(06-24-2022, 01:05 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]C) It doesn't appear that he thinks very much of draft picks to begin with - he hasn't for a LONG time. Now, you can convince me that Harrison and other new blood might be attempting to change that thinking, but I don't think the organization's approach (for which Cuban is the bottom line) is going to do a 180º turn overnight.
I don't think you and I are directly disagreeing. Since Nico was hired there has been much tea leaf reading about 'how much power does he actually have'/'how much is the way the Mavs operate going to change or is it still Cuban micro-managing and doing the things that didn't work for the last 10 years'. And some people (not you) immediately jumped on the deal as *proof* that the Mavs still weren't willing to spend money.
My point was (and is) that this deal doesn't prove anything like that--yeah, it can be fit to the 'old' MBT patterns. It can also be fit to the idea that Nico is the actual GM *and* that Nico knows what he's doing on the business side of things (a separate question from whether Hardy was a good or the right choice, something I don't know enough to have an opinion on at this point)
(06-24-2022, 01:20 PM)Arioch Wrote: [ -> ]I don't think you and I are directly disagreeing.
I don't, either. I have started every response to this in both threads with some variation of "I agree."
I just don't believe Cuban will ever again buy a draft pick with cash. That's my agenda. Stating that often. It really has nothing to do with your point.
(06-24-2022, 02:15 AM)Branduil Wrote: [ -> ]I don't care too much about Brunson being "untradeable" because I can't imagine the Mavs wanting to trade him.
Meh, I have zero interest in Brunson as a long term starter alongside Luka. We would have to get serious defensive upgrades at the other positions for that to be anywhere close to an ideal long term fit (and even then I'd just want a straight up different skillset than what Brunson has partnering Luka). If he were to be ok coming in off the bench, that would be fine, but I don't think that works that well with the contract we would be giving him. Especially if Wood proves a good fit as a starter too, to where we would want to keep him. Luka, Brunson and Wood is straight up not good enough defensively, especially in the playoffs, unless you literally have all world defensive superstars at the other two positions. If his contract is tradeable he should be one of our primary trading chips, since we have very little of that, with an old roster compared to other teams as good or better than us right now, since the Mavs have had very little interest in keeping draft picks or drafting well and developing young prospects whatsoever.
(06-24-2022, 02:25 PM)Dundalis Wrote: [ -> ]Meh, I have zero interest in Brunson as a long term starter alongside Luka. We would have to get serious defensive upgrades at the other positions for that to be anywhere close to an ideal long term fit (and even then I'd just want a straight up different skillset than what Brunson has partnering Luka). If he were to be ok coming in off the bench, that would be fine, but I don't think that works that well with the contract we would be giving him. Especially if Wood proves a good fit as a starter too, to where we would want to keep him. Luka, Brunson and Wood is straight up not good enough defensively, especially in the playoffs, unless you literally have all world defensive superstars at the other two positions. If his contract is tradeable he should be one of our primary trading chips, since we have very little of that, with an old roster compared to other teams as good or better than us right now, since the Mavs have had very little interest in keeping draft picks or drafting well and developing young prospects whatsoever.
Whoa spicy.
For starters, I believe Brunson is a much better defender than given credit for.
But more importantly, today's NBA is much more about being able to play a lot of different ways as opposed to just one. We still have everyone on this roster that proved to be good enough defensively to get us to the conference finals. Not saying we shouldn't be working to add more defense if the opportunity is there but I don't think having Luka/Brunson/Wood on the same roster is going to hold us back considering the pieces we have across the board.
Are you suggesting we simply let Brunson walk to the Knicks? We don't have money to replace him with anything, it would be a HUGE drop in talent level if that were to happen. If you have concerns about Luka/Brunson pairing I would hope that you're concerns about Luka/Hardaway or Luka/Dinwiddie are even higher...
Hardy cost himself a lot of money by going the G league route. Historically it doesn't go well, the G league is not a good place for prospects to show what they have.
