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Rick is a hard ass coach in a world where players are now softer than baby shit. Something had to give.

(06-21-2021, 09:42 PM)F Gump Wrote: [ -> ]Well, not really.

Sometimes, he assigned himself to be on the front line too, but he was ALWAYS the one making the deals and running the show. Who would they target, how much would they offer, how would they try to get to yes, who would do what tasks, who would make the formal pitch to player and agent (if anyone), those were all decided by Cuban.

He's had helpers, to be sure. He's used them in varying ways. But when they have been doing anything major, and anything smaller that can somehow impact anything major, he's always been the real decision maker. We've all seen it play out over and over and over and over, and on a somewhat regular basis it has become very noticeable (as much as he runs his mouth, it's hard to miss, frankly), but no one has cared to focus on that micro-managing and the problems it has created, enabled, and made ongoing. Because, how can it be fixed - like with Jerry, the ego means he's not going to fire himself.

You've been talking about this, at least on some level, for a while now, and I believe you. It sure would be good timing for an article. Do you have sources? Any where you could get an article published?

(06-21-2021, 09:42 PM)F Gump Wrote: [ -> ]Well, not really.

Sometimes, he assigned himself to be on the front line too, but he was ALWAYS the one making the deals and running the show. Who would they target, how much would they offer, how would they try to get to yes, who would do what tasks, who would make the formal pitch to player and agent (if anyone), those were all decided by Cuban.

He's had helpers, to be sure. He's used them in varying ways. But when they have been doing anything major, and anything smaller that can somehow impact anything major, he's always been the real decision maker. We've all seen it play out over and over and over and over, and on a somewhat regular basis it has become very noticeable (as much as he runs his mouth, it's hard to miss, frankly), but no one has cared to focus on that micro-managing and the problems it has created, enabled, and made ongoing. Because, how can it be fixed - like with Jerry, the ego means he's not going to fire himself.

While I agree that the buck stops with Cuban and he has his hands in pretty much everything, the overwhelming blame you seem to be laying at his feet is almost impossible.


It hasn’t been Cuban sitting in his office on trade machines figuring things out then barking orders and exact details to his loyal underlings. Those guys had a HUGE hand in shaping the direction this team would go with everything. Yes, there were times Cuban went rogue and made sure his idea was THE idea, but that wasn’t with everything.

(06-22-2021, 12:02 AM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]While I agree that the buck stops with Cuban and he has his hands in pretty much everything, the overwhelming blame you seem to be laying at his feet is almost impossible.

It hasn’t been Cuban sitting in his office on trade machines figuring things out then barking orders and exact details to his loyal underlings. 

I certainly am not saying that Cuban personally dictated every task to everyone at every point. As I said before, he used the input of others, just like all GMs do. But he's calling the shots, and setting the general direction and limits in what they are doing (or even TRYING), and since every decision is interconnected with the rest (given the nature of the cap and the limits it imposes), his fingerprints have been left on everything.

Beyond that, there's this: a GM can't say "It's not my fault" when he is the one hiring, firing, deciding what they will do (based on his own limits of ability), what helpers he has on each project, creates their direction and limits (based on his own limits of ability), and then the results continue to be spotty at best. Do you think the idiocy of Bob trying to be the coach, to dictate things to Rick in games, and even tell Luka what to do, was without Cuban's sign-off? Or Bob getting to overrule scouts and Donnie and others to draft Green over S Bey? Of course not. And who do you think Bob and the rest (and before the current guys, Rosas) have been answering to - to Donnie? C'mon, of course not, it all flows through Cuban.

Cuban thinks he can do it better than the rest of the league, he runs his team with whatever whims suit him at the moment, and feels he has had no need for someone better than him to be the real GM, so they live with being limited by his weaknesses.

