(02-13-2023, 02:38 PM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]What did I make up?
The part where other teams don´t value him? You just gave an example of another team that wanted to sign him. I gave one as well. We know of two offers from teams that wanted to sign THJ.
The real unknown part are the trade rumors you mentioned. Outside of some vague talk about Caris Levert we have no clue about any offers. No clue what the Mavs wanted in return. What other teams offered. It´s unlikely that the Mavs were interested in draft compensation or expiring contracts. They wanted an upgrade.
An upgrade like Kyle Lowry when they chased him in free agency. And when they couldn´t find an upgrade they were happy to have THJ back.
Is there anything that would support the case that the Mavs tried to dump THJ in the last two years? I don´t think so.
(02-13-2023, 02:34 PM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]Huh? Were we not trying to sign Lowry instead of him (good decision or not) that very offseason? What did I change in that part if the narrative? The offers he passed up from the other teams (you failed to mention NO offer as well), if they wanted him so bad, he was available to be traded to the very next TDL til now (edit: on a contract less than they were once willing to pay). Why is THJ still on this team? I don’t know just the same as you don’t and your guess is not better than mine!
I would argue that the statement "trying not to sign him" is very different than saying we had over 30 mil in cap space and wanted to go big game hunting first. You are couching it like we never wanted him and have been trying desperately to get rid of him. I don't think the evidence supports that.
He was in trade rumors last TDL after he was already out for the season. They were looking to upgrade playoff depth and considering we basically ran a 6 man rotation that makes sense. They didn't get what they considered value and didn't make the trade.
He was in trade rumors this TDL as well. So were Wood and Dorian (who actually got traded). That does not mean nobody wants him. That means the Mavs were willing to trade him if it improved the team. They did not get an offer they liked and he stayed on the team.
You are right that nobody knows exactly why he is still on the team, but you seemed to be arguing that because he was in trade rumors for two years he has no value on the court.
Man...just so much dancing around the THJ issue with stats and lengthy explanations...
The dudes on court behavior is inexcusable. Its not winning basketball and IF IF IF it is for OUR team...I would rather change the offense then.
Bad decision after bad decision along with low skill equals winning basketball to statisticians. What a time to be alive!
Lets make it as triggery and scummy as possible for profit!
(02-13-2023, 02:58 PM)dynamicalVoid Wrote: [ -> ]Man...just so much dancing around the THJ issue with stats and lengthy explanations...
The dudes on court behavior is inexcusable. Its not winning basketball and IF IF IF it is for OUR team...I would rather change the offense then.
Bad decision after bad decision along with low skill equals winning basketball to statisticians. What a time to be alive!
Lets make it as triggery and scummy as possible for profit!
Posts with detailed explanations and stats to back up cases are clearly the problem. Why can´t we have more superficial discussions.
No one in the league provides better spacing then THJ lol
(02-13-2023, 02:30 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]THJ is one of the top 6 players on this team, easy. Sorry, it's just a fact.
I would say definitely top 8 and mayyyybe top 6 depending on how you view Bullock/Wood/Powell but I agree with your take overall.
I've been in the camp that Hardaway has simply not been good enough in his role up to this point this season but I'm excited to see what his role looks like moving forward. I think our biggest issue was that Hardaway was basically being used as the third or second most important piece on offense and he just wasn't playing up to that level at all this season (he had in previous seasons here). I think Green's emergence which seems to be pretty official now is going to move Hardaway into a role more suited for him as more of a 4th option on the floor. His defense is more than passable this year and he's the only guy on this team who takes charges so I think he'll do well as more of a strictly spot up shooter as opposed to being the second main offensive creator on the floor. Will be interesting to see how they handle him this offseason because now we're at the point in his contract where you can argue you're getting decent value out of him if he's placed in the correct role but he's also the easiest salary number to pair in a trade.
(02-13-2023, 03:04 PM)dirkfansince1998 Wrote: [ -> ]Posts with detailed explanations and stats to back up cases are clearly the problem. Why can´t we have more superficial discussions.
It's pointless to respond to him on this. He created a thread just to bitch about Timmy.
(02-13-2023, 03:17 PM)StrandedOnBeauboisHill Wrote: [ -> ]I would say definitely top 8 and mayyyybe top 6 depending on how you view Bullock/Wood/Powell but I agree with your take overall.
I've been in the camp that Hardaway has simply not been good enough in his role up to this point this season but I'm excited to see what his role looks like moving forward. I think our biggest issue was that Hardaway was basically being used as the third or second most important piece on offense and he just wasn't playing up to that level at all this season (he had in previous seasons here). I think Green's emergence which seems to be pretty official now is going to move Hardaway into a role more suited for him as more of a 4th option on the floor. His defense is more than passable this year and he's the only guy on this team who takes charges so I think he'll do well as more of a strictly spot up shooter as opposed to being the second main offensive creator on the floor. Will be interesting to see how they handle him this offseason because now we're at the point in his contract where you can argue you're getting decent value out of him if he's placed in the correct role but he's also the easiest salary number to pair in a trade.