The defense concerns me more than the shot selection. Shooters with no conscience tend to play well next to Luka.
He did get better as the year went on in the G league so I guess I can see why they took a swing at his upside. I'm guessing he's going to be a two way guy because of our cap situation
(06-24-2022, 02:42 PM)StrandedOnBeauboisHill Wrote: [ -> ]Whoa spicy.
For starters, I believe Brunson is a much better defender than given credit for.
But more importantly, today's NBA is much more about being able to play a lot of different ways as opposed to just one. We still have everyone on this roster that proved to be good enough defensively to get us to the conference finals. Not saying we shouldn't be working to add more defense if the opportunity is there but I don't think having Luka/Brunson/Wood on the same roster is going to hold us back considering the pieces we have across the board.
Are you suggesting we simply let Brunson walk to the Knicks? We don't have money to replace him with anything, it would be a HUGE drop in talent level if that were to happen. If you have concerns about Luka/Brunson pairing I would hope that you're concerns about Luka/Hardaway or Luka/Dinwiddie are even higher...
I'm not even saying he's a really bad defender. He's not. But he's absolutely an exploitable target, with weaknesses that can be exploited even more in the playoffs (and I think were, both offensively and defensively).
I really don't think us getting the WCF this season past is a good enough reason to say that's where we are as a team. There are teams that make one off runs all the time. I think a Luka/Brunson/Wood lineup will 100% hold us back from reaching the defensive level of play that makes us being a true contender a stable aim season to season without a bunch of other teams having problems like injuries etc.
I'm not suggesting we let Brunson walk, but I don't like the idea that he becomes an untradeable asset for a team with very very limited assets compared to our competitors, when he isn't an ideal fit. Because it means that our competitors will have a much easier time getting better over the next few years than we will. Some of whom are already better. Not really setting up the recipe for success before Luka becomes a FA.
Nico knows how to do the job. His interview can be interpreted in a million different ways.
"Super talented, still raw...it is gone take a while"
"You´ve got to give young guys a chance to develop"
"We drafted him because we think he will be a rotation player, for sure"
"Not sure about the contract...either way a part of the longterm plans"
(06-24-2022, 02:49 PM)MrGoat Wrote: [ -> ]Hardy cost himself a lot of money by going the G league route. Historically it doesn't go well, the G league is not a good place for prospects to show what they have. PJ Hairston is the only player to go in the first round after being drafted from the G League. Thanasis Antetokounmpo is the only player drafted out of the G league who lasted more than two seasons in the NBA.
The defense concerns me more than the shot selection. Shooters with no conscience tend to play well next to Luka.
He did get better as the year went on in the G league so I guess I can see why they took a swing at his upside. I'm guessing he's going to be a two way guy because of our cap situation
Interesting part is that in the post draft interview Nico put a lot of emphasis on the level of competition. Seems to think that playing in the g-league is more difficult. Meaning that even though a player like Hardy struggled he gets the benefit of the doubt over comparable prospects that played college basketball.
(06-24-2022, 02:51 PM)Dundalis Wrote: [ -> ]I think a Luka/Brunson/Wood lineup will 100% hold us back from reaching the defensive level of play that makes us being a true contender
I get this line of thinking but this assumes that they would play together the majority of the time but we won't know playoff rotations for another year.
Those three right now is basically like 80% of our offensive creation right now with Hardaway and Dinwiddie taking care of the rest. It's not the perfect fit but I don't think those three being on the same roster means you can't have a high level defense. Plus we have no idea what Wood will look like in this system defensively, I mean Sweeney just coached us to a top 5 defense with Powell starting a center and I doubt people on this board thought that was possible.
I also may be in a smaller camp but I don't think Brunson at 25 mil is going to be untradeable, mostly because of the upcoming CBA.
(06-24-2022, 03:00 PM)StrandedOnBeauboisHill Wrote: [ -> ]I get this line of thinking but this assumes that they would play together the majority of the time but we won't know playoff rotations for another year.