Plan Powder flowed from that. It was the approach that "we can't figure out anything good we can do to make a difference this yeat, so let's do things that, if they are bad, won't hurt us later - and then come back next year and hope for better." It was all defensive, because they couldn't spot the unrecognized talent and negotiate for them at bargain prices, so they just tried to do as little as possible. I think they tossed $15-$20M in potential spending room in the dumper in a recent summer because they had no idea how to get value for it. I think it was the disaster summer of having max room for Kemba, whiffing completely there, and then all they can land is Delon. That's some really bad planning, evaluating and negotiating.

I don't think he's learned, and I think we'll see some guy hired who will be an up-and-comer who can learn on the job, with Cuban's guidance. He'll supposedly be creating his own expert GM. So to speak. While the clock is ticking down rapidly on Luka. I sure hope I'm wrong on this part - I know I'm not wrong on the rest.

(06-21-2021, 10:38 PM)IamDougieFresh Wrote: [ -> ]Rick is a hard ass coach in a world where players are now softer than baby shit. Something had to give.

Counterpoint:   Rick is just a bully and a jackass.    Was he treating Salah Mejri "like a dog" because he thought Mejri had some untapped All Star potential that he could coax out of him?   No, he was just being a bully and abusive against a fringe NBA player because he held all the power in the dynamic and he got off on it.  NBA Players expect to be treated like any other line of high end entertainment talent that fans collectively pay billions of dollars to watch, because that's exactly what they are.  The bottomline is it's a talent acquisition and retainment league, more so than an X's and O's league.     I promise you that Daryl Morey wouldn't let his coaches treat his talent that way.

I'm not going to comment on what RC did to Salah because I don't know, but if Luka even perceived it that way, it's certainly a problem. It's often a fine line between a "tough" coach and an abusive coach, and I think it's critical for players to believe that their coach is being hard on them in order to improve them and not just for their own gratification.

(06-22-2021, 06:36 AM)F Gump Wrote: [ -> ]I certainly am not saying that Cuban personally dictated every task to everyone at every point. As I said before, he used the input of others, just like all GMs do. But he's calling the shots, and setting the general direction and limits in what they are doing (or even TRYING), and since every decision is interconnected with the rest (given the nature of the cap and the limits it imposes), his fingerprints have been left on everything.

Beyond that, there's this: a GM can't say "It's not my fault" when he is the one hiring, firing, deciding what they will do (based on his own limits of ability), what helpers he has on each project, creates their direction and limits (based on his own limits of ability), and then the results continue to be spotty at best. Do you think the idiocy of Bob trying to be the coach, to dictate things to Rick in games, and even tell Luka what to do, was without Cuban's sign-off? Or Bob getting to overrule scouts and Donnie and others to draft Green over S Bey? Of course not. And who do you think Bob and the rest (and before the current guys, Rosas) have been answering to - to Donnie? C'mon, of course not, it all flows through Cuban.

Cuban thinks he can do it better than the rest of the league, he runs his team with whatever whims suit him at the moment, and feels he has had no need for someone better than him to be the real GM, so they live with being limited by his weaknesses.

Plan Powder flowed from that. It was the approach that "we can't figure out anything good we can do to make a difference this yeat, so let's do things that, if they are bad, won't hurt us later - and then come back next year and hope for better." It was all defensive, because they couldn't spot the unrecognized talent and negotiate for them at bargain prices, so they just tried to do as little as possible. I think they tossed $15-$20M in potential spending room in the dumper in a recent summer because they had no idea how to get value for it. I think it was the disaster summer of having max room for Kemba, whiffing completely there, and then all they can land is Delon. That's some really bad planning, evaluating and negotiating.

I don't think he's learned, and I think we'll see some guy hired who will be an up-and-comer who can learn on the job, with Cuban's guidance. He'll supposedly be creating his own expert GM. So to speak. While the clock is ticking down rapidly on Luka. I sure hope I'm wrong on this part - I know I'm not wrong on the rest.

Don’t get me wrong, I love a good Cuban or Donnie pile on. I agree almost fully with what you are saying. The extent to which I can’t continue supporting this rant is that I think the voices he’s talking to will always influence the direction this thing goes in general. 


