(12-02-2022, 02:14 PM)cow Wrote: [ -> ]I thought our ceiling was probably to be as good as, yet different, than our team last year with JB and I just don't see that now.
This!
Regardless of where we individually fall on the "did the Mavs even have a chance to re-sign Brunson" argument, I sure hope the majority of us are seeing the negative effects of him leaving by now.
When you're a playoff team, you simply can't get away with letting your 2nd best player walk for
nothing. Like, you just can't let that happen.
(12-02-2022, 02:14 PM)cow Wrote: [ -> ]I'd also be a little terrified to invest long term money in Wood, especially if Kidd is part of our future
I am literally terrified of everything if Kidd is part of the Mavs future long term. Everything about him is rubbing me wrong lately.
(12-02-2022, 02:19 PM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]I am literally terrified of everything if Kidd is part of the Mavs future long term. Everything about him is rubbing me wrong lately.
I just can't imagine Cuban getting rid of him. I think he's here for the long haul. This is the Dirk years all over again, except front offices are a lot smarter these days.
(12-02-2022, 02:18 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]This!
Regardless of where we individually fall on the "did the Mavs even have a chance to re-sign Brunson" argument, I sure hope the majority of us are seeing the negative effects of him leaving by now.
When you're a playoff team, you simply can't get away with letting your 2nd best player walk for nothing. Like, you just can't let that happen.
I'm not sure there was a realistic situation to keep JB this past offseason even if they had money whipped him. The damage had already been done.
(12-02-2022, 02:14 PM)cow Wrote: [ -> ]First round pick? Not really. You paid a fair value to dump contracts (sins of the previous MBT) and somehow managed to get Wood in the deal. That's not working out but it's hard to complain about what they paid for him considering the contract dumps.
This doesn't make any sense, with respect.
If THIS is what they were getting into KNOWINGLY (a player they weren't going to truly be able to use) then give me those "dumped" players back and let them expire HERE, off of THESE books, AND give me whichever player they could've gotten with that first round pick.
Hell, BURKE would've helped this team a little, so far. Brown might've been been better than the Bullock they're getting right now. They could've kept Boban one more year in the cheerleader role and not re-signed Pinson.
The point was to get Wood. The value in dumping them was nil, and only really resulted in roster space for McGee, who is a much worse player than any of the outgoing guys other than Boban.
(12-02-2022, 02:25 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]This doesn't make any sense, with respect.
If THIS is what they were getting into KNOWINGLY (a player they weren't going to truly be able to use) then give me those "dumped" players back and let them expire HERE, off of THESE books, AND give me whichever player they could've gotten with that first round pick.
Hell, BURKE would've helped this team a little, so far. Brown might've been been better than the Bullock they're getting right now. They could've kept Boban one more year in the cheerleader role and not re-signed Pinson.
The point was to get Wood. The value in dumping them was nil, and only really resulted in roster space for McGee, who is a much worse player than any of the outgoing guys other than Boban.
The point is, dumping those contracts would have cost you something. It just shows you how incredibly low Wood's value was. He was basically free. Everyone can see the talent, no one is willing to invest. It was a smart trade by the MBT to kick the tires and dump 4 JAGs in the process. And no, Burke and Brown wouldn't help you. And no none of those guys are better than McGee no matter how poorly he is playing. It just seems weird to pin our hopes on that trade when that obviously wasn't the MBT's intention.
(12-02-2022, 02:30 PM)cow Wrote: [ -> ]The point is, dumping those contracts would have cost you something. It just shows you how incredibly low Wood's value was. He was basically free.
Oh, that's not the part I'm arguing with. I get that, trust me.
But, if they didn't have a better vision that this (there's still time, of course) to at least
attempt to make him work here, long term, then I flatly don't think it was worth dumping those guys. Again, either find a different trade or just use the damn pick.
(12-02-2022, 02:30 PM)cow Wrote: [ -> ]And no none of those guys are better than McGee no matter how poorly he is playing.
Well, we'll just have to disagree on this one.
(12-02-2022, 01:56 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]Yes. You are correct, obviously.
BUT, to Kamm's point, this team really needs to make him work, imo. .....
But the disconnect re Wood is the ongoing repetitious assumption that (a) the Mavs aren't trying to make it happen, as quickly and as smoothly as they can, and (b) it would be just that easy, to just say "Here, play these minutes, now it works."
His personal scoring numbers are attractive, and rebounding as well. But there's so much more to the game than that, to be a key player on a top team. Hopefully he will get there. Until then, it's a process, not a proclamation, and "more minutes immediately" isn't necessarily the way to make it happen.
(12-02-2022, 02:36 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ] Again, either find a different trade or just use the damn pick.
By now, even the MBT know they suck at drafting.
