MavsBoard

Here's hoping the Knicks don't continue to stomp on the Mavs those 2 random times a year.

(07-12-2022, 08:57 PM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: [ -> ]Two problems...money and timing.  If the question is all three coming to Dallas for Brunson's outgoing $12mm, then obviously not.  If the question is one of them to Dallas, any of the three would individually match.  I can't tell by the way it is written what Omahen is saying.

Another problem is timing.  Walker was announced the night of the draft and Noel/Burks was announced before the beginning of Free Agency.  So, are we saying Dallas should have negotiated a S&T with NY before such a call was legal for NY to participate in?  Who knows when Dallas knew what, but they for sure knew there was a problem after the NY/Det deals were made.  Seems unrealistic to pre-negotiate your surrender before you think you've lost.

In order to sign Brunson as a FA, NY had to pay a FRP and two SRP to clear space for Brunson. Something that could be approximately assessed at TDL. It was reported that Dallas FRP was offered at TDL (those SRP too minor deal to bother to report, imho). But I understand, Mavs thought they had a chance to resign him. In the end they thought wrong, which is their job not to do. 

As for the summer. Are we really so naive to think teams don't talk about FA before the free agency? And are we really so naive Mavs didn't know week(s) before FA that Brunson is gone? It has been even reported they knew. New York was clearing cap space before the start of free agency. Because they didn't know Brunson is coming? 

I mean, if Mavs were so blind, than it screams of FO incompetence. If Mavs thought they can still resign Brunson while New York was paying Detroit to create cap space, it also screams of FO incompetence. I don't think they are so incompetent. At least I hope so.

As for the money, I don't agree they couldn't make all three. Mavs had the TPE and could take either of the three players into it as a separate deal. For example part one - Kemba and the pick in the TPE. I am really not in the mood to go into detail calculations, but my gut tells me that NY got enough cap space by dumping Kemba and Gibson, to execute a legal Brunson for Burks and Noel SnT. Worst case, one of them and the second rounders are going to Detroit and Mavs receive the remaining player. So worst case, Mavs could get two of the players and the FRP. In the summer.

On the NY part, it would be much easier for NY, to make a deal only with Dallas, without bringing the third team in.

Dan's got it right. The timing doesn't work.

The tampering and collusion issues would have been problematic. So would the ability to know what hasn't happened yet.

The Kemba deal only scratched the surface, and signaled that the NY intent to try to get JB was real, but it was far from enough cap room, so it mostly just showed they were trying. Getting rid of Kemba was only at the cost of a swap of FRP's (so it didn't cost that much) and didn't show any extreme commitment to the JB chase at that point. It was nowhere near any kind of all-in move.

The 2nd deal with DET was more of a commitment, and once that was done, it seemed that NY must be fairly sure.  But until then, with NY still lacking that last 20M in space before that deal, how can the Mavs know NY will be getting Brunson, and be able to have the space to do so, until the 2nd swap has been made? They can't. And once it has already been made, the cap-room clearing deal (with NY sending out Burks, Noel, 2 SRPs - with one SRP coming back the other way) isn't an option for the Mavs to do themselves.

We want to suppose that NY would have preferred to do it with DAL. But why? They didn't need Dallas.

Those are the big issues, but there are more.

Given the past experiences, I have big questions about whether the Mavs would have had any interest in Noel anyhow. And Burks is coming off surgery. Getting those 2, to only net a measly SRP, while also bumping your payroll and tax by about $95M total, isn't that enticing.

There would have been match complications too. Not that it's possible, but if DAL had had that super Future Vision thing to magically replace DET in clearing that last 20M of room for NY, Brunson's salary didn't trade match Noel-Burks anyhow for DAL, nor did Burks-Noel match Brunson for NY, so it would have been a complicated deal needing more players and perhaps more teams in order to do. Sometimes those extra added players and teams are easy to include, but other times they kill deals. Why would NY want to be bothered with that, when the DET option was so easy and cheap?

