MavsBoard

(07-09-2022, 10:52 AM)Jakeospikez Wrote: [ -> ]I'd love to see the Mavs pick up Randle if only just to see how badly this board would implode. I think it would be pretty funny.

I'd definitely implode. Don't see where Randle fits on this team as a ball dominant mid range guy that can't space the floor (or even shoot the mid range very well).

Randle has literally had one season where he looked like he might be a winning basketball player and even in that one he collapsed and disappeared in the playoffs.

https://twitter.com/fredkatz/status/1545...94656?s=21&t=-n2zX5_GGIczj09IN2fCQA

(07-09-2022, 10:05 PM)JamesConway912 Wrote: [ -> ]https://twitter.com/fredkatz/status/1545...94656?s=21&t=-n2zX5_GGIczj09IN2fCQA

Welp…

S&T ideas never made sense to me once NY had enough space to sign him outright. What's in it for them? Mavs would have to tip them for the honor of losing their second-best player, and it's unlikely they would use a TPE anyway.

(07-09-2022, 08:26 PM)Branduil Wrote: [ -> ]Randle has literally had one season where he looked like he might be a winning basketball player and even in that one he collapsed and disappeared in the playoffs.

Don't think he's really had a season where he was in the correct role though so I'm not sure the jury is out on him yet. He's definitely going to be like Wiggins if he's the 1st option for a team, won't be pretty. I would want to see what happens if he becomes the 2nd/3rd option for a well-coached playoff caliber team like how Wiggins is on GS. His season with the Pelicans was very efficient playing with AD/Jrue (when they were healthy) with Alvin Gentry who can't hold a job. 55.5% efg, 92nd percentile roll man. If his 3pt% is somewhere inbetween the 34% in NO and the 41% in NYK, he'd be a great offensive player to have. Needs to play 4 though cause he can't be the defensive 5 other than for some specific matchups.

RE: No Sign and Trade

I am not bothered by this. The only thing I ever got excited about was the idea of getting the 2023 pick back. Once that ship sailed I didn't see any real benefit. I don't imagine a TPE ever being able to help the Mavs get a starter level player, so no point in my mind.  

I am comfortable with where the roster is right now. But continue to hold out in hopes for another trade or two.

(07-09-2022, 10:15 PM)Branduil Wrote: [ -> ]S&T ideas never made sense to me once NY had enough space to sign him outright. What's in it for them? Mavs would have to tip them for the honor of losing their second-best player, and it's unlikely they would use a TPE anyway.

Obviously they entertained the idea at length. I think the Gibson and Archidiacono moves have signaled that NY decided to not do it.

NY had an an angle to make it a plus, which is that it would have allowed them to stay an over-cap team and have big MLE plus BAE plus a big TPE. Could have kept Gibson and Archidiacono too with no hassle. But if there aren't players important to you that you would get as result ...

DAL had an angle to make it a plus, which is that (if they found the right higher-salary player) they could have used Brunson's salary as part of the trade match, making it easier to facilitate. It was combinable via the SNT being tied to another deal. But if you don't have that player you want to trade for ...

Both teams could also have banked a decent-sized TPE for use in free agency next summer, which can be very helpful if you don't have cap room and there's a medium-salaried player available to such a team. But if you don't see how, and the other team doesn't want to bother ...

It's possible both teams thought they were helping the other more than themselves, and wanted to be compensated by the other. Maybe both wanted a big win from a SNT, and didn't see a big win. And it doesn't make sense to PAY for a TPE to have for later that you may never use, but at no cost to either, it's hard to see why they wouldn't just cooperate and do it that way.

To me, this is a BAD sign -- not that a TPE is a major deal, but that the Mavs still appear to lack the negotiating skills to close a deal that should have been really easy.

(07-09-2022, 10:58 PM)F Gump Wrote: [ -> ]the Mavs still appear to lack the negotiating skills to close a deal that should have been really easy.

I don't track with this. 

There are just far too many unknowns to say it should have been "easy" for the Mavs to get a SnT done that they liked. It takes two to tango and if Rick Brunson is any indication of the NYK attitude toward DAL, then NYK refusing to work with DAL is the most natural thing. 

And we don't know the rest of the Mavs plans for the summer and once we do it may become really clear why they didn't pursue the SnT path.

(07-09-2022, 11:03 PM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]And we don't know the rest of the Mavs plans for the summer and once we do it may become really clear why they didn't pursue the SnT path.