(12-02-2022, 02:39 PM)cow Wrote: [ -> ]By now, even the MBT know they suck at drafting.
Maybe, but that's not a reason to throw picks into the dirt. Sorry, it just isn't.
(12-02-2022, 02:36 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]Well, we'll just have to disagree on this one.
Just do this mental exercise. Cut all five players. As soon as they clear waivers, only one of them is getting picked up and only one of them will get minutes for another team.
McGee hasn't been great for us, but we've done him a little dirty. I don't really feel bad for him because of the contract he got but we could have just as easily shelved Bullock last year (and this year) for how terrible he's playing.
(12-02-2022, 02:40 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]Maybe, but that's not a reason to throw picks into the dirt. Sorry, it just isn't.
They didn't throw the pick away. They paid to dump 4x JAGs and got a Christian Wood lottery ticket. Far better than what they normally do in the draft. It was a really smart trade on their part.
(12-02-2022, 02:38 PM)F Gump Wrote: [ -> ]But the disconnect re Wood is the ongoing repetitious assumption that (a) the Mavs aren't trying to make it happen, as quickly and as smoothly as they can, and (b) it would be just that easy, to just say "Here, play these minutes, now it works."
His personal scoring numbers are attractive, and rebounding as well. But there's so much more to the game than that, to be a key player on a top team. Hopefully he will get there. Until then, it's a process, not a proclamation, and "more minutes immediately" isn't necessarily the way to make it happen.
It's not that I don't understand or agree with what you're saying here. Trust me.
I just don't think it's as binary as you Kamm are making it. You're replying like I'm on the opposite extreme from you, and I'm really not. In fact, I'm probably closer to where you are than where he is.
But, here's what can't be denied, factually: The Mavericks are noticeably short on offensive talent. Wood
has uncommonly rare offensive abilities. Now, it's clear that finding a way (or maybe even his potential to) apply them within a system to winning effect is going to be a process. And to be fair, they might be doing everything they possibly can behind the scenes, which I think is a large part of your point.
But, you have to accept that this is going to be a frustrating time for all of us.
(12-02-2022, 02:41 PM)cow Wrote: [ -> ]They didn't throw the pick away. They paid to dump 4x JAGs and got a Christian Wood lottery ticket. Far better than what they normally do in the draft. It was a really smart trade on their part.
I thought so, too, at the time. I think I'd prefer to have the players and pick(ed player) back in hindsight (at this point, at least). To be fair, my opinion will swing back that way if the Wood thing starts to work out better as we go. But, it seems like you're saying their goal was to "dump" people and that Wood was just a secondary prize, and that they always knew the most likely outcome was simply letting him expire.
I am NOT ok with them using the pick that way, sorry.
(12-02-2022, 02:40 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]Maybe, but that's not a reason to throw picks into the dirt. Sorry, it just isn't.
I feel like this is hyperbole. Folks talked themselves into Wood being an all star that could replace Brunson and more. We didn't pay near enough in assets for that. A late first and crappy expiring contracts is not going to get you a lot. We took a flyer on a younger player with a lot of skill that has some red flags. That is what you are supposed to do. So far it has been a mixed bag at best, but we are still getting 26 minutes and 17/8 on a team in need of offense and rebounding. Its not like he has been useless. He just has not been best case. If we decide he is not a fit, then there is still the possibility we can flip him for something else. If we end up landing Collins for him, this narrative is going to turn around really quick.
(12-02-2022, 02:41 PM)cow Wrote: [ -> ]Just do this mental exercise. Cut all five players. As soon as they clear waivers, only one of them is getting picked up and only one of them will get minutes for another team.
I think it depends on the evaluator, team and system, but for me, the highest McGee could possibly be on that list is 3rd, and that's as generous as I can bring myself to be.
Do THIS exercise: on THIS team, THIS season, which of those players would have played the most minutes to this point? I really, really don't think McGee is the answer to that question.
(12-02-2022, 02:53 PM)mvossman Wrote: [ -> ]feel like this is hyperbole. Folks talked themselves into Wood being an all star that could replace Brunson and more. We didn't pay near enough in assets for that. A late first and crappy expiring contracts is not going to get you a lot.
Wow.
I'm NOT calling Wood any of that.
I'm saying I would rather have the pick (and a rookie-contract controlled player) than a player who might not work out here and expire for nothing.
When you argue that people's valuations of Wood are too high, you're arguing
in favor of that point. But your lead sentence was about hyperbole.
(12-02-2022, 02:53 PM)mvossman Wrote: [ -> ]Folks talked themselves into Wood being an all star that could replace Brunson and more.
Man, this has me pissed off.
I'm like the only person still talking about Brunson around here. I would NEVER suggest that Wood can "replace him and more." NEVER.
Talk about hyperbole!