Being upset with how Dallas finished the Brunson race is totally forgetting that they started the race naked and ran backwards at the starting gun.

(07-13-2022, 02:58 AM)F Gump Wrote: [ -> ]Getting rid of Kemba was only at the cost of a swap of FRP's

My bad. It was the pick swap and 4 second rounders that cost NY to dump Kemba. So all together it cost NY 6 SRP for dumping the three. The SRP coming back to NY from Detroit is a "fake one", protected 30-55. 

(07-13-2022, 02:58 AM)F Gump Wrote: [ -> ]We want to suppose that NY would have preferred to do it with DAL. But why? They didn't need Dallas.

I am just tired of Mavs. Whole season we are listing ideas here, some extremely complicated. But once we have all the data on the table, all it is done is stating reasons why it couldn't be done. You just made a huge speech on negotiation skills and closing deals only a couple of days ago. 

I think, both Mavs and New York knew well before FA and draft where Brunson is going. It is their job to know and it was reported Mavs knew. NY not only dumped Kemba on draft night, but also sold their #11 for future FRP, to open cap space. They bought #13 in a separate move to dump Kemba. I don't think NY would go through all that troubles if they didn't know why they need to dump him. That Kemba move was extremely complicated so I can't agree the Detroit part was easy for NY.

So, working under assumption they knew, it is just a question of wanting it. If Mavs were interested to get something for Dallas, they could pull it off. It is not impossible. They could/should convince NY to work with them. There are many ways those deals could be constructed using the TPE and SnT. It is just a matter of pulling it off. Convincing them they are the partner. Closing the deal.

It is really difficult to get all the numbers before the deals are done for me. But roughly and please correct me if I ma wrong. Burks as highest salary could go into TPE. That leaves roughly 18,5 mil of salary coming to Dallas. I think Brunson outgoing is 14 mil. Doesn't that mean that this fits into the 14 mil + 5 mil rule for Dallas? Dallas outgoing 14 mil, incoming 18,5 mil. As for the NY part. They would have how much cap space by dumping Burks, #11 and Gibson? Wouldn't that be north of 10 mil, so enough to match the incoming 28 mil of Brunson with outgoing Kemba+Noel.

Not even to mention, that all of agreed things with Detroit/Brunson could be reworked a bit to make it happen with Dallas without anyone really suffering any loss. 

(07-13-2022, 02:58 AM)F Gump Wrote: [ -> ]Given the past experiences, I have big questions about whether the Mavs would have had any interest in Noel anyhow. And Burks is coming off surgery. Getting those 2, to only net a measly SRP, while also bumping your payroll and tax by about $95M total, isn't that enticing.

I think it is 6 SRP and a pick swap. Of course I don't have the details of Burks health status, but it didn't seem like his injury is something serious. It seems "half" the league have some sort of maintenance surgeries during summer. He is certainly a useful player for Mavs to take some burden from Bullock and DFS. I don't see anyone on Mavs roster that would be better for that. As for Noel and Kemba - Mavs could just cut them, if they didn't like them. Same thing Detroit will do with Kemba. So Mavs would have a wing, pick swap and 6 SRP.

(07-13-2022, 02:58 AM)F Gump Wrote: [ -> ]Getting those 2, to only net a measly SRP, while also bumping your payroll and tax by about $95M total, isn't that enticing.

Just to add to this. I don't think it is just about the second rounders, but also about the salary level you are operating. These are the numbers form biggest spenders based on Spotrac (didn't check if all moves are already accounted for):

LAC: 191 mil of active cap
GSW: 185 mil
BKN: 178 mil
Mil: 171
Bos: 170
LAL: 166

Mavs are at roughly 163 mil. Adding three expiring deals of Burks, Kemba and Noel would put Mavs on the top of the table making us all proud the owner is really willing to spend to win  However, those three expiring deals are much easier to dangle in any potential trade than the likes of THJ and Bertans, Mavs can do now, before touching the core rotation guys.