It's becoming more and more likely that there are no more plans for the Mavs this summer. Especially with Kidd letting it known that Dinwiddie is starting. 

As to the Mavs lack of negotiating skills, two things can be true at once. I think it's very likely NYK made life as difficult as possible for the Mavs, going so far as to making them have to pay for a TPE that likely wouldn't be used. In which case I think it's perfectly valid to not push a SnT and move on. 

I also think it's true that it's up to the negotiator (be it Nico or Cuban) to convince NYK otherwise. The fact that the Mavs weren't able to do so is a knock against Nico (or Cuban) and his ability to close tough deals. There's no other way around this. Especially since move would've benefitted BOTH NYK and DAL.

(07-09-2022, 11:20 PM)SleepingHero Wrote: [ -> ]I also think it's true that it's up to the negotiator (be it Nico or Cuban) to convince NYK otherwise. The fact that the Mavs weren't able to do so is a knock against Nico (or Cuban) and his ability to close tough deals. There's no other way around this. Especially since move would've benefitted BOTH NYK and DAL.

Benefited the Mavs how? By getting them a TPE? But to what end?

And maybe NYK has ZERO desire for the full MLE. 

We have to make assumptions about what both teams want/desire. And frankly we aren't in the position to have a clue about either.

(07-09-2022, 11:20 PM)SleepingHero Wrote: [ -> ]It's becoming more and more likely that there are no more plans for the Mavs this summer. Especially with Kidd letting it known that Dinwiddie is starting.

Kidd saying SD is starting means nothing in my mind. He is being interviewed about their team, so he is speaking to what he can, about what he would plan to do if this is his roster. 

The only time it will start to become "more and more likely" that there are no more plans is once the Durant situation is settled. We know for a fact that the rest of the NBA is currently waiting to see if that is going to resolve this summer. Skin Wade talked about needing to be patient on the "big trade" he thinks the Mavs are working on because of the fact that Durant situation is out there "muddying" everything. 

Once the Durant situation is resolved the clock is ticking on the Mavs and any other possible plans. Till then we just have to wait and be patient realizing the NBA trade world is on pause.

(07-09-2022, 11:03 PM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]I don't track with this. 

There are just far too many unknowns to say it should have been "easy" for the Mavs to get a SnT done that they liked. It takes two to tango and if Rick Brunson is any indication of the NYK attitude toward DAL, then NYK refusing to work with DAL is the most natural thing. 

And we don't know the rest of the Mavs plans for the summer and once we do it may become really clear why they didn't pursue the SnT path.

It would have been easy for the Mavs if they are experts at selling/negotiating, and if they saw it as an opportunity.

But you're right, we can't assume that either of those is true.

There's no question NY would come out ahead (and at no cost to them) by simply saying "Yes, let's do it as a trade." But you're right, the Mavs shouldn't be smart enough to notice and point out the benefits to another team, if they take a freebie, nor expected to be good enough to sell another team on taking that freebie. Nor should they be expected to be smart enough to accept a freebie if offered.

Negotiating has NEVER been this owner's strong suit. But he thinks it is, while botching it every way you can over the years. This feels like either he's still leading the negotiating, or he's teaching Nico how to do it the Cuban way as he learns on the job.

(07-09-2022, 11:35 PM)F Gump Wrote: [ -> ]It would have been easy for the Mavs if they are experts at selling/negotiating, and if they saw it as an opportunity.

But you're right, we can't assume that either of those is true.

There's no question NY would come out ahead (and at no cost to them) by simply saying "Yes, let's do it as a trade." But you're right, the Mavs shouldn't be smart enough to notice and point out the benefits to another team, if they take a freebie, nor expected to be good enough to sell another team on taking that freebie. Nor should they be expected to be smart enough to accept a freebie if offered.

Negotiating has NEVER been this owner's strong suit. But he thinks it is, while botching it every way you can over the years. This feels like either he's still leading the negotiating, or he's teaching Nico how to do it the Cuban way as he learns on the job.

Not sure why there is the need for snark. I hope you don't take this in the wrong way, but it feels like you are acting like "the smartest guy in the room" as much as Cuban does.

What's the freebie to NYK? Getting the full MLE? But wonder if they have no desire to spend that?

