(06-18-2021, 01:04 PM)hakeemfaan Wrote: [ -> ]Always used to feel that the MBT did Fish dirty. When they needed to leak some seedy stuff such as Avery getting into a nekked fight in SA to paint Avery in an extra bad light they would use Fish. Same whenever they let someone go and needed someone to throw dirt.
However when it came to picks or real scoop, they would give it to Stein first.
Don't feel bad for Fish. He grinded and grinded and worked his way to become a mouthpiece for tabloid style pieces and roster "stories" that were just pure guesses and what ifs.
Fish carved out a successful media role for himself and has made a bit of money doing it.
I've never paid attention to anything Fish says but always respect someone who finds their niche through hard work and is able to capitalize on it. Fish isn't a Skip or Stephen A level blowhard (or financial success) by any stretch...but just like I don't listen or pay attention to them I don't fault them for creating a character and making bank off of it.
On a local scale it's like the guys at The Fan. They don't really know anything but they create stories (really just infer and guess based on what's already out there) and fill airtime and make a bit of money doing it. I don't listen to them but I'll never fault someone for making a living doing something they enjoy.
It's why I listen to The Ticket. Those guys don't pretend to have any inside information or salacious details. They relay the stories that are out there and discuss them...and yuck it up in between. Their product has fallen off a bit but they stay true to who they are and don't pretend to be some know all, be all, end all wealth of secret information.
@"KillerLeft",
Don’t worry so much about Luka running the franchise. Lebron had Pat Riley in Miami and still left when Cleveland had the shinier toy and he had unfinished business.
Our biggest concern is still KP and getting a proper #2 in here. So don’t forget while the house is burning that there are still bigger problems.
And KP may still be our chance at a #2 option. Maybe his Mavstory is not through being written.
(06-18-2021, 01:27 PM)DallasBasketball Wrote: [ -> ]So don’t forget while the house is burning KP that there are still bigger problems.
Believe me...I have not forgotten what the real problem with this past season was.
One of my biggest worries is the impact this turnover (which was not planned for in advance) might have on the KP situation.
(06-18-2021, 12:52 PM)HanspardsShowerVoice Wrote: [ -> ]Even if you brought in Ujiri, or any other outsider, you need someone to bridge between the old era and the new era who has a first hand knowledge of the existing players and the people in the building to feed him information. The new GM isn't going to want to fly totally blind. Like, "Why do Luka and KP hate each other? Did you try this? If so, why didn't it work? What other things did you try? Why did you do things this way?" That's the role I see for Finley. Quite honestly, I love Finley, but I don't lose a minute of sleep worryign that some other organization is going to steal Finley away with a GM offer. He has a job in Dallas for the same reason John Paxson has a job in Chicago or Alonzo Mourning has a job in Miami and on and on and on.
I don't think Finley is going to be the next GM, because I don't think Rick would have left if that's the case. Mark could have just gone to Carlisle and said "Listen, you're probably upset about Donnie, but I want you to know we're just promoting Finley and keeping things status quo. Nothing is really going to change. In fact, you'll probably have more say in personnel matters as Finley grows into the job." That's obviously not what Carlisle was told yesterday. As McMahon said on The Hardline, Carlisle was probably told that they're going to bring in a new GM and "We'll just see how it goes" and Carlisle, who has probably been sending backfeelers for other jobs, decided he's going to leave on his terms instead of waiting for the axe to fall.
That is a good point regarding Finley.
I’m worried about the impact these changes could have on KP too. The NBA might not be ready for it. The league can barely handle the Mavs with him being a side piece spacer next to Luka. Imagine how they’ll react when he’s actually more involved!
(06-18-2021, 01:29 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]Believe me...I have not forgotten what the real problem with this past season was.
One of my biggest worries is the impact this turnover (which was not planned for in advance) might have on the KP situation.
Yep but other than that we really don’t have any other problems.
(06-18-2021, 01:33 PM)Mak Wrote: [ -> ]I’m worried about the impact these changes could have on KP too. The NBA might not be ready for it. The league can barely handle the Mavs with him being a side piece spacer next to Luka. Imagine how they’ll react when he’s actually more involved!
