(01-01-2023, 05:37 PM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]I think Kidd COULD have continued with starting DP, but the writing was on the wall. Kidd was backed into a corner IMO with the poor performance of the team overall and the good performance of Wood. The media had been hounding him about starting Wood for literally weeks and there was no way he could hold out IMO without sabotaging his own place in DAL to an extent.
This is what I still believe about Wood and Kidd:
1) I think it is clear Kidd wanted McGee and thought he was what this team needed and promised him the starting role (and a three year contract---absolutely embarrassing from every angle).
2) I think Kidd was not 100% behind the Wood trade and that he did not see Wood as a center or a long term fit for this team.
3) I think Kidd played his favorite players (I think there is a long track record of this being the case) to start the season in a way that ultimately hurt the win/loss record of this team.
4) I think Kidd finally changed up, only because of injuries and him realizing that he was sabotaging himself and the team.
5) I do not believe Kidd was trying to "sabotage" Wood, NOT ONE BIT. I just think Kidd truly believed he knew best on the personnel front, and he was going to prove that to people. But time proved him to be wrong, REALLY wrong. Thankfully injuries happened and he adjusted and did not completely sink the ship with his ego.
6) I think this team would be about 26-11 (and top of the West) if Kidd would have played Wood like he is now off the bat. There would have been growing pains (of course!) but I think about 5 more wins were there for the taking.
7) I think Kidd is really poor in personnel evaluations overall. I think he is an average coach, having some strengths for sure, but some really clear weaknesses. I think his ego and his belief in his own rightness is his greatest weakness.
Good points Kamm... I think #7 could be #1.
(01-01-2023, 05:37 PM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]I think Kidd COULD have continued with starting DP, but the writing was on the wall. Kidd was backed into a corner IMO with the poor performance of the team overall and the good performance of Wood. The media had been hounding him about starting Wood for literally weeks and there was no way he could hold out IMO without sabotaging his own place in DAL to an extent.
This is what I still believe about Wood and Kidd:
1) I think it is clear Kidd wanted McGee and thought he was what this team needed and promised him the starting role (and a three year contract---absolutely embarrassing from every angle).
2) I think Kidd was not 100% behind the Wood trade and that he did not see Wood as a center or a long term fit for this team.
3) I think Kidd played his favorite players (I think there is a long track record of this being the case) to start the season in a way that ultimately hurt the win/loss record of this team.
4) I think Kidd finally changed up, only because of injuries and him realizing that he was sabotaging himself and the team.
5) I do not believe Kidd was trying to "sabotage" Wood, NOT ONE BIT. I just think Kidd truly believed he knew best on the personnel front and he was going to prove that to people. But time proved him to be wrong, REALLY wrong. Thankfully injuries happened and he adjusted and did not completely sink the ship with his ego.
6) I think this team would be about 26-11 (and top of the West) if Kidd would have played Wood like he is now off the bat. There would have been growing pains (of course!) but I think about 5 more wins were there for the taking.
7) I think Kidd is really poor in personnel evaluations overall. I think he is an average coach, having some strengths for sure, but some really clear weaknesses. I think his ego and his belief in his own rightness is his greatest weakness.
Christian wood was a lazy and soft player who never played defense his whole career and we took a gamble on him because it was our best move at the time.
We knew going in who Wood had been and it was all based on him being on a winning team in a winning organization getting a new start. People can change under different situations
We haven’t started Wood because Kidd needed to make him earn it thereby forcing Wood to prove it defensively(which he’s mostly doing)
The way it’s played out has worked and has actually felt more natural
Im fine with going 1/2 with the big man signings last offseason. Can’t win em all. Still, the jury is out on both players. It’s a long season
Well this thread is going about as expected. Make no mistake. This only ends two ways:
1) Everyone here realizes Wood is him.
2) He gets traded before it clicks in the hater’s heads.
(01-01-2023, 06:59 PM)Jason Terry Wrote: [ -> ]Christian wood was a lazy and soft player who never played defense his whole career
I fundamentally disagree with this. At least on the court. I know nothing of Wood off the court, but I saw him break out in DET and HOU and think this characterization is false.
