(02-05-2022, 10:50 AM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]So put on your UTA hat.....what would you want from the Mavs in such an exchange?
I am not sure UTA would do it straight up. Maybe we throw in Green or Powell? Of course, Green would become an all-star next year if we did this.
EDIT: I think it would be easier for Utah to sell their fans on getting someone else besides KP that is healthier.
(02-05-2022, 10:55 AM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]What if UTA comes to you and says:
We want KP + JB (or DFS) for Gobert?
How do you respond? Would you be willing to do one of those? Any counter-offers?
I'd consider those deals, but ultimately I don't think I'd like them. I think Gobert is the best player in the deal, but I'm not as interested if it forces me to retool too much. He's not old, but he's also not young. It would need to be a win-now move, imo.
Maaaaybe DFS. But definitely not Brunson in that scenario. You're going to need his offense too much without Porzingis.
IF they actually want to move Gobert, then I'd think KP would actually look pretty good to them, provided they can handle him missing so many games. I don't think they'd require that much more from Dallas (in this extremely hypothetical scenario I'm fantasizing about that probably, definitely doesn't really exist).
(02-05-2022, 10:59 AM)Davemo Wrote: [ -> ]Maybe we throw in Green or Powell? Of course, Green would become an all-star next year if we did this.
I would add either of those players in a heartbeat.
(02-05-2022, 10:57 AM)Chicagojk Wrote: [ -> ]Also, I have been and am out on Tobias Harris. Nice player. Just really doesn't make a difference. I am not taking other peoples mistakes just because he may be a 20% better player than we currently have. If I am taking on a bad contract, it will be someone much more important than Harris.
Couldn't agree more.
(02-05-2022, 10:59 AM)Davemo Wrote: [ -> ]EDIT: I think it would be easier for Utah to sell their fans on getting someone else besides KP that is healthier.
The thing about Utah is they pretty much have to trade for players locked into deals. One of the few places KP's contract would be viewed as a positive (maybe/hopefully).
If we are fortunate enough to find a taker for KP, the only prerequisite should be to not have 30-40 million tied up in the Center spot for years to come. Pass on Gobert. That contract won’t age well. He’ll be making 47 million in 25-26.
(02-05-2022, 10:55 AM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]I think there is enough of a history there for us to say they aren't just "rumors."
What if UTA comes to you and says:
We want KP + JB (or DFS) for Gobert?
How do you respond? Would you be willing to do one of those? Any counter-offers?
A Gobert for KP deal would be hard to pass up. The issue is Utah doesn't really need Brunson and Royce O'Neale is a similar, but cost controlled version of DFS.
(02-05-2022, 10:59 AM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]I'd consider those deals, but ultimately I don't think I'd like them. I think Gobert is the best player in the deal, but I'm not as interested if it forces me to retool too much. He's not old, but he's also not young. It would need to be a win-now move, imo.
Maaaaybe DFS. But definitely not Brunson in that scenario. You're going to need his offense too much without Porzingis.
IF they actually want to move Gobert, then I'd think KP would actually look pretty good to them, provided they can handle him missing so many games. I don't think they'd require that much more from Dallas (in this extremely hypothetical scenario I'm fantasizing about that probably, definitely doesn't really exist).
I would add either of those players in a heartbeat.
Maaaaybe DFS.
WHAT???? Its DFS man...the God King! 
PS: I am being facetious here. Gobert, while very quircky, would completely change the dynamics of our team and should be highly considered.
(02-05-2022, 10:57 AM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: [ -> ]By "stuff", do we mean DFS? I actually like that deal for Portland. Dallas would get CJ and take Nance into their TPE.
I think losing DFS would leave a large hole for Mavs. I don't think Bullock is on same level defensively. If I am building a win now team, than I keep DFS. McCullom is a win now move for me.
I was thinking more about salary filler. If it is Green (THJ and Green is just a tiny bit short), then I don't really send draft assets. If it is Burke, it would be of course needed to send picks.
(02-05-2022, 10:57 AM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: [ -> ]Nothing says Portland is going cheap forever. In fact, if they want to keep Lillard, they will have to spend some money to keep Simons. Finney-Smith would fit in very nicely on their team.
With the Powell deal and if they dump Bledsoe, they only have 104 mil committed for next season. Possible to keep Simons, Nurkic and stay below tax line. THJ and DFS combined might make more money next season than CJ.
