(07-11-2022, 03:48 PM)Kidnova Wrote: [ -> ]It's $5.5, $5.7, and $6 million per year. That's what? $3 million above a vet min? Even if he plays himself into a bunch of DNPs by year 2 or 3 it's not exactly going to be a boat anchor, and he could easily fit in for salary matching in various trade scenarios.
My problem with this mentality is that when this mistake is repeated regularly you start running into cap and tax issues and next thing you know the owner is letting the second best player on the team walk because he is choking on the tax bill (I'm not saying that is the only reason Brunson walked). When we continually do unnecessary contracts like Powell, Burke, Brown, Boban, McGee it adds up.
(07-11-2022, 01:53 PM)Fuerza1 Wrote: [ -> ]Highly misleading when you are lumping in Dinwiddie's primary ball handler role in WAS vs Brunson's role as a secondary ball handler. Dinwiddie had a lower Assist % than Brunson when he joined the Mavs despite his role being mainly a distributor vs Brunson's scorer role.
In the 7 games he started for the Mavs (small sample size), he had an assist % of 20%. Compare that to Brunson's 24% when he started 61 games.
When you compare Brunson's assist numbers to other "secondary ball handlers," he's elite, especially when you factor in his low turnover numbers.
It's not easy playing next to Luka, arguably the most ball dominant player in the league. Can Dinwiddie do that at a high level for a full season with great success?
Even if the passing is similar (I think Brunson's better), Brunson is better than Dinwiddie at every other facet of offense. Isn't that the more important part, playing off-ball to Luka?
FWIW, I think THJ/Bullock play their way to starter and Dinwiddie settles on the bench.
Great post. Brunson is just significantly better than the less efficient Dinwiddie. Dinwiddie is very officiating dependent. Sometimes he’s throwing up off balanced shots through contact and getting calls, sometimes it’s just a missed shot and play on. And that’s how his nights seem to go. He’s taller than JB, but still a bad defender. JB is pretty much better at everything, and he’s younger and healthier. Dinwiddie is no replacement for Brunson. He’ll have to do for now, but hopefully the Mavs can upgrade to a better player or Hardy emerges as a quality secondary ball handler and efficient scorer (I’m not joking, it could happen). I’m not negative towards Widdie. He’s better than THJ for example, will mix in a big game here and there, and can be a good bench piece. But if you’re expecting JB’s level of efficient, winning production, you’re going to be disappointed.
The case for McGee. Not a guy like him. Not a new style of offense or defense dependent on his skill set. The case for him and nobody else. It goes like this:
1. Versatility is better than any given style. For this reason, the Mavs are dedicated to playing both 5 out and with a traditional big. Picking one exposes you in a way that versatility does not. Think of it as diversification.
2. In the modern NBA, 5 out is better. Thus, the Mavs don’t want a significant investment in a dinosaur center that they may, in many matchups, only put on the court for limited minutes. That’s why they were shopping down the discount aisle rather than making a bid on Rudy.
3. There is no better traditional center in the league who is willing to sit on the pine 33 mins a night while being a good teammate and not breaking the bank. JaVale is that guy.
This is not a wow move. I’m not trying to say it is. It’s hugely disappointing to me that this was our top priority on July 1. But it does not merit the gnashing of KillerLeft’s teeth. It doesn’t signal the end of the 5-out era. It doesn’t return the team to the Stone Age. And it won’t result in an elevated role for Dwight Powell.
To the contrary, JaVale is your Dwight replacement. G‘bye, dear Dwight. We hardly knew ye.
(07-11-2022, 03:48 PM)Kidnova Wrote: [ -> ]It's $5.5, $5.7, and $6 million per year. That's what? $3 million above a vet min? Even if he plays himself into a bunch of DNPs by year 2 or 3 it's not exactly going to be a boat anchor, and he could easily fit in for salary matching in various trade scenarios.
I don’t really disagree with this part. The contract doesn’t bother me as much as the idea that they used their main resource to solve a problem that I don’t believe was the glaring issue.
If they had done this and re-signed Brunson, I’d be pretty happy about McGee.
If they had done this, re-signed Brunson AND acquired a rotation wing somehow, I’d be ecstatic about McGee.
The contract, in a vacuum, isn’t really an issue for me. But, I didn’t care about Burke’s contract, either, for all the same reasons. The difference here is that Mavs absolutely HAVE to play McGee in every game, with the roster in its current state, playoffs included. THAT’s very, very inflexible.
(07-11-2022, 03:48 PM)Kidnova Wrote: [ -> ]It's $5.5, $5.7, and $6 million per year. That's what? $3 million above a vet min? Even if he plays himself into a bunch of DNPs by year 2 or 3 it's not exactly going to be a boat anchor, and he could easily fit in for salary matching in various trade scenarios.
Edit: Just to be clear, I'm not a big fan of McGee, in general, but I do think what he does is valuable to the Mavs and the contract is small enough that it's no big deal if he has to be moved later.