It's interesting to me that you believe Carlisle is the reason for KP's lack of involvement.
People who want to see KP "more involved" have always blamed analytics for this. They've blamed Carlisle for being too analytics-driven.
Now, we learn that an analytics guy has been meddling recently (pretty much the exact window KP has been here) and that it reached a point where some Mavericks players believed HE was determining the coaching strategies and rotations. Probably way overblown, but that thought is out there, and there's no question that Carlisle has used more and more analytics as the years have progressed.
Clearly, the analytics say KP should just space the floor. His efficiency has actually improved in Dallas, even if his impact hasn't.
My read between the lines is that Donnie was the dude who wanted KP here, and that Carlisle sided (on that issue) with the analytics guy(s).
Donnie clearly wanted more ball-sharing, based on his comments. KP was a big part of that thinking, because those quotes were generated by questions about him, specifically. In the past, Carlisle has valued multiple ball-handlers playing simultaneously, pretty much right up until the point where this Bob guy came into the picture. I don't know that there's correlation there - might be just coincidence.
Are you saying you expect the next coach to be MORE old-school than Carlisle? I mean, I'm sure Stan Van Gundy would get KP "more involved." Just one example.
My guess is that this might be trending more towards analytics, not further away, and that it might be a worse situation for KP in some ways, but that the upheaval, or more accurately the timing of it, might ensure that he's back here to experience the discomfort of it.
A lot of people are comparing Cuban to Jerry. Unfortunately, there is a fair amount of truth to that. I don't think he is as bad, but they share many of the same leanings from a meddling standpoint. I would consider Jerry much less likely to give up power for the good of the org than Cuban. But I do remember a long time ago when the Cowboys were in complete disarray. We had several bad losing seasons in a row and Jerry fired the coach. In a completely surprising move, he brought in a very strong willed, high profile coach in Parcels. This was completely out of character as Parcels had a lot of control not just running the team, but also with personnel decisions. Parcels immediately turned a dumpster fire into a competitive team.
Now the two almost immediately started to but heads and the relationship only lasted a couple of years before Parcels bailed (aided by a Romo fumbled extra point). But the point is, if Jones can have a come to Jesus moment and go totally against his nature, maybe the shit show of the last week will be enough for Cuban to get serious and bring in somebody like Ujiri to run the show.
@"KillerLeft"
Agree that we are likely to move toward more analytics and not less.
- The wave is already strong and Cuban has been riding it.
- Cuban is a progressive at heart and believes whole heartedly in this sort of thing.
- Cuban might even have his ego tied to it.
My take on analytics is basically they help you see the things your eyes/brain might ignore/forget/not see. Making decisions that are obvious is most important, but making decisions that are not obvious is 2nd most important. Carlisle I think had a good feel for that. I wonder if the analytics told him to rest Luka at 6min.
(06-18-2021, 01:23 PM)MaxiThreeba Wrote: [ -> ]Don't feel bad for Fish. He grinded and grinded and worked his way to become a mouthpiece for tabloid style pieces and roster "stories" that were just pure guesses and what ifs.
Fish carved out a successful media role for himself and has made a bit of money doing it.
I've never paid attention to anything Fish says but always respect someone who finds their niche through hard work and is able to capitalize on it. Fish isn't a Skip or Stephen A level blowhard (or financial success) by any stretch...but just like I don't listen or pay attention to them I don't fault them for creating a character and making bank off of it.
On a local scale it's like the guys at The Fan. They don't really know anything but they create stories (really just infer and guess based on what's already out there) and fill airtime and make a bit of money doing it. I don't listen to them but I'll never fault someone for making a living doing something they enjoy.
It's why I listen to The Ticket. Those guys don't pretend to have any inside information or salacious details. They relay the stories that are out there and discuss them...and yuck it up in between. Their product has fallen off a bit but they stay true to who they are and don't pretend to be some know all, be all, end all wealth of secret information.