Completely disagree with this take.
Im a casual and I would never trade for this player. His shooting percentage doesnt warrant sweeping all his negatives under the rug.
There are equally as good shooters scattered all around the league that become available every year for cheaper prices. There is some weird stigma that THJ is some Curry like shooter and it just isnt the case. If defenses are closing space on him...I am shocked that a multi billion dollar industry with very competitive coaching salaries allows tight defenses on bad shooters or why offenses would play bad players.
What a time to be alive.
(02-13-2023, 03:21 PM)mvossman Wrote: [ -> ]It's pointless to respond to him on this. He created a thread just to bitch about Timmy.
Lying and dancing is convenient isnt it.
Jesus. Christian Wood gets no respect from Kidd, the front office, 90% of “fans” and now he has to give his own thread to THJ?
(02-13-2023, 03:29 PM)StrandedOnBeauboisHill Wrote: [ -> ]What in the world...
This is the point where I would like to point out that we have an ignore function.
(02-13-2023, 02:52 PM)dirkfansince1998 Wrote: [ -> ]The part where other teams don´t value him? You just gave an example of another team that wanted to sign him. I gave one as well. We know of two offers from teams that wanted to sign THJ.
The real unknown part are the trade rumors you mentioned. Outside of some vague talk about Caris Levert we have no clue about any offers. No clue what the Mavs wanted in return. What other teams offered. It´s unlikely that the Mavs were interested in draft compensation or expiring contracts. They wanted an upgrade.
An upgrade like Kyle Lowry when they chased him in free agency. And when they couldn´t find an upgrade they were happy to have THJ back.
Is there anything that would support the case that the Mavs tried to dump THJ in the last two years? I don´t think so.
So, 2 years is not the actual time frame I’m actually using. I’m using the time from when he signed with us to now (2 TDLs worth of info). We know he was in trade rumors both times, we don’t know if he was shopped in the offseason, but know no one offered anything of importance for him at any one stop along the way. If a team valued him the way the Mavs do, he would be gone. What did I make up there? Those teams who offered him a bigger contract are now not biting even though they could now have him on a lesser contract. Is yhat so hard to understand?
(02-13-2023, 02:58 PM)mvossman Wrote: [ -> ]I would argue that the statement "trying not to sign him" is very different than saying we had over 30 mil in cap space and wanted to go big game hunting first. You are couching it like we never wanted him and have been trying desperately to get rid of him. I don't think the evidence supports that.
He was in trade rumors last TDL after he was already out for the season. They were looking to upgrade playoff depth and considering we basically ran a 6 man rotation that makes sense. They didn't get what they considered value and didn't make the trade.
He was in trade rumors this TDL as well. So were Wood and Dorian (who actually got traded). That does not mean nobody wants him. That means the Mavs were willing to trade him if it improved the team. They did not get an offer they liked and he stayed on the team.
You are right that nobody knows exactly why he is still on the team, but you seemed to be arguing that because he was in trade rumors for two years he has no value on the court.
If he is anything but option A, they very well are “trying not to sign him”, why do I have to explain that? We did sign him and ever since have been trying to find a team that likes him as much as we do. We haven’t found 1. Why is it then a sin to say nobody values him the way we do in an argument against a point made that said the Mavs value him more than the fans do. I made the statement to combat that point.
Stats dont account for bad decisions or low skill.
No one can answer why THJ is allowed to play poorly but Green and Hardy and Wood get yanked.
THJ, im sorry...I mean Tim Curry Jr, is the best spacer the world has to offer according to stats.
Gotta use your own intuition and assume its some scummy trigger scenario being the main objective over Mavs basketball. Lying is convenient.
(02-13-2023, 03:48 PM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]If he is anything but option A, they very well are “trying not to sign him”, why do I have to explain that? We did sign him and ever since have been trying to find a team that likes him as much as we do. We haven’t found 1. Why is it then a sin to say nobody values him the way we do in an argument against a point made that said the Mavs value him more than the fans do. I made the statement to combat that point.
Maybe because you act like the Mavs tried to dump him for the last two years. Have seen no prove that this is the case.
All trade talks aren´t equal. Why are they trying to move a guy that is curently starting? Just for the sake of it? No. Just like in free agency when they chased after Lowry they are looking for an upgrade.
