(06-11-2023, 01:05 PM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: [ -> ]From Stein (remember when I brought up this possibility some time back):
IfIIIf Harden stays put in Philly …
James Harden is routinely billed as the Rockets' top target in free agency, but several other names have circulated, not surprisingly, given that Houston is projected to have an estimated $59 million in salary cap space this summer.
IifIFOther free-aagents-to-be that have been linked to the Rockets in recent weeks include Toronto's Fred VanVleet, Brooklyn's restricted free agent Cam Johnson, Memphis' Dillon Brooks and the Milwaukee duo of Khris Middleton and Brook Lopez.
I have also heard that the Rockets, in the event that they are unable to lure Harden away from Philadelphia and back to Houston, plan to weigh a run at Dallas' Kyrie Irving.
The Mavericks remain the league's only known team with definitive interest in signing the mercurial Irving next month, but league sources say that the Rockets have been increasingly cited as a team that could (stress: could) join the bidding if Harden elects to stay with the 76ers
Of course, Houston will provide leverage to every FA of any note this summer until they actually use their space.
Well there it is. I also had this possibility on my radar as early as March. There are a lot of question marks, and it seems like Stein is speculating much like we were a couple of months ago, so I'm not reading this as if the Rockets have interest in Irving, but rather HOU is a legit place that Kyrie can use as leverage against the Mavs in order to get his max 4 year deal.
How much money would the Mavs free up if they let Kyrie and DP go?
Enough for Kuzma? Grant?
A PF-C-PG trio of Jalen McDaniels+Reid+Dennis Smith Jr?
(06-11-2023, 05:42 PM)SleepingHero Wrote: [ -> ]... Stein is speculating much like we were a couple of months ago, so I'm not reading this as if the Rockets have interest in Irving, but rather HOU is a legit place that Kyrie can use as leverage against the Mavs in order to get his max 4 year deal.
I buy all of this in the ilk of "So you're saying there's a chance??"
How much leverage is there really, when neither party wants each other? It's not really a threat. As DS indicated, that purely hypothetical leverage is just about numbers that work, and nothing more, in a situation where HOU's cap room is being used as money that may be there for EVERY free agent, but whose threat goes away when players and teams actually start talking and HOU has specific targets they are pursuing.
I don't think Kyrie would have even minimal interest in a team full of youngsters who aren't much of a team. He wants to be on a team with a running mate, like Lebron, KD, or Luka. And as for HOU, they have possible interest in Harden (and vice versa) because of experience, but that doesn't have anything to do with Kyrie.
(06-11-2023, 08:33 PM)Razzmatazz_Hopskidillydoo Wrote: [ -> ]How much money would the Mavs free up if they let Kyrie and DP go?
Enough for Kuzma? Grant?
With the present roster (all the FAs walk, no snt's or holds) and all contracts intact, they would have about 16.8M in cap room, and the 7.6M room MLE.
A s-w of Bertans increases that cap room to 28.3M. The result looks something like this.
McGee
Maxi
Bullock
THJ, Green
Luka, Hardy
#10 pick
28.3M FA
7.6M FA
minimums
(06-11-2023, 09:00 PM)F Gump Wrote: [ -> ]I buy all of this in the ilk of "So you're saying there's a chance??"
How much leverage is there really, when neither party wants each other? It's not really a threat. As DS indicated, that purely hypothetical leverage is just about numbers that work, and nothing more, in a situation where HOU's cap room is being used as money that may be there for EVERY free agent, but whose threat goes away when players and teams actually start talking and HOU has specific targets they are pursuing.
I don't think Kyrie would have even minimal interest in a team full of youngsters who aren't much of a team. He wants to be on a team with a running mate, like Lebron, KD, or Luka. And as for HOU, they have possible interest in Harden (and vice versa) because of experience, but that doesn't have anything to do with Kyrie.
