MavsBoard

(12-13-2022, 08:40 AM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: [ -> ]He's not our second best player who Kidd should start.  He's an offense-only role player off the bench.  

Are we really sure it isn't expiring Wood at the center of those proposals.

* I'm not sure what to make of the offense-only and starting comment.

The Mavs starters:
Luka - most nights offense only
SD - offense only
THJ - one dimensional offense -- shooting only
DFS - can shoot, but mostly just a defensive guy
DP - keeps his man in front, rotates, but won't consider him a defensive guy. And of course, no offense

Just to point out, might as well say there's Luka and a bunch of role players, and at this point there's no clear cut second best player. But Wood is probably there in the top 4.

* With regards to talks of trade, IMHo, at this point it's obvious Wood needs to be traded. Either the Mavs won't offer him or he just won't be interested in coming back. He's not a Mav come next season, so he needs to be traded. Any hopes of him staying as a Mav has died due to Kidd's antics.

I'm just hoping for a fresh start. No Wood, no THJ, no RB and lastly, no Kidd for next season.

Idk if I can handle this board tbh

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Let Wood succeed on another team. If there isn’t a good trade, waive him.

(12-13-2022, 08:45 AM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]

I am not here with you. Wood's defensive On/Off is -2.1 (not good) but SD (-3.9) and DFS (-8.7) are much worse. 

I truly believe the self-fulfilling prophecy is Kidd being convinced Wood wouldn't work and then using him in a way that doesn't work.

We just see it differently.  I’d argue Kidd is doing the only thing that has a chance of working.  I’m not sure the so-and-so is worse argument holds much water with me.  DFS isn’t being hidden on the opponents second best bench big.  He’s typically playing the best starter on the opposing team.  His 3rd most used 5-man lineup still includes the McGee disaster to start the season.  His second most used 5-man lineup is the current starting lineup where he is the only player with even a hint of a defensive reputation.

To Razz’s point, yeah, we have a bunch of one-dimensional role players.  But none of those guys has a D-EPM of 12.  In fact, it is hard to be that bad at D-EPM and get minutes.  Only six players in the entire league have played as many minutes as Wood and have a D-EPM of 12 or worse.  Only one of those plays for a team that has a better record than Dallas.  I have a hard time blaming anyone other than Wood for this and giving him more time in a role where he isn’t protected by Maxi and Green against subs doesn’t seem like a winning formula.

(12-13-2022, 10:31 AM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: [ -> ]D-EPM

I think EPM is not very accurate with the Mavs team (so far) this year. I think RAPTOR is better. Wood is a negative on both ends in that and I think that IS accurate to how things have gone, especially as of late. But my eyes tell me over and over that Wood is the second most talented player and that his D is not as bad as people are making it out to be. But I firmly think he is NOT being put in a place to succeed on EITHER end of the floor. It is difficult to watch. 

(12-13-2022, 10:40 AM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]It is difficult to watch. 

Something we agree on.

BTW, the “very accurate” RAPTOR ranks Powell as the 21st best defender in the league.  Not 21st best center.  21st best player.  Good luck defending that one with the anti-Powell crowd.

(12-13-2022, 10:56 AM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: [ -> ]BTW, the “very accurate” RAPTOR ranks Powell as the 21st best defender in the league.

I would say it this way:

"Powell is the 21st most impactful-on-his-team defender in the league."

I think that is much more accurate to what the stat is saying. And I think that is clearly true based on what we have seen from him this season. He has been key to the Mavs playing successful D so far.

(12-13-2022, 08:45 AM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]I am not here with you. Wood's defensive On/Off is -2.1 (not good) but SD (-3.9) and DFS (-8.7) are much worse. 

I truly believe the self-fulfilling prophecy is Kidd being convinced Wood wouldn't work and then using him in a way that doesn't work.

So do you think if we replace Dorian in the starting lineup with Wood that the defense will improve?

(12-13-2022, 11:29 AM)mvossman Wrote: [ -> ]So do you think if we replace Dorian in the starting lineup with Wood that the defense will improve?

Nope and the numbers don't say that either. 

I was simply making the point that I do not believe and I don't think the numbers are saying that Wood is some bottom of the NBA defender.

(12-13-2022, 11:30 AM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]Nope and the numbers don't say that either. 