What's the benefit to the Mavs doing the SnT? Getting a TPE? But wonder if they have no plan for something like that and already have other plans in the works? 

I just don't see anyway we can make a judgment on the Mavs here. We just do not have enough information on their desires or the desires/attitudes of NYK.

(07-09-2022, 11:41 PM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]Not sure why there is the need for snark. I hope you don't take this in the wrong way, but it feels like you are acting like "the smartest guy in the room" as much as Cuban does.

What's the freebie to NYK? Getting the full MLE? But wonder if they have no desire to spend that?

What's the benefit to the Mavs doing the SnT? Getting a TPE? But wonder if they have no plan for something like that and already have other plans in the works? 

I just don't see anyway we can make a judgment on the Mavs here. We just do not have enough information on their desires or the desires/attitudes of NYK.

I don't think I'm the smartest by any means. The attitude, if any, is kind of a pushback on how you always will try to absolve Cuban and Mavs FO of any lack of skill. ALWAYS, without fail, you try to paint their messes as impossible to avoid, or as unfair, or as unknowable. Here, you want to accuse me of arrogance for daring to point out the glaringly bad situation. Good grief.

When you say here that "I just don't see anyway we can make a judgment on the Mavs here" then, frankly, it seems you are blinded by your bias, Kamm.

I will recite AGAIN what I just posted. But these are points I already gave, and instead of reading them, you ignored them in order to attack me - and then to ask me what I just said. But here we go.
 
I pointed out the benefit to BOTH teams (regardless of whether they could find a bigger angle). NOTE: I assume the Mavs see these benefits, to be able to point them out to NY (hey, let's just do this part anyhow, we both win a little something, it costs us nothing), and to realize them for DAL.

NY would get big MLE, BAE, ability to retain Gibson and rights to Archidiacono, and a 9.165M TPE to use next summer. Even if they otherwise prefer to jettison G & A and only use the room MLE, they get the TPE which MIGHT be helpful in 2023 free agency, never know. Why not have it?

For Mavs, if they can't loop it into another deal, they still get a 12M TPE which they don't have to use, but which MIGHT be helpful in 2023 free agency, never know. Why not have it?

You said "We just do not have enough information on their desires or the desires/attitudes of NYK" and that's really a weak objection -- you're saying that maybe NY didn't accept a freebie and THE MAVS COULDN'T SELL THEM ON ACCEPTING A FREEBIE. Don't you see how weak of an excuse that is, to defend that level of inability?????????

Having those assets doesn't cost either team a thing, doesn't prevent them from anything, doesn't tie up a roster spot, doesn't incur payroll or tax. There literally is NO downside. NONE. It's the no-braineriest trade that ever was for both teams, and if the Mavs can't close THAT deal (or, if they can't say yes when NY wants it), it's incredibly bad. This should be 1st grade level stuff.

(07-09-2022, 11:23 PM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]Benefited the Mavs how? By getting them a TPE? But to what end?

And maybe NYK has ZERO desire for the full MLE. 

We have to make assumptions about what both teams want/desire. And frankly we aren't in the position to have a clue about either.

The Mavs benefit by getting a TPE. To what end depends entirely on how good of a negotiator Nico is. 

Put it this way, if Nico was the best negotiator/salesman on Earth, do you not think he'd be able to convince NYK to do something they don't necessarily "need"?

Isn't that the entire point of a salesman? To sell? 

Nico had to sell the idea of a SnT to NYK. He had to also convince NYK to do it in a way that benefitted the Mavs the most. If he couldn't do it, it's either he isn't good enough of a salesman, or he didn't see the value in a TPE. 

If it's scenario 1 (i.e. not a good salesman), then that kind of sucks but not the end of the world. Just cause someone is a good negotiator doesn't mean they are good at building a championship roster. 

If it's scenario 2, then that's fine as well. TPE's are largely useless and I don't fault Nico for going all out for one. 

But you're right we're just assuming a lot of things here, so whatever.

(07-09-2022, 11:27 PM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]Kidd saying SD is starting means nothing in my mind. He is being interviewed about their team, so he is speaking to what he can, about what he would plan to do if this is his roster. 

The only time it will start to become "more and more likely" that there are no more plans is once the Durant situation is settled. We know for a fact that the rest of the NBA is currently waiting to see if that is going to resolve this summer. Skin Wade talked about needing to be patient on the "big trade" he thinks the Mavs are working on because of the fact that Durant situation is out there "muddying" everything. 