Ticket should have a 7pm to 9pm virtual round table with all their hosts. Their Woodford Reserve compound discussions are the best. Plus this time all the Mavs stuff happened during the same time they were at the reserve. I know Sturm posts here and he and Norm are considered the most sports knowledgeable guys on that station. However for me Corby’s NBA analysis segments are the best. Not just when he is discussing Mavs basketball but also when he talks about the NBA in general.
(06-18-2021, 12:04 PM)VintagePejav2 Wrote: [ -> ]https://twitter.com/espn_macmahon/status...24000?s=21
Fin & Dirk involved, discussing bringing Kidd in as coach?
This sounds a lot like the
floor is a Fin/Kidd combo, which would be ok by me. Especially if we can get a proven pro like Stotts as first lieutenant. Sky is not falling.
Masai/Mosley sounds better, sure. But I can’t get on board with the chicken-little takes. Whatever front office problems there are, they are fixable. And plainly they are receiving appropriate attention now.
Was Haralabob part of that discussion with Dirk and Fin? I highly, highly doubt it. And I love that it’s basketball guys—not math guys—who are listed as Mark’s trusted advisors.
(06-18-2021, 12:56 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]This is how it starts. This is how you become the Cleveland Cavaliers.
If the "worst case scenerio" is we merely go to 4 straight NBA Finals and win 1 Championship Title because we catered too much to our Generational Superstar, I'll take it. Especially contrasted against what we've gone through the last 10 years under Donnie and Rick.
(06-18-2021, 01:56 PM)hakeemfaan Wrote: [ -> ] I know Sturm posts here
Really? How do you know? Now I gotta figure out who he is!
(06-18-2021, 01:46 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]…
Clearly, the analytics say KP should just space the floor. His efficiency has actually improved in Dallas, even if his impact hasn't.
…
Whoa, there, really???!!! That is welcome news to me!
(06-18-2021, 01:50 PM)mvossman Wrote: [ -> ]A lot of people are comparing Cuban to Jerry. Unfortunately, there is a fair amount of truth to that. I don't think he is as bad, but they share many of the same leanings from a meddling standpoint. I would consider Jerry much less likely to give up power for the good of the org than Cuban. But I do remember a long time ago when the Cowboys were in complete disarray. We had several bad losing seasons in a row and Jerry fired the coach. In a completely surprising move, he brought in a very strong willed, high profile coach in Parcels. This was completely out of character as Parcels had a lot of control not just running the team, but also with personnel decisions. Parcels immediately turned a dumpster fire into a competitive team.
Now the two almost immediately started to but heads and the relationship only lasted a couple of years before Parcels bailed (aided by a Romo fumbled extra point). But the point is, if Jones can have a come to Jesus moment and go totally against his nature, maybe the shit show of the last week will be enough for Cuban to get serious and bring in somebody like Ujiri to run the show.
I think the Cuban/Jerry comparison is pretty lazy, honestly. I mean .. they're two high profile owners in the same city. Jerry fired Jimmy Johnson because he couldn't stand it that someone else was getting any credit for winning a Championship besides him. Not only did Mark not fire Donnie/Rick after winning a Championship, he was so grateful to them that he stuck by them a decade of losing basketball and debacle after debacle out of a sense of loyalty and not wanting to make a change. Cuban just hasn't made that many changes to his head coach or General Manager over the last 20+ years, but the few times he does he goes out and finds the best guy avaiable. He didn't have any familiarity with Carlisle, but he went out and hired him because he was the most respected candidate out there. There has been some revisionist history that Avery was some unqualified bum that only got the job out of familiarity with Cuban, but that's not true at all. Avery was regarded as the best up and coming assistant coach in the league at the time of the hiring. He was personally groomed by Pop and picked by Nellie to be his successor. He replaced Nellie because that was always the plan. Nellie had Avery running his practices and coaching for him when he went out with a shoulder surgery. So I don't really know where this attitude comes from that Mark will only hire his cronies from within. The Mavs have never had a Jason Garrett or Dave Campo, much less a Stephen Jones. And while Cynthia Marhsall didn't stick around for the long haul, I will definitely say there is no way Jerry Jones hires Cynthia Marhsall .. or any other outsider ... to run his business operations.