I was simply making the point that I do not believe and I don't think the numbers are saying that Wood is some bottom of the NBA defender.

I still struggle sometimes on how you interpret the numbers.  Didn't this discussion start with Dan suggesting that Wood was a rotation offense only player that makes sense to come off the bench?  You are disagreeing with him by showing a Raptor ranking in which he is the 7th best player on the team.  Isn't that an argument for him coming off the bench?

Then you argue that Kidd is doing everything in his power to make Wood ineffective.  If my goal was to give Wood the best numbers possible, I would play him with Luka for offensive purposes and with Maxi for defensive purposes and play him as many minutes as I could against second units where defensive limitations are not exposed as much and he can feast offensively.  About the only thing I might do differently than Kidd is give Wood more minutes, unless I was worried that I would expose his limitations doing that.  I don't really see how Kidd is sabatoging him.

I'm a believer in Wood, but not as a role player. He should start and lead the second unit at times when Luka needs to rest. I will say this though. If the Mavs don't either fix this situation or get a quality player in a trade return, this team is doomed. To me this team is on the verge of needing to be blown up as it is and Wood is the only player on the roster that can possibly help Luka carry the load. Say what you want about his warts, he's still really talented.

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I would do the Collins for Wood/Bullock trade I saw mentioned. I would not just give Wood away. We can't afford to from a talent perspective.

(12-13-2022, 12:02 PM)mvossman Wrote: [ -> ]I still struggle sometimes on how you interpret the numbers.  Didn't this discussion start with Dan suggesting that Wood was a rotation offense only player that makes sense to come off the bench?  You are disagreeing with him by showing a Raptor ranking in which he is the 7th best player on the team.  Isn't that an argument for him coming off the bench?

Then you argue that Kidd is doing everything in his power to make Wood ineffective.  If my goal was to give Wood the best numbers possible, I would play him with Luka for offensive purposes and with Maxi for defensive purposes and play him as many minutes as I could against second units where defensive limitations are not exposed as much and he can feast offensively.  About the only thing I might do differently than Kidd is give Wood more minutes, unless I was worried that I would expose his limitations doing that.  I don't really see how Kidd is sabatoging him.

1) I think Wood has the talent to be a starter and should log starter minutes. If that proves to be wrong, so be it. But I do not think you can KNOW that without trying it. That is my big complaint with Kidd. He comes at a lot of players with big assumptions it seems and uses them in a way that fits his assumptions. 

2) I do not think Kidd is "doing everything in his power to make Wood ineffective." Not at all. I think @"DanSchwartzgan" is right about what Kidd likely is thinking about Wood. I just think Kidd is in no place to truly know (no one is) until you try other options. I think Kidd is just convinced that he is right (Kidd's arrogance is my biggest complaint about him) about Wood and the way he is using Wood is a self-fulfilling prophecy. 

3) I think Wood should be used like he is the second "star" on the team, i.e. build lineups to fit what magnifies his talents on both ends. Try it, run with it, try to maximize his talents, just don't bury his talents in a limited role. If it doesn't work, then you KNOW and you TRIED. But now the Mavs are looking at a scenario where Wood will likely come and go and we will never know if there was a way to maximize his talent. 

4) I would run Wood/Luka pick and rolls to death. I would run offense through Wood when Luka is sitting. I would play Wood as the lone big. I would play Wood with Maxi. I would play Wood at least 30 minutes a game and let him finish both halves. I would try that for a good number of games and see how it goes. I think Wood can be a high-impact offensive player and a neutral defensive player if used properly. That is my take on him.

(12-13-2022, 08:40 AM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: [ -> ]Center's have to defend and Wood can't.

Every position has to defend.

(12-13-2022, 12:21 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]Every position has to defend.

I think Wood could be every bit as effective on D as KP, but with less blocked shots of course.

(12-13-2022, 12:17 PM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]1) I think Wood has the talent to be a starter and should log starter minutes. If that proves to be wrong, so be it. But I do not think you can KNOW that without trying it. That is my big complaint with Kidd. He comes at a lot of players with big assumptions it seems and uses them in a way that fits his assumptions. 