(07-13-2022, 01:04 AM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ]It was reported that Dallas FRP was offered at TDL

 I asked you this in another thread: do you have a link of any kind to this report? I personally never saw this.

(07-13-2022, 03:03 AM)cow Wrote: [ -> ]Being upset with how Dallas finished the Brunson race is totally forgetting that they started the race naked and ran backwards at the starting gun.

Best summation of this whole mess.

(07-13-2022, 03:53 AM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ]I am just tired of Mavs. Whole season we are listing ideas here, some extremely complicated. But once we have all the data on the table, all it is done is stating reasons why it couldn't be done. You just made a huge speech on negotiation skills and closing deals only a couple of days ago. 

I think, both Mavs and New York knew well before FA and draft where Brunson is going. It is their job to know and it was reported Mavs knew. NY not only dumped Kemba on draft night, but also sold their #11 for future FRP, to open cap space. They bought #13 in a separate move to dump Kemba. I don't think NY would go through all that troubles if they didn't know why they need to dump him. That Kemba move was extremely complicated so I can't agree the Detroit part was easy for NY.

So, working under assumption they knew, it is just a question of wanting it. If Mavs were interested to get something for Dallas, they could pull it off. It is not impossible. They could/should convince NY to work with them. There are many ways those deals could be constructed using the TPE and SnT. It is just a matter of pulling it off. Convincing them they are the partner. Closing the deal.

It is really difficult to get all the numbers before the deals are done for me. But roughly and please correct me if I ma wrong. Burks as highest salary could go into TPE. That leaves roughly 18,5 mil of salary coming to Dallas. I think Brunson outgoing is 14 mil. Doesn't that mean that this fits into the 14 mil + 5 mil rule for Dallas? Dallas outgoing 14 mil, incoming 18,5 mil. As for the NY part. They would have how much cap space by dumping Burks, #11 and Gibson? Wouldn't that be north of 10 mil, so enough to match the incoming 28 mil of Brunson with outgoing Kemba+Noel.

Not even to mention, that all of agreed things with Detroit/Brunson could be reworked a bit to make it happen with Dallas without anyone really suffering any loss. 

I think it is 6 SRP and a pick swap. Of course I don't have the details of Burks health status, but it didn't seem like his injury is something serious. It seems "half" the league have some sort of maintenance surgeries during summer. He is certainly a useful player for Mavs to take some burden from Bullock and DFS. I don't see anyone on Mavs roster that would be better for that. As for Noel and Kemba - Mavs could just cut them, if they didn't like them. Same thing Detroit will do with Kemba. So Mavs would have a wing, pick swap and 6 SRP.

The TPE expired before Brunson could be legally traded.  Also, Dallas doesn't currently have the $5mm spread.  It is only the 125% spread as an over the apron team (a mistake I also made earlier in this process).

I get being frustrated that the team didn't do any of the smart things the board suggested.  It happens every year and as the purveyor of a chunk of those ideas and I get frustrated too.  I'm just saying the particular deal you proposed and Kamm asked about doesn't work.   If you want to argue Dallas should have been smarter, I don't think anyone is arguing with you.  I just don't think this version of how to be smarter is the answer.

(07-13-2022, 06:59 AM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: [ -> ]The TPE expired before Brunson could be legally traded.

I know. I stated it as a separate deal in a previous post. Deal one is one of those guys in the TPE. Deal 2 is the rest.

(07-13-2022, 07:02 AM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ]I know. I stated it as a separate deal in a previous post. Deal one is one of those guys in the TPE. Deal 2 is the rest.

You still have a timing issue as such a deal signals to the league that Brunson and the teams have come to an agreement before an agreement could be discussed.  The second deal still has a BYC issue that is a problem given our status of an over the apron team.  That could have been overcome by involving another team, but NY would have had to pay something more to send out even more salary.

Should Dallas have done something...Sure.  Could they have done this?  I just don't see it.

(07-13-2022, 03:53 AM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ]So Mavs would have a wing, pick swap and 6 SRP.