Given that HOU does have the cap space and are desperate to start winning (the Udoka hire is the biggest piece of this to me), I see HOU as a very real threat, regardless of lack of fit/history. Kyrie wants to get paid. It's his only goal. Kyrie doesn't care for "good" basketball situations. If that was the case he'd have never forced his way off of CLE in 2016 right after the championship. He'd have never forced his way out of BOS. Nets are more complicated, but again he truly did not care for the basketball situation.
I can be convinced of a scenario where the Mavs try and lowball Kyrie (something to the tune of ~35 a year) and HOU comes on in and offers the full max that they can. And I am
sure Kyrie would take the max from HOU, play nice till the TDL, then force a trade to either PHX or LA so he can play with Lebron or KD. We'd all say the Mavs were correct in trying to get Kyrie at a lower contract and that they were unlucky that HOU swept in. It'd be the same song and dance we've seen for 13 years.
Thankfully this is all just speculation and that HOU doesn't seem to be all that interested in Kyrie, nor does there seem to be any apparent interest either from Kyrie's side. But the incentive (and threat) is there for both HOU and Kyrie to work together should the Mavs come in and play games with Kyrie.
(06-11-2023, 09:16 PM)F Gump Wrote: [ -> ]With the present roster (all the FAs walk, no snt's or holds) and all contracts intact, they would have about 16.8M in cap room, and the 7.6M room MLE.
A s-w of Bertans increases that cap room to 28.3M. The result looks something like this.
McGee
Maxi
Bullock
THJ, Green
Luka, Hardy
#10 pick
28.3M FA
7.6M FA
minimums
Basically enough for one of Kuzma or Grant, and
maybe one of Reid/McDaniels/DSJ on the bench.
No shot the Mavs come out a better team operating under the cap and Kyrie walking for free. Either they have to SnT Kyrie and most likely Wood as well, or they just resign Kyrie and explore all other avenues of using all the other assets to fill out the roster the best they can.
(06-12-2023, 12:42 AM)SleepingHero Wrote: [ -> ]Basically enough for one of Kuzma or Grant, and maybe one of Reid/McDaniels/DSJ on the bench.
No shot the Mavs come out a better team operating under the cap and Kyrie walking for free. Either they have to SnT Kyrie and most likely Wood as well, or they just resign Kyrie and explore all other avenues of using all the other assets to fill out the roster the best they can.
$28M split’s handsomely into 2 $14M contracts. MLE is $12M. We beat most offers for Brooks and Williams (if not all). They would fit nicely on the team.
Could go McDaniels at $12M and Williams at $16M to make sure Bos doesn’t match. $13m and $15M? $12.5 and $15.8 (there is $.3M in leftovers!).
(06-12-2023, 12:39 AM)SleepingHero Wrote: [ -> ]Thankfully this is all just speculation and that HOU doesn't seem to be all that interested in Kyrie, nor does there seem to be any apparent interest either from Kyrie's side. But the incentive (and threat) is there for both HOU and Kyrie to work together should the Mavs come in and play games with Kyrie.
Stein talked about this on his podcast. He said "Houston will weigh a run at Kyrie if they are unsuccessful in attracting Harden". He went on to say "the only verified confirmed team bidding for Kyrie is Dallas". Houston will 'weigh it', but no evidence of anyone else showing interest at this point. "Kyrie by all accounts wants to stay with Dallas".
Haynes said "that would be interesting" and he hadn't heard that one. The Houston owner "is not happy" and "getting a star if priority number one". But he said he thinks Kyrie returns to Dallas. "It would take a real hang-up in negotiations to veer him off that course". He does think some teams are going to "surface expressing interest in Kyrie trying to line up meetings" in the next week or so. That last part sounded like he knew something (if you listen to Haynes, he likes to drop these little teases and then come back later and tell us what he knew when he said such-and-such).
Stein said Dallas is trying to thread the needle and get the most team friendly deal that Kyrie will accept. Kyrie needs external interest to get some leverage.