(06-18-2021, 01:55 PM)DallasBasketball Wrote: [ -> ]@"KillerLeft"
Agree that we are likely to move toward more analytics and not less.
- The wave is already strong and Cuban has been riding it.
- Cuban is a progressive at heart and believes whole heartedly in this sort of thing.
- Cuban might even have his ego tied to it.
My take on analytics is basically they help you see the things your eyes/brain might ignore/forget/not see. Making decisions that are obvious is most important, but making decisions that are not obvious is 2nd most important. Carlisle I think had a good feel for that. I wonder if the analytics told him to rest Luka at 6min.
Yeah, I have no problem with analytics at all. Using data (provided you understand it) to overcome human bias can and should be a positive thing.
I have a slight problem with the idea that mathematics offer a bridge to absolute truth about something like basketball, to the point where a lifetime of experience in basketball is no longer relevant. I could be talked into the concept that such an understanding is possible, but I don't think we're within a century of being smart enough to truly think that way effectively. Right now, it's just a part of the puzzle. Putting the puzzle together should be the goal, not the method.
I don't want to believe that Carlisle went against his own judgment as coach and deferred to someone in situations where he didn't agree. I really don't. That would cause me to lose some respect for him. And yet, that thought is out there, and it is something I can imagine. Gross.
Regarding Porzingis, I just don't connect the dots in such a way that leads me to believe he was held back by some "old school coach." It seems very likely that regardless of who was most responsible, the analytics guys or the coach (who has become an analytics guy, according to many), it was the analytics that decided KP post ups were bad, not someone's gut feeling.
Unless we think the next coach will be less "modern" than Carlisle, I find any prediction that KP will be more involved quite curious. My guess would be less involved, at least in the way KP's most ardent fans envision.
(06-18-2021, 02:05 PM)HanspardsShowerVoice Wrote: [ -> ]If the "worst case scenerio" is we merely go to 4 straight NBA Finals and win 1 Championship Title because we catered too much to our Generational Superstar, I'll take it. Especially contrasted against what we've gone through the last 10 years under Donnie and Rick.
This is a decent point.
In keeping with the young Lebron analogy, my negative slant is due to hypothetical, projective comparisons between the Mavs being Cleveland and the Mavs being Miami in that story. But, I suppose if having an organization on par with Riley's Heat isn't on the table, and it probably isn't, then being Cleveland and simply getting to enjoy our time with Luka on this roster is a pretty good thing we can look forward to.
(06-18-2021, 02:09 PM)Jommybone Wrote: [ -> ]Whoa, there, really???!!! That is welcome news to me!
Which part?
@"dirkfansince1998" has been telling anyone who will listen about how this past season was KP's most efficient, offensively. Did you miss those posts? The irony of that wasn't lost on me, I can tell you that.
(06-18-2021, 01:55 PM)DallasBasketball Wrote: [ -> ]@"KillerLeft"
Agree that we are likely to move toward more analytics and not less.
- The wave is already strong and Cuban has been riding it.
- Cuban is a progressive at heart and believes whole heartedly in this sort of thing.
- Cuban might even have his ego tied to it.
My take on analytics is basically they help you see the things your eyes/brain might ignore/forget/not see. Making decisions that are obvious is most important, but making decisions that are not obvious is 2nd most important. Carlisle I think had a good feel for that. I wonder if the analytics told him to rest Luka at 6min.
Cuban (IMO) likes to operate as an entrepreneur, where ideas and actions are not constrained by a framework and freedom to act is the primary mode of operation. He's made a lot of money that way and I applaud his success.
However, entrepreneurship rarely functions well in a structured environment, that's why new ideas are often initiate by startup companies, not large conglomerates. Apple and Microsoft are a couple of business school case studies. But at some point the organization becomes large enough and successful enough that it requires professional management skills to keep it going, and those skills are usually not invested in the entrepreneur, so it requires outside help to fill the necessary roles.