I fully agree that if Finley or any promote from within or very young name comes in that it puts more likelihood of his ego getting in the way, and the result becomes more of the same. Even still, if that person uses his voice and challenges Mark on things, there is still a likelihood that some of those things get implemented. The chance that those things that are implemented are the same things Donnie would come up with are just shy of 0%. That being said, the landscape of this team is almost assuredly going to change.

Bad news is there is a possibility that landscape looks worse than it does now.

All I’m saying is dealing in absolutes, like you and KL seem to be doing makes little sense to me at this stage of the Mavs process. We won’t know the absolutes for at least a year at this point, maybe even more. We could get plenty of hints as things unfold, but nothing written in stone til we see what kind of influence the new PoBO will have on either Cuban (if he stays as hands on as he has been), or the team as a whole (if some of this backlash hits home for Cuban).

(06-22-2021, 07:19 AM)HanspardsShowerVoice Wrote: [ -> ]No, he was just being a bully and abusive against a fringe NBA player because he held all the power in the dynamic and he got off on it.

Wow, your understanding of how people work drastically differs from my own. This is a very interesting assumption.

(06-22-2021, 07:34 AM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]We won’t know the absolutes for at least a year at this point, maybe even more. We could get plenty of hints as things unfold, but nothing written in stone til we see what kind of influence the new PoBO will have on either Cuban (if he stays as hands on as he has been), or the team as a whole (if some of this backlash hits home for Cuban).

That's fair, to speculate things will be different going forward. I hope they are.

But I've seen nothing in Cuban's style of operation in the past, to make me think that's likely.

I've seen some wonder about how he could hire Cynt Marshall and delegate to her as he did, and still be a micro-manager. But that was a poop storm so extreme he wanted no part of the clean up, and since the optics of the whole organization demanded he steer very clear, it was easy for him to give the mop to Cynt and get out of there asap.

But when it comes to hoops GMing? There he envisions himself as smarter than the league (yet isn't even close to the really excellent front offices and the way they plan and execute roster-building). Someone would have to convince him he is NOT the guy, that he's just not good at those things. And I don't think they can. We'll see.

This whole "smarter than the league" narrative is kinda funny to me.   Of course he thinks he's "smarter than the league".   That's why you trade up for Luka, because you think you're smarter than the 2 other teams have already passed on him, the 1 other team is willing to trade out of the pick, and every other team in the league that isn't feverishly working the phones offering whatever it takes to get their hands on him like you are.   Every team is looking for a competitive advantage, which by necessity requires thinking that you're smarter than the other teams.   And if you aren't based in the New York or California markets,  you damn well better be trying to be smarter than the other teams because you start out at a competitive disadvantage.

(06-22-2021, 07:34 AM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]We won’t know the absolutes for at least a year at this point, maybe even more.

Yep. Time will tell. I am going to keep saying that. Anyone who thinks they "know better" without the perspective of time is just full of hubris.

(06-22-2021, 07:19 AM)HanspardsShowerVoice Wrote: [ -> ]Counterpoint:   Rick is just a bully and a jackass.    Was he treating Salah Mejri "like a dog" because he thought Mejri had some untapped All Star potential that he could coax out of him?   No, he was just being a bully and abusive against a fringe NBA player because he held all the power in the dynamic and he got off on it.  NBA Players expect to be treated like any other line of high end entertainment talent that fans collectively pay billions of dollars to watch, because that's exactly what they are.  The bottomline is it's a talent acquisition and retainment league, more so than an X's and O's league.     I promise you that Daryl Morey wouldn't let his coaches treat his talent that way.

 
This may be a counterpoint, or a simple exercise in debating.  I happen to agree with it.  Over the years I've seen many instances of Carlisle doing just this to Mejri...and other players.  I know nothing about Morey though.