(06-12-2023, 07:48 AM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: [ -> ]Stein talked about this on his podcast. He said "Houston will weigh a run at Kyrie if they are unsuccessful in attracting Harden". He went on to say "the only verified confirmed team bidding for Kyrie is Dallas". Houston will 'weigh it', but no evidence of anyone else showing interest at this point. "Kyrie by all accounts wants to stay with Dallas".
Haynes said "that would be interesting" and he hadn't heard that one. The Houston owner "is not happy" and "getting a star if priority number one". But he said he thinks Kyrie returns to Dallas. "It would take a real hang-up in negotiations to veer him off that course". He does think some teams are going to "surface expressing interest in Kyrie trying to line up meetings" in the next week or so. That last part sounded like he knew something (if you listen to Haynes, he likes to drop these little teases and then come back later and tell us what he knew when he said such-and-such).
Stein said Dallas is trying to thread the needle and get the most team friendly deal that Kyrie will accept. Kyrie needs external interest to get some leverage.
The Haynes tidbit is
way more interesting to me. He appears to take it a step farther and is more confident than not that Kyrie is returning. This echoes what Stein has previously put out as well. I do think Kyrie is returning, but the contract is going to make most sick imo.
(06-12-2023, 05:24 AM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]$28M split’s handsomely into 2 $14M contracts. MLE is $12M. We beat most offers for Brooks and Williams (if not all). They would fit nicely on the team.
(06-12-2023, 05:28 AM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]Could go McDaniels at $12M and Williams at $16M to make sure Bos doesn’t match. $13m and $15M? $12.5 and $15.8 (there is $.3M in leftovers!).
Room MLE would be 8 mil as FGump pointed out no? I'm really not sure what 14M gets you nowadays in terms of role players. Dillon Brooks? Grant Williams? Are these the guys that will vault this team from mediocrity to contention? Are they worth letting go Kyrie and S/W Bertans?
(06-12-2023, 09:56 AM)SleepingHero Wrote: [ -> ]The Haynes tidbit is way more interesting to me. He appears to take it a step farther and is more confident than not that Kyrie is returning. This echoes what Stein has previously put out as well. I do think Kyrie is returning, but the contract is going to make most sick imo.
If you listen to the Pod, you can tell he’s been told someone plans to get into the race. He used the word “meeting”, so this would be someone who could create cap room and is good enough that Kyrie might be interested. Two names come to mind, but they would need to lose FA’s and have something that a team like SA would want. Ideally, they wouldn’t need to create every penny of cap room needed and Dallas would be in position to extract some value if Kyrie insisted on going.
The teams I come up with are Philly and Toronto. Philly would need to lose Harden and find a taker for Tobias with dramatically less salary returning. Toronto can get to about $40mm in space if they move on from FVV, Trent and Poeltl. I think Dallas would be interested in Poeltl and possibly FVV. Playing with Embiid makes more sense to me than going to Canada. But, the Raptors have some pieces.
I guess “meetings” could mean teams that can’t get the cap space, but Dallas would need to play along there.
(06-12-2023, 10:40 AM)Chicagojk Wrote: [ -> ]https://twitter.com/mavsfilmroom/status/...94305?s=46&t=Fmdr94oXagcEyy75KJqaFg
From the tweet: it would take a “real hangup” in negotiations for that to change
Oh Gawd is that Mark Cuban music?
Heat can’t get to the money needed, but fit the “after next week” part of this.
We went through Kyrie/Miami scenarios a few weeks ago. Speaking of Summer of Schwartz, the Heat are just littered with Excel clients including Herro and Jovic (and Love, Dipo and Zeller). As you think through Kyrie to Miami trades, bear in mind the Heat are already over the first apron WITHOUT their own FA’s. They probably need to drop salary if they want to do a Kyrie S&T.
