(07-26-2020, 04:16 AM)dirkfansince1998 Wrote: [ -> ]Am I the only one thinking that Gordon is not a good defender?
I haven't really seen him enough to judge on defense. But I totally agree his offense is extremely limited. I see him as a rim running big who can hit completely open threes with decent reliability (higher percent than Powell). I see the potential for him to become a Marion/Iguodala type of player if he accepts his role. Physical tools are certainly there. But he has to accept the role. Is he old enough to be able to do that? Some level of maturity is needed to accept you will not be an all star scorer but a good defensive specialist.
I've watched 2 Magic scrimmages. Gordon guarded Kawhi/Morris and Davis/LBJ. Did a pretty decent job (there's no way you stop them), good post defender with the athleticism to not be bullied. Most of the Magic defense's problems are related to Vucevic. He's that bad. No rim protection and too slow against switches. Pairing AG with KP would do wonders for him. He's so versatile that he can probably guard 1-4.
On the offensive side, most people think he would be a roll man like Powell, the thing is he is rarely used in PnR action so I'm not sure he would take that role, he is more of a cutter. Good finisher, capable ball handler and underrated passer. The only bad thing he has is his mid-range/post-up, which I believe RC will eliminate. Playing with Augustin/Fultz limits his scoring, a lot of times he's open, but the PG opts for a mid-range. Of course his shooting is the biggest flaw (67% FT, 30% 3-pt), but I feel it's worth a try.
My #1 target this offseason is Myles Turner. My hope is he doesn’t raise his value while Sabonis is out during this restart (assuming he is fully out with the foot problem he had to leave to treat).
After him is OPJ as I feel he is the RoCo type upgrade over DFS and his recent dip in numbers is because of returning from injury.
After that is Gordon or Oubre. Followed by Favors.
Any 1 added to a good MLE candidate would be a great offseason. Any 2 of those names (not Favors and another big though) and a good MLE candidate would be perfect.
Standing pat and adding some projects and a decent enough MLE candidate would be a disappointment.
(07-26-2020, 07:51 AM)aguiar95 Wrote: [ -> ]I've watched 2 Magic scrimmages. Gordon guarded Kawhi/Morris and Davis/LBJ. Did a pretty decent job (there's no way you stop them), good post defender with the athleticism to not be bullied. Most of the Magic defense's problems are related to Vucevic. He's that bad. No rim protection and too slow against switches. Pairing AG with KP would do wonders for him. He's so versatile that he can probably guard 1-4.
On the offensive side, most people think he would be a roll man like Powell, the thing is he is rarely used in PnR action so I'm not sure he would take that role, he is more of a cutter. Good finisher, capable ball handler and underrated passer. The only bad thing he has is his mid-range/post-up, which I believe RC will eliminate. Playing with Augustin/Fultz limits his scoring, a lot of times he's open, but the PG opts for a mid-range. Of course his shooting is the biggest flaw (67% FT, 30% 3-pt), but I feel it's worth a try.
Not really buying it. Vucevic has way better defensive numbers. Be it boxscore, on/off or advanced. The pairing of Isaac and Vucevic had no defensive problems. Gordon and Vucevic on the other hand are terrible.
(07-26-2020, 10:48 AM)dirkfansince1998 Wrote: [ -> ] (07-26-2020, 07:51 AM)aguiar95 Wrote: [ -> ]I've watched 2 Magic scrimmages. Gordon guarded Kawhi/Morris and Davis/LBJ. Did a pretty decent job (there's no way you stop them), good post defender with the athleticism to not be bullied. Most of the Magic defense's problems are related to Vucevic. He's that bad. No rim protection and too slow against switches. Pairing AG with KP would do wonders for him. He's so versatile that he can probably guard 1-4.
On the offensive side, most people think he would be a roll man like Powell, the thing is he is rarely used in PnR action so I'm not sure he would take that role, he is more of a cutter. Good finisher, capable ball handler and underrated passer. The only bad thing he has is his mid-range/post-up, which I believe RC will eliminate. Playing with Augustin/Fultz limits his scoring, a lot of times he's open, but the PG opts for a mid-range. Of course his shooting is the biggest flaw (67% FT, 30% 3-pt), but I feel it's worth a try.
Not really buying it. Vucevic has way better defensive numbers. Be it boxscore, on/off or advanced. The pairing of Isaac and Vucevic had no defensive problems. Gordon and Vucevic on the other hand are terrible.
What are the numbers for Gordon/Isaac. I think Isaac is the man. He´d be the perfect fit next to Luka and Porzingis.