I really don't get the "lazy" tag on Wood. The guy was UNDRAFTED when expected to be a 1st rounder, then played four seasons mostly in the GLeague with minimal appearances in the NBA, fighting and struggling and working to find a spot in the NBA. A "lazy" player would have given up, but he fought and worked and eventually got a real shot in DET and shined.
Then he got a real NBA contract in HOU and was screwed because that team that had been 4th in the West the year before decided to trade Harden (who played a total of 8 games) and then tank. The culture in HOU went to hell, absolutely no fault of Wood. Of course he was unhappy in HOU, who wouldn't have been?
(01-01-2023, 05:37 PM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]I think Kidd COULD have continued with starting DP, but the writing was on the wall. Kidd was backed into a corner IMO with the poor performance of the team overall and the good performance of Wood. The media had been hounding him about starting Wood for literally weeks and there was no way he could hold out IMO without sabotaging his own place in DAL to an extent.
This is what I still believe about Wood and Kidd:
1) I think it is clear Kidd wanted McGee and thought he was what this team needed and promised him the starting role (and a three year contract---absolutely embarrassing from every angle).
2) I think Kidd was not 100% behind the Wood trade and that he did not see Wood as a center or a long term fit for this team.
3) I think Kidd played his favorite players (I think there is a long track record of this being the case) to start the season in a way that ultimately hurt the win/loss record of this team.
4) I think Kidd finally changed up, only because of injuries and him realizing that he was sabotaging himself and the team.
5) I do not believe Kidd was trying to "sabotage" Wood, NOT ONE BIT. I just think Kidd truly believed he knew best on the personnel front and he was going to prove that to people. But time proved him to be wrong, REALLY wrong. Thankfully injuries happened and he adjusted and did not completely sink the ship with his ego.
6) I think this team would be about 26-11 (and top of the West) if Kidd would have played Wood like he is now off the bat. There would have been growing pains (of course!) but I think about 5 more wins were there for the taking.
7) I think Kidd is really poor in personnel evaluations overall. I think he is an average coach, having some strengths for sure, but some really clear weaknesses. I think his ego and his belief in his own rightness is his greatest weakness.
Kidd has always taken his time in making lineup changes to the point where fans get impatient with him. The fact is almost every major lineup change he has made this season is generally approved by the board, it just sometimes took longer than desired. He has:
Removed McGee from the starting lineup and the rotation all together. I actually think he pulled the trigger on this fairly quickly
Ramped up Greens minutes as he got more and more confident. I thought he handled that perfectly
Removed Bullock from starting lineup. Could have done this sooner, but now we have no point of attack defender in starting lineup
Added Timmy to the starting lineup. Not many folks were clamoring for this, but it certainly seemed to work
Ramped up Woods minutes and moved him to the starting lineup. Clearly not as soon as folks wanted
Kidd's only real big mistake was starting (or even playing) McGee, which probably caused them a couple of losses (don't think it was 5). Powell was terrific in taking over that role and based on net rating or on/off he is actually more positively impactful than Wood. There is not a lot of evidence to suggest that starting Wood instead of Powell would have significantly changed our current win/loss record.
(01-01-2023, 08:35 PM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]I really don't get the "lazy" tag on Wood. The guy was UNDRAFTED when expected to be a 1st rounder, then played four seasons mostly in the GLeague with minimal appearances in the NBA, fighting and struggling and working to find a spot in the NBA. A "lazy" player would have given up, but he fought and worked and eventually got a real shot in DET and shined.
Then he got a real NBA contract in HOU and was screwed because that team that had been 4th in the West the year before decided to trade Harden (who played a total of 8 games) and then tank. The culture in HOU went to hell, absolutely no fault of Wood. Of course he was unhappy in HOU, who wouldn't have been?
Maybe unfocused is a better term, but it was definitely a rep he had when we traded for him. I also think we saw significant evidence of "focus issues" earlier in the season. I think he has improved in that area and attribute some of that progress to Kidd (which I know does not fit your narrative) but I need to see a bigger sample before I can completely trust it.
(01-01-2023, 08:35 PM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]I really don't get the "lazy" tag on Wood. The guy was UNDRAFTED when expected to be a 1st rounder, then played four seasons mostly in the GLeague with minimal appearances in the NBA, fighting and struggling and working to find a spot in the NBA. A "lazy" player would have given up, but he fought and worked and eventually got a real shot in DET and shined.