Those three right now is basically like 80% of our offensive creation right now with Hardaway and Dinwiddie taking care of the rest. It's not the perfect fit but I don't think those three being on the same roster means you can't have a high level defense. Plus we have no idea what Wood will look like in this system defensively, I mean Sweeney just coached us to a top 5 defense with Powell starting a center and I doubt people on this board thought that was possible.
I also may be in a smaller camp but I don't think Brunson at 25 mil is going to be untradeable, mostly because of the upcoming CBA.
Yeah, I'm not talking about them being on the same roster, I'm talking about them being in the starting lineup and playing on the same unit. I don't see how you pay Brunson 25 mill and not have him playing starter minutes predominantly with the starting lineup. That's what has been happening, a big Brunson contract is just likely to lock that in. Same for Wood for the simple fact he's easily our best big. I do not think that unit plays high level defense together, unless our 3 and 4 are like Mikal Bridges and Ben Simmons or something. Maybe the lineup is moved around a bit in the regular season, but I can't see anything different in the playoffs. It will be necessary particularly from an offensive standpoint as you mentioned.
I also think too much reliance is being put on the coaching staff to just 'fix' the defense. Coaches can do some nice things, and they can hide warts, but at the end of the day they aren't magicians and I don't really think they make players better defenders than what they are, especially when they are past the core developmental phase, they can just do a better job at not putting them in as many situations where they are really bad, which also tends to be much harder to do in the playoffs (which we also saw very much exploited the deeper we went). Also I haven't checked the stats, but I believe the defense starting falling off quite a bit the second half of the season and into the playoffs. This team has like 5 players that get any semblance of minutes that I would even call above average defensively, with probably only 3 playing significant minutes in DFS, Bullock and Kleber. And I wouldn't call any of them elite. That's not good, and as much as it's a huge credit to the coaching staff, I wouldn't rely on them being able to turn fast food into a 5 course meal when that's what they have to work with.
Hopefully Brunson's contract is less than 25 mill and is tradeable as a core piece for a better fit at some point, which I think is likely to come up at some point in the next 2-3 years.
(06-24-2022, 02:51 PM)dirkfansince1998 Wrote: [ -> ]Nico knows how to do the job. His interview can be interpreted in a million different ways.
"Super talented, still raw...it is gone take a while"
"You´ve got to give young guys a chance to develop"
"We drafted him because we think he will be a rotation player, for sure"
"Not sure about the contract...either way a part of the longterm plans"
Interesting part is that in the post draft interview Nico put a lot of emphasis on the level of competition. Seems to think that playing in the g-league is more difficult. Meaning that even though a player like Hardy struggled he gets the benefit of the doubt over comparable prospects that played college basketball.
Oh it's more difficult than college. The teams have high turnover so the chemistry isn't great. Some of them are more athletic than NBA teams because where the raw athletes are stashed. There are also some wily vets in there with lots of NBA experience. Remember CJ Miles or Amir Johnson? They're on the G league Ignite. Just not a great place to showcase for a prospect.
(06-24-2022, 03:15 PM)Dundalis Wrote: [ -> ]Same for Wood for the simple fact he's easily our best big.
If our defense suffers because he's on the court than is he our best big? We had no problem playing Maxi huge minutes in the playoffs despite Powell starting all year.
It's an interesting take and I guess I can understand why people would consider Brunson a liability but I certainly didn't see that last year. To say that Brunson was exploited on BOTH ends of the court during the playoffs though is definitely strange to me because it was clearly the best ball he's played his whole career and there's a very strong chance he's the only reason we got out of the first round. Just out of curiosity, did you think our defense wasn't good enough last year? Who is the ideal player you want next to Luka because it's not like Jrue Holidays grow on trees.
I'm with you that I hope Brunson's contract is reasonable but I disagree that Brunson's defense holds us back from being a true contender.