We botched that year so badly with that stupid winning culture. There are only four players left from that season anyway (including Seth Curry and JJB).
Just imagine having Markkanen or Isaac growing with Luka/Porzingis.
(07-26-2020, 11:02 AM)Mavs2019 Wrote: [ -> ] (07-26-2020, 10:48 AM)dirkfansince1998 Wrote: [ -> ] (07-26-2020, 07:51 AM)aguiar95 Wrote: [ -> ]I've watched 2 Magic scrimmages. Gordon guarded Kawhi/Morris and Davis/LBJ. Did a pretty decent job (there's no way you stop them), good post defender with the athleticism to not be bullied. Most of the Magic defense's problems are related to Vucevic. He's that bad. No rim protection and too slow against switches. Pairing AG with KP would do wonders for him. He's so versatile that he can probably guard 1-4.
On the offensive side, most people think he would be a roll man like Powell, the thing is he is rarely used in PnR action so I'm not sure he would take that role, he is more of a cutter. Good finisher, capable ball handler and underrated passer. The only bad thing he has is his mid-range/post-up, which I believe RC will eliminate. Playing with Augustin/Fultz limits his scoring, a lot of times he's open, but the PG opts for a mid-range. Of course his shooting is the biggest flaw (67% FT, 30% 3-pt), but I feel it's worth a try.
Not really buying it. Vucevic has way better defensive numbers. Be it boxscore, on/off or advanced. The pairing of Isaac and Vucevic had no defensive problems. Gordon and Vucevic on the other hand are terrible.
What are the numbers for Gordon/Isaac. I think Isaac is the man. He´d be the perfect fit next to Luka and Porzingis.
We botched that year so badly with that stupid winning culture. There are only four players left from that season anyway (including Seth Curry and JJB).
Just imagine having Markkanen or Isaac growing with Luka/Porzingis.
As I mentioned earlier. Gordon is available or at least involved in many trade rumors because Isaac is better, younger and plays the same position. Sadly he is out of reach. They would probably demand KP in return.
For the mentioned combinations:
Isaac / Vuc +1.4
Isaac / Gordon -2.8
Gordon / Vuc -0.6
Gordon / Isaac / Vuc + 0.9
In summary. Vuc and Isaac worked. Isaac anchored the defense and made up for Vucs lack of mobility while Vuc lead the offense. Gordon wasn´t able to do the same in a similar role next to Vuc. Offense was even better but the defense was way worse.
The combination of Isaac and Gordon did not work at all. Worse offense without defensive improvement.
The super big lineup had Gordon at SF. Worked better than Isaac and Gordon without Vuc.
Seems like Gordon only makes sense if this is a buy low situation and Rick thinks he can get good stuff out of his raw talent
Gordon is out of position as a SF in today's NBA. I think he is a piece Orlando knows they need to move while he still has value. Mavs have many options for pieces they could throw at Orlando to get a deal done. I have been of the mind that only KP, Luka are truly untouchable but I am warming up to the idea that Curry is also untouchable save a move that returns a true star (Gordon or Oladipo do not qualify). I think Curry is a core piece. Everyone else is movable for the right deal.
(07-26-2020, 01:01 PM)StepBackJay Wrote: [ -> ]Gordon is out of position as a SF in today's NBA. I think he is a piece Orlando knows they need to move while he still has value. Mavs have many options for pieces they could throw at Orlando to get a deal done. I have been of the mind that only KP, Luka are truly untouchable but I am warming up to the idea that Curry is also untouchable save a move that returns a true star (Gordon or Oladipo do not qualify). I think Curry is a core piece. Everyone else is movable for the right deal.
I always think of Gordon as a PF in today's game
As far as foundational pieces, I don't see any reason to part with any of Luka, KP, Seth, THJ, DFS or Maxi unless it brings back a no brainer. Gordon is not a no brainer.
Gordon would be great but only if you can get him for Wright + Jackson + Brunson + 1st + GSW 2 or less IMO. Rick and Luka would unlock him.
(07-26-2020, 02:32 PM)IamDougieFresh Wrote: [ -> ]Gordon would be great but only if you can get him for Wright + Jackson + Brunson + 1st + GSW 2 or less IMO. Rick and Luka would unlock him.
Maybe I'm out of touch with how much trades cost, but that seems like too much,
(07-26-2020, 02:47 PM)fifteenth Wrote: [ -> ] (07-26-2020, 02:32 PM)IamDougieFresh Wrote: [ -> ]Gordon would be great but only if you can get him for Wright + Jackson + Brunson + 1st + GSW 2 or less IMO. Rick and Luka would unlock him.