Can we at least acknowledge that giving up that pick in the trade didn't really do much damage seeing as the guy we wanted (as far as we're told) slid far enough down and we made a move to nab him?
(12-02-2022, 03:00 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]Man, this has me pissed off.
I'm like the only person still talking about Brunson around here. I would NEVER suggest that Wood can "replace him and more." NEVER.
Talk about hyperbole!
Calm down. I didn't say you thought he could replace Brunson, but several others did. There was a lot of thought that this team would be as good or better than last year because Wood would be such a good fit with Luka.
The point I was making is that there is a lot of room between what folks (including you) were hoping we would get in Wood and dirt.
(12-02-2022, 03:05 PM)StrandedOnBeauboisHill Wrote: [ -> ]Can we at least acknowledge that giving up that pick in the trade didn't really do much damage seeing as the guy we wanted (as far as we're told) slid far enough down and we made a move to nab him?
I mentioned it in my posts today.
(12-02-2022, 03:10 PM)cow Wrote: [ -> ]I mentioned it in my posts today.
Ah my bad, lots of posts flying around today.
(12-02-2022, 03:06 PM)mvossman Wrote: [ -> ]The point I was making is that there is a lot of room between what folks (including you) were hoping we would get in Wood and dirt.
Sure, but what @"cow" is saying (I think) is that he's a "lottery ticket" (OK, I can get behind that analogy) and that the
true value for the pick was dumping those 4 players. He seems to believe "it didn't work out, good luck out there, Mr. Wood" is and was always among the likely scenarios in their minds, both before the trade and now (correct me if I'm wrong, Mr. Cow).
No, sorry. GIVE ME THE COST CONTROLLED ROOKIE PLAYER, if that's their attitude. I'm not arguing in favor of looking at Wood more favorably, I agree there's a reason he was so cheap! I'm saying, if you're going to make the trade, you'd better have a bad ass plan for making him work here, imho.
If not, you're paying to dump guys for nothing. No reason, whatsoever. Most of their money would've expired, just like his, and if he fails here that means they literally didn't add a single thing of value into the roster spots that were created by paying to move them. This is the textbook definition of "wheel spinning."
If Wood works out here and gets a new contract - GREAT TRADE.
If you're able to package Wood at the deadline in a deal that wouldn't have worked with the combo of those outgoing guys - GREAT TRADE.
If this story ends with just letting him walk and you've PAID a 1st to position yourself to make absolutely no progress, I'm sorry...that's terrible, and saying "they wouldn't have picked a good player anyway" is soooo emblematic of how horribly this franchise has conditioned our expectations.
(12-02-2022, 02:46 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]It's not that I don't understand or agree with what you're saying here. Trust me.
I just don't think it's as binary as you Kamm are making it. You're replying like I'm on the opposite extreme from you, and I'm really not. In fact, I'm probably closer to where you are than where he is.
But, here's what can't be denied, factually: The Mavericks are noticeably short on offensive talent. Wood has uncommonly rare offensive abilities. Now, it's clear that finding a way (or maybe even his potential to) apply them within a system to winning effect is going to be a process. And to be fair, they might be doing everything they possibly can behind the scenes, which I think is a large part of your point.
But, you have to accept that this is going to be a frustrating time for all of us.
I thought so, too, at the time. I think I'd prefer to have the players and pick(ed player) back in hindsight (at this point, at least). To be fair, my opinion will swing back that way if the Wood thing starts to work out better as we go. But, it seems like you're saying their goal was to "dump" people and that Wood was just a secondary prize, and that they always knew the most likely outcome was simply letting him expire.
I am NOT ok with them using the pick that way, sorry.
Re Wood and the minutes, I'm not binary at all. I think it's a process, and I'm just pushing back on the extremely simplistic whine (not saying it's yours, except when you defend it) that the process MUST be done in a way that gives Wood more minutes immediately and always, and that demands the Mavs course be tied to Wood's development.
Re Wood and the trade to get him, I'm with cow on that. I think the pick (a very low 1st-rounder in a draft that was about 15 deep in excellence, and then a big crapshoot after) was MOSTLY payment for getting rid of 4 bodies that they didn't want and couldn't use. Note that all those players except Bobi eventually were waived (that's their value) and also remember the Mavs needed roster spots badly. The Mavs were NOT going to waive those players if there was a way around it, because of the tax consequence on all the dead money. Freeing up 3 much-needed roster spots in a 4-for-1 had real roster-building value to them.
The Mavs have claimed that they got the guy anyhow that they would have drafted with that pick, so the net cost of Wood AND the garbage pickup was in total those 2 future 2nd rounders (what it cost to get Hardy). IMO quite reasonable, regardless of how it works out. And consider this -- would the Mavs have added 2 low-draft rookie players to the roster (Hardy PLUS another) that already was short on roster slots? I seriously doubt it.