The contract is one in a long list of overpays that directly contributes to the Mavs current tax line situation. It´s not going to be any easier to avoid similar situations in the next two years as long as they overpay fringe rotation players.
But even more important as @Killerleft said. They used the only non-trade option to upgrade the roster on McGee.
(07-11-2022, 03:55 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]The difference here is that Mavs absolutely HAVE to play McGee in every game, with the roster in its current state, playoffs included. THAT’s very, very inflexible.
No they don't. All the guys that we rotated last year after the KP trade are still on the squad. We also added Wood.
(07-11-2022, 03:57 PM)cow Wrote: [ -> ]No they don't. All the guys that we rotated last year after the KP trade are still on the squad. We also added Wood.
It's hard not to play a starter.
(07-11-2022, 03:54 PM)Jommybone Wrote: [ -> ]The case for McGee. Not a guy like him. Not a new style of offense or defense dependent on his skill set. The case for him and nobody else. It goes like this:
1. Versatility is better than any given style. For this reason, the Mavs are dedicated to playing both 5 out and with a traditional big. Picking one exposes you in a way that versatility does not. Think of it as diversification.
2. In the modern NBA, 5 out is better. Thus, the Mavs don’t want a significant investment in a dinosaur center that they may, in many matchups, only put on the court for limited minutes. That’s why they were shopping down the discount aisle rather than making a bid on Rudy.
3. There is no better traditional center in the league who is willing to sit on the pine 33 mins a night while being a good teammate and not breaking the bank. JaVale is that guy.
This is not a wow move. I’m not trying to say it is. It’s hugely disappointing to me that this was our top priority on July 1. But it does not merit the gnashing of KillerLeft’s teeth. It doesn’t signal the end of the 5-out era. It doesn’t return the team to the Stone Age. And it won’t result in an elevated role for Dwight Powell.
To the contrary, JaVale is your Dwight replacement. G‘bye, dear Dwight. We hardly knew ye.
1) Flexibility is great. And just because your big CAN shoot, doesn’t mean you are FORCED to play him in a 5-out approach. That’s straw man. Wood can be a 5-out spacer AND a vertical spacer. So can Kleber, for that matter.
2) McGee is the opposite of flexible. When he’s on the floor, you’re locked into certain play style choices on both ends. Yes, you can take him off of the floor when you need to, but the way the roster is set up he basically MUST be played at least 10-15 minutes. Otherwise, you’re depending on what you can get from Green, Ntilikina, etc. What happens if you play a defensive team against whom you can’t get away with a clogged paint for even that short length of time? maybe 1-2 of the Green/Ntilikina/Hardy/Dorsey crew steps up and this works, making my concerns a complete non-issue. Maybe not. I’m not comfortable with that risk with the stakes being what they are coming off of last season.
3) if they had added other rotation qualified players, such as Brunson (or a replacement for him) and (even “or”) the wing they said they needed (obvs), they’d be flexible enough to use McGee (or a cheaper version of his type) only in situations that call for it. But, for me, the main concerns with the center position were addressed by the Wood trade.
(07-11-2022, 03:54 PM)mvossman Wrote: [ -> ]My problem with this mentality is that when this mistake is repeated regularly you start running into cap and tax issues and next thing you know the owner is letting the second best player on the team walk because he is choking on the tax bill (I'm not saying that is the only reason Brunson walked). When we continually do unnecessary contracts like Powell, Burke, Brown, Boban, McGee it adds up.
Ok, this I can get behind. I've been saying this for a while. It is also only an issue cause we have an owner that has been jealous of and started imitating Sarver since Nash left.
I've said this before, MC's go to negotiating tactic on Shark Tank is what Sarver did to him in the Nash deal. He puts out an offer and makes them make a decision right then without discussing with the other Sharks. That is literally what Sarver did with Nash. He gets so hurt over these things (like the Rondo trade) and then obsesses over them.
This has probably been said somewhere but DP's replacement at half the price and likely much better in that role, seems like an easy win for the front office.
(07-11-2022, 04:09 PM)Hypermav Wrote: [ -> ]This has probably been said somewhere but DP's replacment at half the price and likely much better in that role, seems like an easy win for the front office.
Powell is still on the roster. If they cannot move him that makes 16m for a 12-15 minutes slot and a DNP CD.
(07-11-2022, 04:11 PM)dirkfansince1998 Wrote: [ -> ]Powell is still on the roster. If they cannot move him that makes 16m for a 12-15 minutes slot and a DNP CD.
The beef is with the Powell contract then and not the McGee contract. I am fully onboard with Powell must go and I think he will.
(07-11-2022, 04:09 PM)Hypermav Wrote: [ -> ]This has probably been said somewhere but DP's replacement at half the price and likely much better in that role, seems like an easy win for the front office.