Then he got a real NBA contract in HOU and was screwed because that team that had been 4th in the West the year before decided to trade Harden (who played a total of 8 games) and then tank. The culture in HOU went to hell, absolutely no fault of Wood. Of course he was unhappy in HOU, who wouldn't have been?
It was a tag placed on him before being undrafted and why he didn’t get picked. I don’t think it’s fair or agree with it. I actually like Wood and think he will succeed here and we should extend him. The defense thing IMO is still a mystery long term but it’s the right gamble betting on Wood. We have no choice after we screwed up with the KP trade
(01-01-2023, 09:55 PM)Jason Terry Wrote: [ -> ]It was a tag placed on him before being undrafted and why he didn’t get picked.
He definitely was known (rightly) for inconsistent effort on D predraft (but who doesn't struggle with that....*cough* Luka *cough*?). But he has ALWAYS been very capable on D when locked in, going back to college. And the knock on him on the offensive end was settling for jumpers and being too thin/weak.
I think the best summary of him not getting drafted can be found in this short quote:
Quote:"concerns about his background and off-court habits caused him to go undrafted"
Wood didn't take care of his body the way he needed to heading into the draft (came in with high body fat and poor eating habits) and I think that caused the myth of him being "lazy" to start. But I think that was quickly proved wrong in how he responded over the next four years of his career.
And a bonus quote from a DET reporter leading into Wood's free agency in 2020 that shows IMO that many have seen his value for years now:
Quote:"keeping Wood should be their top priority."
(01-01-2023, 09:29 PM)mvossman Wrote: [ -> ]Maybe unfocused is a better term, but it was definitely a rep he had when we traded for him. I also think we saw significant evidence of "focus issues" earlier in the season. I think he has improved in that area and attribute some of that progress to Kidd (which I know does not fit your narrative) but I need to see a bigger sample before I can completely trust it.
This 100x +41 +77
Wood has had probably the best stretch in his career these last 2 weeks. 2 weeks of great work on defense does not undo 4 years of mediocre to bad work.
(01-01-2023, 11:21 PM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]He definitely was known (rightly) for inconsistent effort on D predraft (but who doesn't struggle with that....*cough* Luka *cough*?). But he has ALWAYS been very capable on D when locked in, going back to college. And the knock on him on the offensive end was settling for jumpers and being too thin/weak.
I think the best summary of him not getting drafted can be found in this short quote:
Wood didn't take care of his body the way he needed to heading into the draft (came in with high body fat and poor eating habits) and I think that caused the myth of him being "lazy" to start. But I think that was quickly proved wrong in how he responded over the next four years of his career.
And a bonus quote from a DET reporter leading into Wood's free agency in 2020 that shows IMO that many have seen his value for years now:
That Det team might look pretty good right now with Wood staying and being fully acclimated to the team.
It is very easy to see how Wood changes the defense. When in paint he alters many opponents plays and shots even when not directly blocking the shots. Wood provides rim protection and the effect is noticable, we dont see as many easy layups around the rim at least when he is in the paint. I wouldnt say Wood provides elite rim protection like KP did that one season he was at his best defensively. But Wood makes a huge difference in altering the plays and shots, and our defense has lacked that. It is also noticable in number of Woods blocks shots. I think last game started with a block shot from Wood. Rest of the game, the opponents werent that happy driving to the basket. He has a thin frame and that is sometimes an issue he can be pushed around. But I think that is something that can be worked on. He has mobility for a big guy to switch and cover more than a single position. I think that Wood has a ton of potential to improve on defense. I don't see him as a bad defender at all, he has been positive on this side as well.
Tim Cato has a chat with the Houston writer today in the Athletic. It is mostly about Wood.
(01-02-2023, 09:37 AM)Chicagojk Wrote: [ -> ]Tim Cato has a chat with the Houston writer today in the Athletic. It is mostly about Wood.
I hope it's not the guy who thought he should play PF, but it probably is.
(01-02-2023, 11:21 AM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]I hope it's not the guy who thought he should play PF, but it probably is.
The interesting thing looking back on Wood is that coming out of college (2015) he was considered a 3-4 tweener, almost athletic enough to be a 3, but not quite, almost strong enough to be a 4, but not quite.