(06-24-2022, 12:24 PM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: [ -> ]I didn't want to clutter the bigger post by naming a name, but for fun let's fill in Gobert (you can fill in whatever name you wish). The deal is:
Brunson to NY for Burks and 23 (note Brunson is going into $16mm of cap space net of the Burks contract which defeats BYC. This is important)
Powell/Green Dallas 23 and 25 to Utah for Gobert (note how little salary has to go to Utah).
Dallas gets Gobert/Burks for Brunson/Powell/Green and 25. This isn't designed to be equal value. Brunson left. This is taking advantage of that fact and trying to turn lemons into lemonade.
Dallas gets to count the Brunson outgoing along with expiring Powell and Green. Because of this, Utah doesn't have to take on much money and isn't taking on any money past 22/23 if they don't want to. Utah can sell their fans on the fact they got a recent #1 in Green plus two future firsts. Powell is a stop gap center for now.
NY gets their guy and still has a ton of draft capital to play with.
Dallas loses a favorite son, but between Dragic and Burks can replace much of what Brunson provided. In addition, the front court is now Gobert/Wood...a pretty dramatic improvement both offensively and defensively.
Gobert
Maxi
Wood
DFS THJ
Burks Bullock
Luka Dinwiddie
Knicks get: Brunson, Hardaway and Bertans
Mavs get: Randle, Mitchell Robinson and Devonte Graham
Magic get: Burks, Reddish and heavily protected 23 FRP from NYK
Pelicans get: Powell, Green and two NYK 2nds
Knicks get Brunson, keep their best picks to go big game hunting and only give up the guys they’ve had in trade rumors(Randle and Reddish) plus salary dump Burks
Mavs shed a ton of salary and get some decent players, give up the best player in the deal
Magic take on salary for a young player and pick
Pelicans get what Graham is worth(young player and a few 2nds). They have been shopping him
Mavs would be hard capped but could make something like 3/35 work for Robinson
We would be a big team
Luka/Graham/Dragic
Dinwiddie/Hardy/Frank
DFS/Bullock
Maxi/Randle
Wood/Robinson
(06-24-2022, 05:29 PM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHU6hdyHdy0
The most interesting things from Nico to me on Hardy:
1) They massively valued the fact that he struggled and didn't quit and kept growing to figure out how to be a better player in the GLeague context. This is an intangible thing that is really, really important to NBA success.
2) They massively valued the fact that he was the alpha dog on that G League ignite team and that even the vets would look to him and give him the ball.
I very much agree with these two things and it makes me much more optimistic about this pick and also Nico's draft team.
I think the highlights from this game gives a good glimpse of his lowlights and highlights. I believe this was one of the later G-league games.
You see a lot of really careless turnovers. He shot poorly from three in the G-league but I don't have concerns with his jumper. He sort of reminds me of Bradley Beal when he is shooting.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSlYZoE8az8
(06-24-2022, 08:43 PM)Chicagojk Wrote: [ -> ]He sort of reminds me of Bradley Beal when he is shooting.
Perfect comp size wise....and probably the absolute best case scenario for Hardy: a big negative on D that is so potent on O that he is a little positive.
(06-24-2022, 08:54 PM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]Perfect comp size wise....and probably the absolute best case scenario for Hardy: a big negative on D that is so potent on O that he is a little positive.
Read and listened to a couple of analysis. They give a wide range of comparisations. Bad John Jenkins. Low Dion Waiters. Good Jordan Clarkson. Great D´Angelo Russell.
Last one is interesting because the physical measurements are almost identical. And I can also see the play style. Both relying heavily on their outside shot. With 3PAr in the high 0.40s or 0.50s. Both with a mediocre first step. Leading to a low volume of drives and shots at the rim. Also mediocre/bad percentages in the paint.
I think Beal is a way better athlet than both.
![[Image: FV_HCmxXwAIeQOZ?format=png&name=large]](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FV_HCmxXwAIeQOZ?format=png&name=large)