But Powell is still on the roster, and they’re down a creator and the wing they’ve “added” is THJ.
I’m pretty worried that they’re doubling down on Powell’s minutes by adding a similarly limited player into their top 8-9. I think there’s a good chance both of them play in every game, at least for the first couple of months.
I’ve always been one of Powell’s biggest supporters here, and I never thought I’d type this sentiment, but at this point I’d actually feel better if Powell is removed from the roster, pretty much regardless of what comes back (as long as it isn’t another dinosaur center).
(07-11-2022, 04:14 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]I’m pretty worried that they’re doubling down on Powell’s minutes by adding a similarly limited player into their top 8-9. I think there’s a good chance both of them play in every game, at least for the first couple of months.
I would agree, that would be bad. My only point is McGee is a better player than DP and we got him for half the price. That is good. If we play lots of McGee and Powell, that is bad.
So do I agree with both sides?
(07-11-2022, 04:14 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]But Powell is still on the roster, and they’re down a creator and the wing they’ve “added” is THJ.
I’m pretty worried that they’re doubling down on Powell’s minutes by adding a similarly limited player into their top 8-9. I think there’s a good chance both of them play in every game, at least for the first couple of months.
I’ve always been one of Powell’s biggest supporters here, and I never thought I’d type this sentiment, but at this point I’d actually feel better if Powell is removed from the roster, pretty much regardless of what comes back (as long as it isn’t another dinosaur center).
Someone being on the roster on a bad contract doesn't mean you shouldn't try to bolster the position group. Brunson leaving is kind of an arbitrary bullet point.
Powell might have some value as an expiring contract as part of a salary match in a bigger deal but you aren't just going to get rid of him for nothing.
(07-11-2022, 04:17 PM)Hypermav Wrote: [ -> ]I would agree, that would be bad. My only point is McGee is a better player than DP and we got him for half the price. That is good. If we play lots of McGee and Powell, that is bad.
So do I agree with both sides?
If they move Powell for a wing or a PG, we’ll all be much closer to common ground again.
I’m 99% sure the majority of folks arguing with @"mvossman", @"dirkfansince1998" and myself simply haven’t thought through the future implications of what we’re seeing enough to realize how mad they could potentially be when this plays out.
@"DanSchwartzgan" gets it, I think. With the information available at this time concerning roster balance, they’re setting themselves up for their DEFAULT to be a 4-big rotation (wood, McGee, Kleber AND Powell). This might NOT be the end of Powell, as most are assuming. I believe this is what Dan has been hoping they’d do, that’s the difference. I think it’s the worst possible direction they could’ve chosen.
Still time to turn Powell/Green into a rotation-worthy non-center, so I’ll keep hoping.
(07-11-2022, 04:06 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]1) Flexibility is great. And just because your big CAN shoot, doesn’t mean you are FORCED to play him in a 5-out approach. That’s straw man. Wood can be a 5-out spacer AND a vertical spacer. So can Kleber, for that matter.
2) McGee is the opposite of flexible. When he’s on the floor, you’re locked into certain play style choices on both ends. Yes, you can take him off of the floor when you need to, but the way the roster is set up he basically MUST be played at least 10-15 minutes. Otherwise, you’re depending on what you can get from Green, Ntilikina, etc. What happens if you play a defensive team against whom you can’t get away with a clogged paint for even that short length of time? maybe 1-2 of the Green/Ntilikina/Hardy/Dorsey crew steps up and this works, making my concerns a complete non-issue. Maybe not. I’m not comfortable with that risk with the stakes being what they are coming off of last season.
3) if they had added other rotation qualified players, such as Brunson (or a replacement for him) and (even “or”) they’d be flexible enough to use McGee (or a cheaper version of his type) only in situations that call for it. But, for me, the main concerns with the center position we’re addressed by the Wood trade.
This is all pretty weird if you think about. I'm not calling you out at all KillerLeft, but I need to state the obvious here.
Most of these threads the last few days are just rampant with speculation. We are speculating on a head coaching change less than a year old, a Front Office less than a year old, and players under contract who have never played together in a system we are only vaguely familiar with.
I realize this is what message boards do. But the last few days, it's hard to call most of these posts well-grounded opinions. There's almost no history to the Mavericks coaches, front office, or several players. We're all just imagining what it will be like, then getting overly morose about outcomes we can't possibly predict.
I have no good idea how these guys will play together, don't feel particularly informed about Kidd's "system" right now, and haven't really seen enough of Wood or McGee to tell you exactly what these guys will bring. Since we got to the WCF last season, I'll at least give the coaches a chance of putting together the pieces they choose without gnashing my teeth.
I get that Free Agency has been historically bad for the Mavericks, but I feel we chewed all the flavor out of that gum two weeks ago.
Honestly, I'm at a point where I expect one more trade so I keep checking the wire and reading the posts. But it's getting downright apocalyptic in here.
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