For the amount of tax money it would have cost Cuban? I'm personally not going to buy a bunch of crap at outrageous over-market prices and I don't expect my team to do it either.

Another angle that's left out in the "what if" scenarios is that New York has all the incentive in the world not to work with Dallas.  Making Dallas a worse team this season benefits the draft position of the pick we owe them.

(07-13-2022, 03:53 AM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ] 
1 I think, both Mavs and New York knew well before FA and draft where Brunson is going. It is their job to know and it was reported Mavs knew. NY not only dumped Kemba on draft night, but also sold their #11 for future FRP, to open cap space. They bought #13 in a separate move to dump Kemba. I don't think NY would go through all that troubles if they didn't know why they need to dump him. That Kemba move was extremely complicated so I can't agree the Detroit part was easy for NY.

So, working under assumption they knew,

2 They could/should convince NY to work with them. 

3 Burks as highest salary could go into TPE.

1 There is no way to know when the Mavs knew, or thought they knew. After the fact, it's a face-saving move to say "Well, we already knew it for a while." But in real time, is that what they were thinking?

In addition, relative to this discussion, at what point exactly did they really concede, in their own minds? IMO it was the clearing of the cap room - not just trying to get more, but actually having it in hand, that would have started to be persuasive to see NY's level of commitment to getting room. But that happens AFTER those DET deals occur, not before.

2 "They could/should convince NY to work with them."....I think that's a reasonable expectation when (a) you are the ONLY potential trade partner, and (b) what you are willing and have available is far better and easier for the other team than doing nothing. But when there are other teams who are able to offer different competing deals, and might offer a better deal and an easier deal, it's too simplistic to say that you should have just waltzed in and done it instead. That's the discussion mantra here many times, but it just doesn't work like that, to assume that "we could have had that deal." Other teams have their own agendas and it is NOT about including the Mavs.

3 Not true. There was no TPE to use on a July deal. It died back around the draft, back when the reports and consensus were that Brunson was coming back to Dallas. You can't do a Brunson deal of any kind back in June. And NY wanted to be shed of Kemba 1st, not last -- he was the most useless player they had.

Another point that I've never seen made in this whole conversation is that, in criticisms of Donnie for not making Brunson an rFA (you know, like everyone else does), would it have made any difference? Would the Knicks have been afraid that Dallas was going to match? Perhaps. It would have strengthened Dallas's negotiating position. Would the Mavs have matched the contract the Knicks gave Brunson? I think it's pretty clear they wouldn't have, given the rest of what we've seen here. My point - it was terrible GMing, but doesn't seem to have had as big of an impact as people here presume it did.

(07-13-2022, 11:37 AM)Scott41theMavs Wrote: [ -> ]Another point that I've never seen made in this whole conversation is that, in criticisms of Donnie for not making Brunson an rFA (you know, like everyone else does), would it have made any difference? Would the Knicks have been afraid that Dallas was going to match? Perhaps. It would have strengthened Dallas's negotiating position. Would the Mavs have matched the contract the Knicks gave Brunson? I think it's pretty clear they wouldn't have, given the rest of what we've seen here. My point - it was terrible GMing, but doesn't seem to have had as big of an impact as people here presume it did.

I'm not sure what to believe in all the extension talks and moving forward from that point, but Jalen being an RFA would have almost assuredly returned something back to Dallas.

(07-13-2022, 11:37 AM)Scott41theMavs Wrote: [ -> ]Another point that I've never seen made in this whole conversation is that, in criticisms of Donnie for not making Brunson an rFA (you know, like everyone else does), would it have made any difference? Would the Knicks have been afraid that Dallas was going to match? Perhaps. It would have strengthened Dallas's negotiating position. Would the Mavs have matched the contract the Knicks gave Brunson? I think it's pretty clear they wouldn't have, given the rest of what we've seen here. My point - it was terrible GMing, but doesn't seem to have had as big of an impact as people here presume it did.

That's a really good point.