I'm saying here is that Cuban should keep his baseline seat and stay as emotionally supportive as ever, but he needs to get some pros on the FO side as well as the court so the overall organization is successful. I like the idea of
Masai Ujiri if he can be had from TOR. I'm not a fan of Findley stepping in as I think it needs more gravitas at this point. I like the idea of Mosley, but he may be to Luka as Avery was to Dirk. Help him learn additional play styles and help the team learn how to play deep into the playoffs.
(06-18-2021, 02:33 PM)michaeltex Wrote: [ -> ]Cuban (IMO) likes to operate as an entrepreneur, where ideas and actions are not constrained by a framework and freedom to act is the primary mode of operation. He's made a lot of money that way and I applaud his success.
However, entrepreneurship rarely functions well in a structured environment, that's why new ideas are often initiate by startup companies, not large conglomerates. Apple and Microsoft are a couple of business school case studies. But at some point the organization becomes large enough and successful enough that it requires professional management skills to keep it going, and those skills are usually not invested in the entrepreneur, so it requires outside help to fill the necessary roles.
I'm saying here is that Cuban should keep his baseline seat and stay as emotionally supportive as ever, but he needs to get some pros on the FO side as well as the court so the overall organization is successful. I like the idea of Masai Ujiri if he can be had from TOR. I'm not a fan of Findley stepping in as I think it needs more gravitas at this point. I like the idea of Mosley, but he may be to Luka as Avery was to Dirk. Help him learn additional play styles and help the team learn how to play deep into the playoffs.
Ujiri as the GM and Mosley as the HC is my hope as well. And I won't go so far as to say that it's likely, but I do think it's entirely possible.
You bring up a good point about Cuban being an entreprenuer and that mindset. To me the strength and the weakness of the Mavs has been the belief that they can just outsmart everyone because everyone else is just dumber than they are. And I think Carlisle was a symptom of that as well, because there was a belief that it didn't matter if Carlisle was horrible with players and relationships because the Mavs were just going to out Xs and Os everyone. Welp, we've seen how far that's taken us. That's run it's course, now let's get some people know know how to get along with other human beings and start attracting talent.
(06-18-2021, 02:15 PM)HanspardsShowerVoice Wrote: [ -> ]I think the Cuban/Jerry comparison is pretty lazy, honestly. I mean .. they're two high profile owners in the same city. Jerry fired Jimmy Johnson because he couldn't stand it that someone else was getting any credit for winning a Championship besides him. Not only did Mark not fire Donnie/Rick after winning a Championship, he was so grateful to them that he stuck by them a decade of losing basketball and debacle after debacle out of a sense of loyalty and not wanting to make a change. Cuban just hasn't made that many changes to his head coach or General Manager over the last 20+ years, but the few times he does he goes out and finds the best guy avaiable. He didn't have any familiarity with Carlisle, but he went out and hired him because he was the most respected candidate out there. There has been some revisionist history that Avery was some unqualified bum that only got the job out of familiarity with Cuban, but that's not true at all. Avery was regarded as the best up and coming assistant coach in the league at the time of the hiring. He was personally groomed by Pop and picked by Nellie to be his successor. He replaced Nellie because that was always the plan. Nellie had Avery running his practices and coaching for him when he went out with a shoulder surgery. So I don't really know where this attitude comes from that Mark will only hire his cronies from within. The Mavs have never had a Jason Garrett or Dave Campo, much less a Stephen Jones.
I said there were similarities. Its just at a different level. Jerry is already the proclaimed GM, so his meddling is at the coach level. Cuban is more of a meddler with the GM (although not sure Carlisle was immune to the meddling). The Mavs totally had a Jason Garrett. His name is Donnie. Somebody Cuban likes and is comfortable with, but can override at will (apparently as long as he is not listening to a gambler instead). I think most peoples fear is that Cuban is going to make a comfort hire at the GM level (Finley) so he can continue to meddle in the GM affairs. I will be (very pleasantly) surprised if Cuban goes outside the org to get a GM, and especially a high profile one.