2) I do not think Kidd is "doing everything in his power to make Wood ineffective." Not at all. I think @"DanSchwartzgan" is right about what Kidd likely is thinking about Wood. I just think Kidd is in no place to truly know (no one is) until you try other options. I think Kidd is just convinced that he is right (Kidd's arrogance is my biggest complaint about him) about Wood and the way he is using Wood is a self-fulfilling prophecy. 

3) I think Wood should be used like he is the second "star" on the team, i.e. build lineups to fit what magnifies his talents on both ends. Try it, run with it, try to maximize his talents, just don't bury his talents in a limited role. If it doesn't work, then you KNOW and you TRIED. But now the Mavs are looking at a scenario where Wood will likely come and go and we will never know if there was a way to maximize his talent. 

4) I would run Wood/Luka pick and rolls to death. I would run offense through Wood when Luka is sitting. I would play Wood as the lone big. I would play Wood with Maxi. I would play Wood at least 30 minutes a game and let him finish both halves. I would try that for a good number of games and see how it goes. I think Wood can be a high-impact offensive player and a neutral defensive player if used properly. That is my take on him.

I'm not going to disagree with Kidd's arrogance, but I also think he sees a lot more than you and I do in practices and can have a reasonable idea of what he has and what works.  I don't know if Kidd has a bias against him, but I don't see any evidence of it other than his known bias for defense.  I think it is really hard to have a good defense when your anchor is a sub par defender, and I am very skeptical that Wood can be an even average defensive center.

(12-13-2022, 12:28 PM)mvossman Wrote: [ -> ]I'm not going to disagree with Kidd's arrogance, but I also think he sees a lot more than you and I do in practices and can have a reasonable idea of what he has and what works. 

Yes he does. And normally I always give coaches and GMs the benefit of the doubt because they have access to way more info than me. But this season from a birds eye view has been massively mismanaged IMO from a coaching standpoint and so my trust in Kidd is completely gone. Completely. 

Maybe I will be proved wrong and all of this will turn around and Kidd will be proved a genius. Time will tell.

(12-13-2022, 09:36 AM)IamDougieFresh Wrote: [ -> ]Idk if I can handle this board tbh

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Let Wood succeed on another team. If there isn’t a good trade, waive him.

I actually am with Dan here. I was lukewarm when the Wood trade happened because I was fearful of his defense and question if he ever would be passable enough to play winning basketball. 

He's a great scorer and we shouldn't take that for granted, but how valuable is a player that can score you 20 but give up 25? 

I actually went through all of Wood's 20 minutes last night to see how many points he had a direct hand (i.e. forgetting a rotation) in OKC scoring because I had way too much time this morning and I was curious.

1st quarter- Wood checks in at 6:31 

• 6:15- doesn't get back in transition which leads to SGA getting an easy layup (2pts)
  
• 5:40- again doesn't sprint back, leaving THJ as the lone guy defending the rim. Giddy gets an easy 2. OKC pushing the pace and Wood can't hang (2pts)
  
• 4:55- Wood doesn't box out, leading to Luka to yell at him. OKC only gets a chance at 2 there because Wood doesn't box out, but I won't pin this on him totally.
  
• 2:31- Wood gets crossed up by Shai off a pick action and bites at his pump fake. Fouls. (2pts)
  
• 1:31- In transition Wood forgets who his guy is and runs to the corner giving up a transition 3. (3pts) also the possession right before this he gave up another wide open three because Bullock and him miscommunicated a switch but he bricked it. 
  
• TOTAL: Scores 2, Gives up 9. -7
  

2nd quarter- Wood starts and checks out with 8:11 remaining.

• 10:53- A real ugly possession that is honestly equal faults of Bullock and Wood. RB doesn't rotate properly and takes his eyes off the ball. Wood doesn't sink in to deter the drive (but that's defendable to not give up a pass out.) Not gonna assign any blame but this is the 2nd egregious f up with both Bullock and Wood. 
  
• 9:09- off a double screen Wood fails to stay high enough, giving an open mid range. (2pts)
  
• 8:33- doesn't box out again like at all and OKC barely misses an alley-oop
  
• TOTAL: Scores 0, Gives up 2. -2
  

3rd quarter- Wood checks in with 4:19 left

• 3:42- Wood bites way too hard on a back cut putting him out of position on a Dort drive. Fouls. (2 pts)
  
• 2:31- Not blaming Wood here per-se, because Luka needs to be better, but he really does sink too low and takes weird angles. SGA gets a free layup because Wood doesn't fully commit to guarding the rim. Could've contested this way better.
  