NY went to 3 yrs 80M (AAV 26.7M) w PO for yr 4. And who knows how much farther they might have gone, if they had to.

Meanwhile, the Mavs were thinking of 5 yrs 90M (AAV 18M) to 5 yrs 104M (AAV 21M). The difference to Brunson in money - and in getting to the next, perhaps even bigger deal - is quite significant.

(07-13-2022, 11:37 AM)Scott41theMavs Wrote: [ -> ]Another point that I've never seen made in this whole conversation is that, in criticisms of Donnie for not making Brunson an rFA (you know, like everyone else does), would it have made any difference? Would the Knicks have been afraid that Dallas was going to match? Perhaps. It would have strengthened Dallas's negotiating position. Would the Mavs have matched the contract the Knicks gave Brunson? I think it's pretty clear they wouldn't have, given the rest of what we've seen here. My point - it was terrible GMing, but doesn't seem to have had as big of an impact as people here presume it did.

It has been said a few times. 


What I don’t get is why the TDL is the only moment in time that we could have traded JB. If we went to the Knicks last offseason and made a deal, they would have incentive to do it since they would have a full year with him. The Mavs saw him as a trade chip and pretty much nothing else, which is why they had a limit to how much they would pay him.

I would have loved to see Cuban explain why he didn't match that theoretical restricted offer.  JB did a favor for Cuban by not meeting w/ him.  "See, JB and family wouldn't even let me pitch my negotiable below-market offer!"

(07-13-2022, 11:53 AM)BoredAssistant Wrote: [ -> ]I would have loved to see Cuban explain why he didn't match that theoretical restricted offer.  JB did a favor for Cuban by not meeting w/ him.  "See, JB and family wouldn't even let me pitch my negotiable below-market offer!"

It's only my opinion, and I'm sure some will find it unreasonable, but once every opportunity to trade Brunson had passed (TDL, previous off season, whatever), with Luka's rookie max extension kicking in, I believe Cuban should've been prepared to go all the way to Brunson's max to keep him, if that's what it took. He clearly was not, and was just hoping no other team (that Brunson liked) would be able to make a compelling offer. I think Cuban believed that there'd be a dog-and-pony show of interest from either IND or DET, forcing Brunson's price up a little, and he'd re-sign here for about $19-20 million per. 

We'll never know the full extent of what trade opportunities came up for Brunson along the way leading up to this summer, and while you can convince me in a general sense that they might not have been very good opportunities when weighed against the underlined sentence above, you'll never convince me they weren't presented with an opportunity at some point better than losing him for nothing, which, while unfathomable for most of the fans, seems to have been a very real concern for quite awhile. 

Now, maybe willingness to go to Brunson's max wouldn't have made a difference. I can't prove that one way or the other. But, if I'm Cuban and I learn that Brunson is going to NY come hell or high water, you'd better believe I'm getting it out there that "we offered the most we possibly could. More than any other offer, by far. Dude just wanted to go to NY. We wish him well." 

We never heard that. Instead, we got the weak (and false) "we never got to make an offer." If you think Brunson didn't have a clear picture of what both Dallas and NY were offering (and each of the teams a fairly clear picture of what the other was offering) before making this decision, I have a bridge to sell you. 

This spin control approach, to me, signals that in addition to all of the NY connections for Brunson, apparently going back to childhood dreams, the Knicks also valued him more and were very willing to go north of the Mavs' self-imposed price range to prove it. Of course the Mavs lost him, given all of that. And, it's hard to imagine that they didn't have a pretty clear picture of what was about to happen beforehand, given that they're on the inside of all of this. 

Once every opportunity to trade Brunson had passed, with the Mavs' cap situation the way it is (and likely to be for awhile unless they take several steps back with their roster, which is now feeling all too possible in the coming years) I don't think they could afford to let Brunson go, no matter how "overpaid" the contract would've made him. That's the bottom line for me. 

If they had made a better offer than NY, and he had STILL chosen the Knicks, my unhappiness might've been directed more towards Brunson and less towards the Mavs in that scenario.