(06-22-2021, 07:25 AM)Branduil Wrote: [ -> ]I'm not going to comment on what RC did to Salah because I don't know, but if Luka even perceived it that way, it's certainly a problem. It's often a fine line between a "tough" coach and an abusive coach, and I think it's critical for players to believe that their coach is being hard on them in order to improve them and not just for their own gratification.

I happen to know very well the difference between a hard and an abusive--person (coach).  This is a very true paragraph.  This is just my opinion so I'm not going to argue with anyone.  If you disagree, or agree, make your own stand!

(06-22-2021, 08:35 AM)ClutchDirk Wrote: [ -> ]https://twitter.com/wojespn/status/1407329086041595905

Please pick him so we don’t even have a choice!!!


Also, please pick him so they continue to have their same playoff woes!

(06-22-2021, 08:35 AM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]I am going to keep saying that. Anyone who thinks they "know better" without the perspective of time is just full of hubris.

Again...who is doing this? The people whose opinions differ from yours? Name names, because I think WAY more assumption is being adopted as fact about other topics recently than Cuban. I would love a baseline understanding of what we're talking about here. 

Are you talking about me? @"fifteenth"? @"F Gump"? Who? I start like every post with "I think" or "in my opinion"

I said earlier this week that I wouldn't begrudge you relief that changes were being made. You realize that my FAVORITE part of the Mavericks organization quit this week, right? After all of your posts about how negatively you felt about the team over the course of this past season (many of which I agreed with, but many that I didn't) you can surely understand how someone else might experience pessimism resulting from a different set of issues than the ones you're focused on, right? Are we not allowed to feel what we feel? We ALL want the team to be amazing. That's why we're here.

(06-22-2021, 09:04 AM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]Are you talking about me? @fifteenth? @F Gump? Who? I start like every post with "I think" or "in my opinion"

I am not talking about you, probably mostly about those jumping on the statements of @"F Gump." He is speaking like he is some special insider. Well then out yourself, or you are just a JAG posturing on the internet like someone who knows stuff.

(06-22-2021, 08:56 AM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]Please pick him so we don’t even have a choice!!!

Why do you hate Mike Dan and Tony so much?

(06-22-2021, 09:04 AM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]I said earlier this week that I wouldn't begrudge you relief that changes were being made. You realize that my FAVORITE part of the Mavericks organization quit this week, right? After all of your posts about how negatively you felt about the team over the course of this past season (many of which I agreed with, but many that I didn't) you can surely understand how someone else might experience pessimism resulting from a different set of issues than the ones you're focused on, right? Are we not allowed to feel what we feel?

I am not being the "feeling police" (please feel whatever you want!). I am just trying to bring some nuance to our processing of the narratives. I am really sorry that your favorite part of the Mavs is gone. I hope you continue to have the chance to mourn and grieve that. 

But there is a very real possibility that your favorite part of the Mavs was a huge part of some terrible dysfunction and the Mavs are going to have a chance to get a lot better now that this has all happened. There is also a chance that RC wasn't part of the dysfunction and maybe Cuban is just toxic and this team is only going to get worse until he dies or sells the team. 

My point: NONE OF US KNOWS and only TIME WILL TELL. 

If those who think Cuban is helplessly dysfunctional are right, then seriously we should STOP being fans right now, no joke.

If those who think RC was a big part of the problem are right, then we have lots to look forward to and should be excited at the changes.

And there are lots of other nuanced possibilities here, I am just offering examples.

(06-22-2021, 10:58 AM)Ti SleepingHero Wrote: [ -> ]Why do you hate Mike Dan and Tony so much?

He coaches a brand of basketball that is great for the regular season, horrible for the playoffs and too many people think he’s great because of it. His best chance to win with his style was with Phoenix, but he couldn’t do it. Then people make excuses that if this or that did/didn’t happen he would have a championship. It’s similar to the LeBron excuses to me when people try to make the GoaT argument for him.

(06-22-2021, 11:04 AM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]If those who think Cuban is helplessly dysfunctional are right, then seriously we should STOP being fans right now, no joke.

I think this is very astute.