• 0:40- Bullock gets blown by. And once again Wood out of position as the safety for the rim as he doesn't rotate over. Big dunk for SGA (2pts) 
  
• 0:10- OKC figures out that the Bullock+Wood pairing is doo-doo and Shai gets an easy switch. Wood can't hang and Shai gets an easy mid range look that doesn't fall. 
  
• TOTAL: Scores 2, Gives up 4. -2
  

4th Quarter- Wood checks out at 6:11 

• 10:58- Wood literally forgets who he's guarding but Maxi saves his butt and switches it seamlessly. 
  
• 7:06- Bullock doesn't freaking rotate over. But the real story is Wood not crashing the glass and Omoruyi gets the 2nd chance. OKC gets 3. Not going to give whole blame on Wood here. 
  
• 6:11-Wood checks out and curiously walks all the way to the tunnel, untucking his jersey. Walks back out with McGee a minute later looking dejected.
  
• TOTAL: Scores 4, Gives up 0. Total +4.
  

Overall Wood scored 8, but had a direct hand in giving up 15. Net -7.

Can't win games like that. I will say Wood was working in the 4th, but I figure Kidd is sick and tired of Wood forgetting to box out and takes him out. 

He's a fantastic scorer, and when fed can carry a unit. But he's a double edged sword. Mavs need to move on ASAP.

(12-13-2022, 08:40 AM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: [ -> ]He needs to go and after failing to get value for Brunson at the last TDL, this team won't make that same mistake again.  We see the trade rumors involving centers and presume expiring Powell is on his way out.  Are we really sure it isn't expiring Wood at the center of those proposals.

For the record, I hope you're right about this part. 

I would not trade Powell. I would re-sign Powell, hopefully to a lower price. But, starting, 2nd center, 3rd center, whatever, HE is a winning player in some role. 

No problem whatsoever shipping Wood out, especially now that I've seen how it's going here. BUT, unlike some, I think that it's time to question the trade that brought him here over the summer. If you say "they gave up a first for this guy?" people will tell you they did the trade to dump several players...but the biggest thing they did with the open spots is McGee, who is so much WORSE than Wood, HE can't even play. They would've had to create roster spots just to sign Hardy (if he would've been the choice at 18) and whomever they would've ended up getting with that 2nd rounder (which ended up being Hardy) but I am not convinced that such a drastic "all in one" trade needed to be made, including the first. 

I think this was yet another example of the Mavs mishandling a draft asset, minor as it might have been. They add up.

(12-13-2022, 12:31 PM)SleepingHero Wrote: [ -> ]Overall Wood scored 8, but had a direct hand in giving up 15. Net -7.

Great analysis. Matches the eye test for me.

Wood is not being maximized on this team. He is part of the 3rd best 5 man unit in the NBA that has over 50 minutes played. It should be the starting lineup. The Mavs never wanted to make him work. Psychological games from day 1. Get him out of here and let him succeed. I wonder why nobody wants to play for this org?

(12-13-2022, 01:09 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]For the record, I hope you're right about this part. 

I would not trade Powell. I would re-sign Powell, hopefully to a lower price. But, starting, 2nd center, 3rd center, whatever, HE is a winning player in some role. 

No problem whatsoever shipping Wood out, especially now that I've seen how it's going here. BUT, unlike some, I think that it's time to question the trade that brought him here over the summer. If you say "they gave up a first for this guy?" people will tell you they did the trade to dump several players...but the biggest thing they did with the open spots is McGee, who is so much WORSE than Wood, HE can't even play. They would've had to create roster spots just to sign Hardy (if he would've been the choice at 18) and whomever they would've ended up getting with that 2nd rounder (which ended up being Hardy) but I am not convinced that such a drastic "all in one" trade needed to be made, including the first. 

I think this was yet another example of the Mavs mishandling a draft asset, minor as it might have been. They add up.

It's way too early to make that call.  There is value to dumping those contracts and opening up roster spots, there is value to taking a flyer on Wood and seeing what he has, and they may trade him for something meaning even more value.  If they fail to trade or re-sign him, it will be a disappointment, but still a worthy gamble in my mind.