(02-05-2022, 10:57 AM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: [ -> ]Of course, the other approach to CJ would be something KP based.
I am not enthusiastic. I totally agree with everyone that CJ brings a lot of questions. That is why I am willing to trade for him if the price is low. If the move makes us better short term.
(02-05-2022, 11:05 AM)Okstate819 Wrote: [ -> ]If we are fortunate enough to find a taker for KP, the only prerequisite should be to not have 30-40 million tied up in the Center spot for years to come. Pass on Gobert. That contract won’t age well. He’ll be making 47 million in 25-26.
I understand this perspective, I really do. You might be right. But, in the meantime? You'd be adding a HUGE defensive difference maker (and someone who'd fit really well with Luka on offense) to an already improving Dallas defense.
You could argue that a true defensive difference maker could instantly vault this team into the conversation, and two of the three best defensive presences in the league are available right now.
(02-05-2022, 11:05 AM)Davemo Wrote: [ -> ]Maaaaybe DFS.
WHAT???? Its DFS man...the God King!
I would include DFS sooner than Brunson in that deal because you'd be upgrading on the defensive end, and short term I think losing Brunson and KP (with THJ already being lost) pretty much ends the season.
And, there's no question that Gobert is better/more special than DFS.
But, I honestly do think replacing DFS would be much harder than people think. Bullock is no substitute - that much should be beyond clear.
(02-05-2022, 11:09 AM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]I understand this perspective, I really do. You might be right. But, in the meantime? You'd be adding a HUGE defensive difference maker (and someone who'd fit really well with Luka on offense) to an already improving Dallas defense.
You could argue that a true defensive difference maker could instantly vault this team into the conversation, and two of the three best defensive presences in the league are available right now.
I agree.
One thing to note, the way our defensive rotation works, we don't see KP having to cover the lane and get out to the 3 point line very often. The rotation to the corner comes from the wing instead (which is why Green and Frank and Bullock are valuable...they do this really well). I assume we'd do the same thing for Gobert, which neutralizes one of the anti-Gobert arguments (same for Turner BTW).
(02-05-2022, 11:13 AM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: [ -> ]One thing to note, the way our defensive rotation works, we don't see KP having to cover the lane and get out to the 3 point line very often. The rotation to the corner comes from the wing instead (which is why Green and Frank and Bullock are valuable...they do this really well). I assume we'd do the same thing for Gobert, which neutralizes one of the anti-Gobert arguments (same for Turner BTW).
Good point. And tbh, even if teams DO figure out a way to force Dallas into those situations, both Gobert and Turner seem to be more suited for success with that than KP. It's counterintuitive in Gobert's case, I know, but he moves way more quickly than Porzingis in the defensive half-court.
Gobert is an all NBA defender all star. His contract is huge, but he is sort of justifying it. KP is oft injured good player (but not an all star) on expensive three year deal. Gobert and Mitchell might be fighting, but I see no way this would be a reason for Utah to sell Gobert way below his market price.
Besides, I am not a believer. I think his lack of offense gets exposed in the playoffs, if the opponent chooses to play small ball and bring him out of the paint. His defensive strength is help defense, which is taken away if you go 5 out offense. Perfectly demonstrated by Clippers last playoffs.
(02-05-2022, 11:16 AM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ]Gobert is an all NBA defender all star. His contract is huge, but he is sort of justifying it. KP is oft injured good player (but not an all star) on expensive three year deal. Gobert and Mitchell might be fighting, but I see no way this would be a reason for Utah to sell Gobert way below his market price.
Besides, I am not a believer. I think his lack of offense gets exposed in the playoffs, if the opponent chooses to play small ball and bring him out of the paint. His defensive strength is help defense, which is taken away if you go 5 out offense. Perfectly demonstrated by Clippers last playoffs.
Ok, but if it were available, would you do KP/Gobert straight up? From Dallas' perspective, not Utah's.
(02-05-2022, 11:18 AM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]Ok, but if it were available, would you do KP/Gobert straight up? From Dallas' perspective, not Utah's.
I think he's saying he would do it. But, that isn't the question. The question is what do you have to add to beat out 15 other bidders.
(02-05-2022, 11:18 AM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]Ok, but if it were available, would you do KP/Gobert straight up? From Dallas' perspective, not Utah's.
