durant left the Warriors, they could have just let him leave for air and saved a massive amount of money. That would have been the Cuban thing. Instead they took on the overpaid contract of D'Angelo Russell. Was he the right player for the Warriors? Absolutely not. They paid a huge amount of luxury tax for this ill-fitting player, later turning him into the even more massive contract of Andrew Wiggins. Many people mocked them for this, including me. Well not much laughing about that now. The Warriors did this because they're a smart franchise, because they recognize you don't just lose assets for nothing, not even "overpaid" ones who don't fit.
In contrast, the Mavs show no recognition of what the proper values of players are whatsoever. They offer unconditional, massive contracts to unproven players. They wildly overpay culture guys who would be 3rd-stringers on any other team. And they lose values rotation players for nothing because "Oh no, we can't overpay him!" The Mavs are nothing but a three-ring circus franchise, and Mark Cuban is the entire fucking clown car.
We used to have a competitive advantage at the owner position. Now we clearly have a competitive disadvantage at the owner position. Mark couldn’t even manage a Dairy Queen without there being some sort of sexual assault going on. If we ever win another championship it will be in spite of him
To me, there's 3 dimensions of the Brunson story:
Asset management: Draft a good player on a low pick, develop him over 4 years, then loose him for nothing without any way to replace him. TERRIBLE
Player valuation: ignoring other factors, avoiding to pay Brunson way over 20m annually is correct in my opinion. He's a good offensive player, with some question marks on the defensive end and playmaking abilities. I don't see him at max or near max value. Knicks are overpaying and i think it will hurt them (and Jalen) in the long run.
Basketball: Brunson next to Luka was always a non-ideal combination. Kudos to them to make it work nicely on the offensive side, but not really playing together, but rather taking turns doing their thing. On the defensive side, both had problems. The ideal player next to Luka is a larger guard with good defense, passing and creation abilities and a solid 3pt shoot.
So overall a really bad handling of the situation, but there might be a silver lining about it, IF (big IF) they manage to find a better fit next to Luka, even if it has to wait another year or two.
If Jalen can grow into the full-time lead guard role in New York, will be seen. I have doubts, i think he undervalues the fact that he was not the main focus of opposing coaches's game plans. Wish him the best though, always liked his game.
@"audiosway". The issue is not that Brunson now might be considered an overpay. The issue is a series of bad decisions starting with the previous mgmt not picking up the option to the current mgmt not evaluating a player they saw everyday to not give him a smaller deal earlier that he might have accepted. That is what most are upset about.
You cannot lose your 2nd best shot creator, one who improved tremendously from the last playoffs to this year, and try to just focus on the defensive side. Was JeT a great 2 way player? We would not have a title without him. What great 2 way player do you have confidence that this franchise will correctly evaluate and get? Even if they get and develop one that player will also most probably walk away.
You say this is a good decision. This is the start of Luka looking at the rest of the West and realizing he is on a team going nowhere and working for an incompetent management. He will force a trade sooner than later now.
MacMahon brought up VanFleets old contract as the range the Mavs are willing to go with Brunson‘s annual salary.
Now VanFleet is close to an extension in the $30M/yr range:
https://twitter.com/sportingnewsca/statu...80960?s=21&t=78Q8B_kL7MR4iON9hyMxlw
NY is getting fair market value here for Brunson Imo.
Toronto is a competent, well-run franchise. They value their own players highly, and let them know that they aren't just trade bait.