But that´s not really how this discussion started. Coming back to it. The coaching staff views THJ as a starter or at least a valuable rotation player. That´s his current standing. That´s his role. He is playing 30mpg. And that´s nothing new. Has been the case since his 2nd season in Atlanta. Indicating that teams value his contribution. Otherwise he wouldn´t be playing as much.
Based on the takes that I am reading on this board he shouldn´t be playing at all. Clearly the coaches don´t agree.
(02-13-2023, 03:48 PM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]If he is anything but option A, they very well are “trying not to sign him”, why do I have to explain that? We did sign him and ever since have been trying to find a team that likes him as much as we do. We haven’t found 1. Why is it then a sin to say nobody values him the way we do in an argument against a point made that said the Mavs value him more than the fans do. I made the statement to combat that point.
I simply don't agree with your first sentence. If they had 10 choices in free agency that they ordered options A through J in preference, you would never word that as saying they are trying not to do option B. As far as we know, Lowery was the only guy they went after before very quickly reverting to Timmy.
It would not be surprising if the Mavs valued Timmy more than most orgs because some of his value is in the locker room, and most other orgs only know that by rumor. Also, even if another org does value him as much it does not mean a deal will get done because there issues of valuation on the other side. A lot has to go right for trades to happen and I would not consider Timmy not getting traded as a lack of desirability be other orgs.
I will agree that no one appears willing to do 2 things need to acquire THJ in trade:
A) pay his 30 million outstanding in salary
B) give up a player (s) that Dallas deems worthy of moving on from THJ to acquire.
however, it does not mean THJ is completely worthless, just that not everyone agrees on that worth. Dallas seems comfortable (or at least not begrudging) to allow him to play in a wing shooting position and there is ample evidence that his effectiveness diminished greatly when that role was not as a starter. I would say that he needs to be a starter to maximize his role. I don't know that I like that, but it is what it is when you trade your best wing... Terence Ross got signed by PHX and he was a pretty close analogy to the type of player THJ is. Borderline overpaid, not very adaptable to differing roles without sacrificing production, but not completely worthless either.
(02-13-2023, 03:48 PM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]If he is anything but option A, they very well are “trying not to sign him”, why do I have to explain that? We did sign him and ever since have been trying to find a team that likes him as much as we do. We haven’t found 1. Why is it then a sin to say nobody values him the way we do in an argument against a point made that said the Mavs value him more than the fans do. I made the statement to combat that point.
(02-13-2023, 04:09 PM)dirkfansince1998 Wrote: [ -> ]Maybe because you act like the Mavs tried to dump him for the last two years. Have seen no prove that this is the case.
All trade talks aren´t equal. Why are they trying to move a guy that is curently starting? Just for the sake of it? No. Just like in free agency when they chased after Lowry they are looking for an upgrade.
But that´s not really how this discussion started. Coming back to it. The coaching staff views THJ as a starter or at least a valuable rotation player. That´s his current standing. That´s his role. He is playing 30mpg. And that´s nothing new. Has been the case since his 2nd season in Atlanta. Indicating that teams value his contribution. Otherwise he wouldn´t be playing as much.
Based on the takes that I am reading on this board he shouldn´t be playing at all. Clearly the coaches don´t agree.
I didn’t act like they tried to “dump” him, that’s you reading into what I said. They HAVE however tried to trade him for at least the last 2 TDLs (maybe the offseason, but there were no reports so we leave that out). That’s not nothing.
I’m in agreement that if he is on the team, he should be starting and playing with Luka as much as possible. I believe that mostly because he is so much worse in a bench role. I’m not sure exactly why that is (attitude issue or what?). You can’t say that his dip in the last 2 years in 3% is anything but a negative regardless of the effect his presence on the floor has.
To bring this back on thread topic, I don’t get why THJ gets all the leeway he gets while a player like Wood doesn’t. To me, he hasn’t in any way gotten a fair shake at getting to play like he wants, or in a more compromising way to get enough data to see what his effect is on the floor. There’s a lot of talk about his attitude and then ignoring what might be the same in THJ.
(02-13-2023, 04:22 PM)mvossman Wrote: [ -> ]I simply don't agree with your first sentence. If they had 10 choices in free agency that they ordered options A through J in preference, you would never word that as saying they are trying not to do option B. As far as we know, Lowery was the only guy they went after before very quickly reverting to Timmy.
It would not be surprising if the Mavs valued Timmy more than most orgs because some of his value is in the locker room, and most other orgs only know that by rumor. Also, even if another org does value him as much it does not mean a deal will get done because there issues of valuation on the other side. A lot has to go right for trades to happen and I would not consider Timmy not getting traded as a lack of desirability be other orgs.
You are either trying to sign someone or you aren’t, getting to any fallback option is not the intent of the organization. Say whatever you want, it’s the tea leaves I’m reading.