(06-12-2023, 09:56 AM)SleepingHero Wrote: [ -> ]Room MLE would be 8 mil as FGump pointed out no? I'm really not sure what 14M gets you nowadays in terms of role players. Dillon Brooks? Grant Williams? Are these the guys that will vault this team from mediocrity to contention? Are they worth letting go Kyrie and S/W Bertans?
Huh? That $8M wasn’t spent in my post, the $28.3M was.
Yes, Dillon Brooks and Grant Williams would be big upgrades. In the scenario FG laid out, Kyrie isn’t coming back, that means tempering expectations as far as contention, but if we could trade THJ (edit: add McGee and the 30 SRP for cap space to work) and 27 for Allen, that starting lineup looks stout:
Luka/Green/Brooks/Williams/Allen
(06-12-2023, 10:50 AM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: [ -> ]1 Heat can’t get to the money needed, but fit the “after next week” part of this.
2 We went through Kyrie/Miami scenarios a few weeks ago. Speaking of Summer of Schwartz, the Heat are just littered with Excel clients including Herro and Jovic (and Love, Dipo and Zeller). As you think through Kyrie to Miami trades, bear in mind the Heat are already over the first apron WITHOUT their own FA’s. They probably need to drop salary if they want to do a Kyrie S&T.
1 I am not sure how the time frames for MIA would be different than any other team, since July free agency is almost a month away. There are no looming deadlines for ANY team when it comes to signing a FA, right?
2 We discussed Kyrie-to-MIA before, and I still don't see even a longshot financial possibility for Kyrie (other than the theoretical idea that with s-w's and giveaways, salary cutting can be done).
BEFORE you factor in money for Strus and Vincent (MIA isn't going to simply let those FA's walk away, in any scenario, right?) the Heat are over Apron 2! What's the number for each of those guys, are they MLE or close to it?
The obvious plan would be to throw Strus and Vincent in the trash, plus find a route to an additional 10M or more to slice, and then try to entice the Mavs to do a sign-and-trade that the Mavs are not pursuing (since they want to keep Kyrie)? I just don't see it.
(06-12-2023, 02:23 PM)F Gump Wrote: [ -> ]1 I am not sure how the time frames for MIA would be different than any other team, since July free agency is almost a month away. There are no looming deadlines for ANY team when it comes to signing a FA, right?
2 We discussed Kyrie-to-MIA before, and I still don't see even a longshot financial possibility for Kyrie (other than the theoretical idea that with s-w's and giveaways, salary cutting can be done).
BEFORE you factor in money for Strus and Vincent (MIA isn't going to simply let those FA's walk away, in any scenario, right?) the Heat are over Apron 2! What's the number for each of those guys, are they MLE or close to it?
The obvious plan would be to throw Strus and Vincent in the trash, plus find a route to an additional 10M or more to slice, and then try to entice the Mavs to do a sign-and-trade that the Mavs are not pursuing (since they want to keep Kyrie)? I just don't see it.
I can see a scenario (albeit a long shot and not sure if it's even possible), where the Heat use Herro as the basis for a Kyrie SnT.
My end goal here is for the Mavs to find a way to end up with Herro+Ayton for Kyrie. Lofty? Perhaps. But both teams have needs I think are symbiotic. PHX needs to cut salary (and get depth). Heat want to cut salary and get a star. Mavs have the star, and a few contracts that are easy to waive. Is there a world where the Mavs-Heat-PHX can conjure up a 3-team trade where the Mavs send out Kyrie, Heat add the necessary filler to PHX+send Herro to Dallas, and PHX sends Ayton to Dallas.
(06-12-2023, 03:12 PM)SleepingHero Wrote: [ -> ]I can see a scenario (albeit a long shot and not sure if it's even possible), where the Heat use Herro as the basis for a Kyrie SnT.
My end goal here is for the Mavs to find a way to end up with Herro+Ayton for Kyrie. Lofty? Perhaps. But both teams have needs I think are symbiotic. PHX needs to cut salary (and get depth). Heat want to cut salary and get a star. Mavs have the star, and a few contracts that are easy to waive. Is there a world where the Mavs-Heat-PHX can conjure up a 3-team trade where the Mavs send out Kyrie, Heat add the necessary filler to PHX+send Herro to Dallas, and PHX sends Ayton to Dallas.