Once the Durant situation is resolved the clock is ticking on the Mavs and any other possible plans. Till then we just have to wait and be patient realizing the NBA trade world is on pause.

The thing is, the Durant situation may not be resolved this summer. Why is BRK in a hurry? Durant is signed to a 4 year deal. Sure he can sit out but he's 34 and his chances of being the "bus driver" on a championship team dwindles with each passing season and his age is rising. Durant and everyone else want this to be done as quickly as possible, and I'm confident that Sean Marks doesn't really care. 

If anything, it makes the MOST sense for Durant to revisit this next summer. BRK can go to him and say "Hey Durant we still got Kyrie for at least another year, we just traded for a solid 3-D guy, just give it 1 more go"

To sit back and be patient for a trade that may never come is just dumb roster building in my mind. Be the proactive team not the reactive team. And you also have to ask yourself, what sort of player can the Mavs be realistically getting that they can't get right now? I'd argue the drop-off isn't that steep. Regarding Skin and his "big trade", I have to see it to believe it. Skin is about as optimistic as a Mav fan there is and is biased. He probably thinks there is a trade in the works, but I don't think he has any sort of real solid info on such a trade or else he'd be leaking it like crazy. See: Kemba, Wright, heck even Deron Williams.

(07-09-2022, 11:20 PM)SleepingHero Wrote: [ -> ]It's becoming more and more likely that there are no more plans for the Mavs this summer.

Agree. Using Brunsons outgoing salary would be an asset for any trade. Everything else is likely more difficult to make now. 

I think it is obvious Mavs don't want to add to tax bill, so I wouldn't expect a trade that increases salary.

(07-10-2022, 01:09 AM)F Gump Wrote: [ -> ]I don't think I'm the smartest by any means. The attitude, if any, is kind of a pushback on how you always will try to absolve Cuban and Mavs FO of any lack of skill. ALWAYS, without fail, you try to paint their messes as impossible to avoid, or as unfair, or as unknowable. Here, you want to accuse me of arrogance for daring to point out the glaringly bad situation. Good grief.

When you say here that "I just don't see anyway we can make a judgment on the Mavs here" then, frankly, it seems you are blinded by your bias, Kamm.

I will recite AGAIN what I just posted. But these are points I already gave, and instead of reading them, you ignored them in order to attack me - and then to ask me what I just said. But here we go.

1) Less than 48 hours ago I wrote about the Mavs failure to tank properly: "Terrible, terrible, terrible stuff by the MBT from 2015-2020. I blame RC for not losing some key, key games that could have changed the direction of the franchise AND Donnie/Cuban for not stockpiling picks and instead relentlessly trying to get to the playoffs when the writing was on the wall." So it 100% infactual that I (as you said inaccurately), "ALWAYS, without fail, you try to paint their messes as impossible to avoid, or as unfair, or as unknowable." That is 100% false as proved by something I said in the last couple days. 

2) I have read your points that you have been restating in multiple threads. I find them completely uncompelling. I don't see the "freebie" as necessarily desirable to the Mavs nor to NYK. Both teams have desires and plans for what they are doing this summer and in the years ahead, plans we cannot even begin to guess at with any level of accuracy. Those "freebies" may fall completely outside of something they want. All it takes is for one of the two teams to say they are not interested and it is over. AND these two teams are in the midst of fighting over a free agent where tampering is clearly involved. There are emotions involved on both sides certainly. So neither side may desire to do any more favors for the other when they do not want the "freebie" in the first place. 

3) All I was attempting to do with my comment about "smartest guy in the room" was to point out the "pot calling the kettle black" situation going on. You constantly attack Cuban's arrogance in this forum. Fine, he may be arrogant because he thinks his way is clearly the only right way. That might be true. But note that in this instance you are doing the exact same thing. There isn't an ounce of humility or admission that what you are seeing here might not be the smartest and most desirable path. And that is doing so from your couch, where you have zero inside information about what the Mavs are actually planning and desiring. If you worked for the Mavs front office that would be very different because you would have access to knowledge and details we don't have as fans. But we are just fans. Our knowledge is incredibly limited. We need the humility to see that. There is so much we simply do not know.

4) You could be right in all this. I just don't think we have enough to know for sure. The failure to execute a SnT might be a terrible sign of things to come. Could be. But I don't think we can be certain.