I am really not a Gobert fan, so very difficult question for me, trying to be objective. At this moment, Gobert clearly has more value than KP. On the other hand I think investing so much money into a non shooter (PnR is basically his only offensive skill) makes it very difficult to build a true contender in modern basketball. So if lets say Mavs fail with Gobert in two campaigns, he would still have 3 years of his contract left at age 31. Would he still be easy to move then or would he be an anchor holding Mavs down for three more years? I would prefer to look for a three way deal sending Gobert somewhere else
(02-05-2022, 11:25 AM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: [ -> ]I think he's saying he would do it. But, that isn't the question. The question is what do you have to add to beat out 15 other bidders.
Again, all speculation and all wildly wrong, but...
If I'm Utah and I've decided to move on from Gobert out of chemistry-based necessity, and not because I want to, I'm looking to fit someone right into the hole he'd create. To me, KP is one of the few plausibly available players who could do that - maybe the only one, now that Turner is down with that injury. I might require a little bit of a sweetener (more on the Green level, less on the DFS/Brunson level, I hope) but KP is looking pretty good to me, I think. That team might even benefit from what passes for offensive creation in KP's case.
Honestly, I don't think it's crazy. But, maybe I'M crazy.
(02-05-2022, 11:26 AM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ]I am really not a Gobert fan, so very difficult question for me, trying to be objective. At this moment, Gobert clearly has more value than KP. On the other hand I think investing so much money into a non shooter (PnR is basically his only offensive skill) makes it very difficult to build a true contender in modern basketball. So if lets say Mavs fail with Gobert in two campaigns, he would still have 3 years of his contract left at age 31. Would he still be easy to move then or would he be an anchor holding Mavs down for three more years? I would prefer to look for a three way deal sending Gobert somewhere else
So that's a "no." Fair enough.
I think having a 5 who wanted/needed to play pnr with Luka might actually make this offense BETTER, but it's all speculation.
Gobert is not Luka or Ja. You make a fair offer for him without going overboard. If other teams have better offers, you move on. No need to get into a bidding war.
This has probably already been discussed so I apologize if so. Would anyone consider a KP for Tobias trade? I would not consider it if KP were less injury prone because of all that he adds. BUT, he is injury prone...and I think he always will be. Tobias, on the other hand, is definitely overpaid but he does play and does give you something on a consistent basis. Both are bad contracts. I am not sure of the Tobias contract but I seem to remember 35MM plus (not sure about the years left). I realize PHI might not want KP with Embid there, but I am using this more as a thought exercise. I might consider this ONLY because I do not trust the health of KP.....and I dont consider this a dump trade.
Bad contract, great(ish) player, really injury prone
OR
Bad contract, solid player, mostly healthy
Any thoughts? If you still believe CJ is great (ish) and healthy, you could use him as the comparison.
(02-05-2022, 11:32 AM)hakeemfaan Wrote: [ -> ]Gobert is not Luka or Ja. You make a fair offer for him without going overboard. If other teams have better offers, you move on. No need to get into a bidding war.
I agree with this.
(02-05-2022, 11:29 AM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]I think having a 5 who wanted/needed to play pnr with Luka might actually make this offense BETTER, but it's all speculation.
I think it is not that difficult to defend PnR if you can just switch on defense, because the big doesn't have the skill to punish a smaller guy. Utah has several excellent PnR guys and they couldn't dominate against Clippers small ball. On the other hand, there are not that many teams capable of playing excellent small ball.
(02-05-2022, 11:32 AM)Davemo Wrote: [ -> ]This has probably already been discussed so I apologize if so. Would anyone consider a KP for Tobias trade?
I wouldn't. I think Mavs have no other option but pray KP will be healthy in the playoffs. They will get there, no matter how many games he misses in the regular season. I think everything else makes them worse.
(02-05-2022, 11:36 AM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ]I think it is not that difficult to defend PnR if you can just switch on defense, because the big doesn't have the skill to punish a smaller guy.
Pretty good point.
But with Luka playing as well as he has been recently, I'm fairly ok with the idea of going back to Luka going against the opposing 5 1-on-1 in those situations. I think that would be an improvement over trying to post KP up against wings, actually. If that's the plan, you lose something with Gobert vs. KP, spacing wise, but Idk...I like it, personally.
You're making a good go of the other side of the argument, don't get me wrong.