Were you thinking Herro is a particular solution to the cap obstacle for MIA? He's just a player with a $27M contract.
In theory that almost works for DAL (they would have to send another salary out, which could be a SNT minimum for Franky or Markieff).
But "the
necessary filler" from MIA to PHX is the issue, and problematic, as there's not set of players to send that can make the trade CBA-legal - plus, it's murky how any of it fits what PHX would likely be looking for.
https://twitter.com/ballislife/status/16...32096?s=46&t=iwQP5yZoJF3Ulzfb9MH7Cg
I think my favorite sports team run. Thought we were in trouble when we gave up a big lead against Portland and lost. Thought the Lakers would beat us. Actually thought we would beat OK . Didn’t think there was any way we would beat the Heat. Really fun to be wrong.
(06-12-2023, 02:23 PM)F Gump Wrote: [ -> ] We discussed Kyrie-to-MIA before, and I still don't see even a longshot financial possibility for Kyrie (other than the theoretical idea that with s-w's and giveaways, salary cutting can be done).
BEFORE you factor in money for Strus and Vincent (MIA isn't going to simply let those FA's walk away, in any scenario, right?) the Heat are over Apron 2! What's the number for each of those guys, are they MLE or close to it?
The obvious plan would be to throw Strus and Vincent in the trash, plus find a route to an additional 10M or more to slice, and then try to entice the Mavs to do a sign-and-trade that the Mavs are not pursuing (since they want to keep Kyrie)? I just don't see it.
Respectfully, this is Miami. They are the best in the biz at this kind of thing.
Step One: Pay SA #18 to take salary. Lowry for Birch gets it done. SA has a floor general to keep things organized in Wemby's first year.
Step Two: Find a third team to take Birch
Step Three: Don't take on too much excess salary in the KI trade. Herro/Dipo/Jovic for KI at $40mm
You now have about $13mm to keep one of Vincent or Strus...probably Vincent
Bam
Martin Highsmith
Jimmy
Robinson Vincent
KI
The Denver blueprint for roster construction has been talked about alot. When you read about their trades and signings, you keep hearing one word. FIT. They know what they have in Jokic/Murray and they find role players who compliment and FIT their big 2. I only hope we can do the same with Luka/Kyrie.
It also interesting to see that they only played 8 guys the whole series. This is normal come playoff/finals time, but to see they acquired 3 of the 8 in this last off season gives us hope.
Murray = Kyrie
Jokic = Luka
Gordon = ???
Porter Jr = ????
Caldwell-Pope = THJ
Brown = Hardy
Braun = Josh Green
Green = Maxi
We are technically missing two pieces from an 8 man Finals rotation. The problem is one of them is a center and the other should be one of these tall athletic forwards like Gordon, Siakam, or to a lesser extent Vanderbilt, DFS, etc. With both needing defense as their calling card.
This view pushes me towards trading #10 for a 3rd wheel like the Nuggets did with Aaron Gordon. This would probably need to be a big.
Then we'd only need our Porter Jr. Or is Josh Green ready to step up and be our version of Porter Jr?
If so then maybe we only need our Christian Braun. The 21st pick in the previous draft. Do we get a pick past the lottery for trading down past 10?
This is where versions of the Atlanta trade would be a homerun for us. Dallas get Collins/#15 for Bertans/Bullock / #10
At 15 we draft the best fit of who could be available. Lively, Hood-Schifino, Leonard Miller, Coulibaly, Jordan Hawkins
New roster compared to Denver:
Murray = Kyrie
Jokic = Luka
Gordon = John Collins
Porter Jr = Josh Green
Caldwell-Pope = THJ
Brown = Hardy
Braun = #16
Green = Maxi