Then when he was in DET (2019-2020) the question many started asking was "can you play him at center?"
He thrived at PF in DET so much that one reporter said, "he might be Detroit’s best player and greatest hope to develop a future star." But the style of play in the NBA has shifted a LOT in even the last three years and so now I think it is pretty clear Wood is strongest at C. I think in the right system he can absolutely still play PF, but C should be his main spot.
And again, many in DET saw that already 3+ years ago and believed he was the perfect prototype for the "modern big man."
(01-02-2023, 09:37 AM)Chicagojk Wrote: [ -> ]Tim Cato has a chat with the Houston writer today in the Athletic. It is mostly about Wood.
Iko talks about how much Wood liked the idea of playing with Harden and Wall. He didn't mind the 'third star" role and thought the diversity of his game would be valued and valuable. But, that obviously that didn't last very long...and you quickly had what was termed "attitude missteps".
Iko: It’s complicated like you said. A lot of times, Wood’s ego got the best of him, especially on a young team trying to develop several players at the same time. Green was heralded as the guy in Houston from Day 1 — Wood wasn’t too fond of that. Stephen Silas wanted to run an equal opportunity, versatile scheme — Wood wasn’t too fond of that. He wanted a clear pecking order and believed that the departures of Harden and Wall vaulted him to the top by default.
But situations change quickly, and people change too. Wood had to leave that mindset on I-45 after coming into Dallas, where Dončić is the end-all, be-all. Call me crazy, but I think the decision to bring Wood off the bench — and make it public before the season ever started — was to get that mental shift started early. Defensively, he still has some work to do, which I’m sure you’ll get into later, but on the other side of the ball, he’s as dynamic as big men come. An extension with the Mavericks makes sense for both parties.
(01-02-2023, 12:23 PM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: [ -> ]Call me crazy, but I think the decision to bring Wood off the bench — and make it public before the season ever started — was to get that mental shift started early.
MacMahon reported very early this season that Kidd was trying to "break" Wood of any notion that he was a "star."
(01-02-2023, 12:17 PM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]The interesting thing looking back on Wood is that coming out of college (2015) he was considered a 3-4 tweener, almost athletic enough to be a 3, but not quite, almost strong enough to be a 4, but not quite.
Then when he was in DET (2019-2020) the question many started asking was "can you play him at center?"
He thrived at PF in DET so much that one reporter said, "he might be Detroit’s best player and greatest hope to develop a future star." But the style of play in the NBA has shifted a LOT in even the last three years and so now I think it is pretty clear Wood is strongest at C. I think in the right system he can absolutely still play PF, but C should be his main spot.
And again, many in DET saw that already 3+ years ago and believed he was the perfect prototype for the "modern big man."
I think this is a good characterization (and why I indicated this summer that I thought he would play with another big on the floor). I think it is still an open question whether he is good enough defensively to be a starting center on a good team, but there isn't anything to doubt at the other end of the floor.
With that said, and knowing what they knew 3+ years ago, Detroit still decided to go with Mason Plumlee and rookie Isaiah Stewart at center the next season and got nothing for Wood. Houston tried for quite a while to trade him too and Sweeney's time in Detroit (and the Mav's need to open roster slots) was probably the reason they eventually found someone to take him.
(01-02-2023, 12:30 PM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: [ -> ]With that said, and knowing what they knew 3+ years ago, Detroit still decided to go with Mason Plumlee and rookie Isaiah Stewart at center the next season and got nothing for Wood. Houston tried for quite a while to trade him too and Sweeney's time in Detroit (and the Mav's need to open roster slots) was probably the reason they eventually found someone to take him.
Just like the Mavs got nothing for Brunson?
I really don't think Wood walking to HOU was because DET didn't value him. I think it was because they made the move for Grant and Wood wanted to be in HOU to contend with Harden.
And HOU trying to trade Wood was because Wood wanted to play on a contender, then HOU started tanking and traded Harden, and he was upset about them going back to ground zero to develop teenagers.
(01-02-2023, 12:30 PM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: [ -> ]Detroit still decided to go with Mason Plumlee and rookie Isaiah Stewart at center the next season and got nothing for Wood
They sign and traded Wood and heavily protected FRP for Stewart (16th pick by Portland, traded to Houston in the Covington trade).