Maybe I'm out of touch with how much trades cost, but that seems like too much,
Not ideal but that is the max I would give up for him. Minimum offer would have to be Wright + Jackson + 1st I think.
The Magic have Gordon on what I would consider an extremely team friendly contract (2020-21: $18,136,364; 2021-22: $16,409,091). They also have no one on the roster anywhere near ready to improve at his position. I'd say that with Vooch being locked down for a number of years and their being in the playoffs we wouldn't be able to pry him away for anything reasonable.
As for his fit here on the team he is definitely the type of player that would fit well into Rick's system. My initial question was whether he is effective enough as a screener to really dominate running the pick and roll. But yeah with him, Luka and KP on the floor together that would be a lethal team offensively.
Andre Roberson
He is in last year of contract. Seems healthy but has rest of season to prove it. If healed his defense is gold and Mavs should kick the tires
(07-26-2020, 08:35 PM)ThunderMav Wrote: [ -> ]Andre Roberson
He is in last year of contract. Seems healthy but has rest of season to prove it. If healed his defense is gold and Mavs should kick the tires
Hard pass on brick layer supreme
(07-26-2020, 11:21 PM)IamDougieFresh Wrote: [ -> ] (07-26-2020, 08:35 PM)ThunderMav Wrote: [ -> ]Andre Roberson
He is in last year of contract. Seems healthy but has rest of season to prove it. If healed his defense is gold and Mavs should kick the tires
Hard pass on brick layer supreme
Defense makes up for O. You need D. And his shooting looks better so far he’s had 2.5 years to practice. He hit 2 3’s to secure win today
(07-26-2020, 01:52 PM)fifteenth Wrote: [ -> ] (07-26-2020, 01:01 PM)StepBackJay Wrote: [ -> ]Gordon is out of position as a SF in today's NBA. I think he is a piece Orlando knows they need to move while he still has value. Mavs have many options for pieces they could throw at Orlando to get a deal done. I have been of the mind that only KP, Luka are truly untouchable but I am warming up to the idea that Curry is also untouchable save a move that returns a true star (Gordon or Oladipo do not qualify). I think Curry is a core piece. Everyone else is movable for the right deal.
I always think of Gordon as a PF in today's game
As far as foundational pieces, I don't see any reason to part with any of Luka, KP, Seth, THJ, DFS or Maxi unless it brings back a no brainer. Gordon is not a no brainer.
Eh, obviously you aren't trading Luka for anyone short of prime Kareem or Jordan, and you're only trading KP if you get three top 75 players in return. Seth and Maxi I only let go as part of a package for a top 50 player. Seth's uber-elite three point shooting and Maxi's big man three and D identity are that valuable. THJ and DFS are far more expendable. I like THJ, but it depends on the price of his extension, and if you can get a binarily better player - like Aaron Gordon, tbqdh - you trade him regardless. DFS, I like, and he has something of that Brad Davis quality in that we got him as an undrafted rookie and developed him into a marginal NBA playoff starter, but if you can get a better player back, then of course you trade him. What makes him seem a bit more valuable than he actually is is that he and THJ are our best wings. Horrors. Desperately need two superior players to fill those slots, and yes, AG is one of those guys.
(07-27-2020, 10:19 PM)Scott41theMavs Wrote: [ -> ]Eh, obviously you aren't trading Luka for anyone short of prime Kareem or Jordan, and you're only trading KP if you get three top 75 players in return. Seth and Maxi I only let go as part of a package for a top 50 player. Seth's uber-elite three point shooting and Maxi's big man three and D identity are that valuable. THJ and DFS are far more expendable. I like THJ, but it depends on the price of his extension, and if you can get a binarily better player - like Aaron Gordon, tbqdh - you trade him regardless. DFS, I like, and he has something of that Brad Davis quality in that we got him as an undrafted rookie and developed him into a marginal NBA playoff starter, but if you can get a better player back, then of course you trade him. What makes him seem a bit more valuable than he actually is is that he and THJ are our best wings. Horrors. Desperately need two superior players to fill those slots, and yes, AG is one of those guys.
Regarding Gordon vs DFS, I agree that it's clear that Gordon is the more naturally talented player, but that doesn't always make it obvious which player should play on our team.
DFS operates as a hugely important glue guy who works really well with Luka and is knocking down his 3's. He fits great. Gordon's game, as it exists, isn't the game he'd play in Dallas. We wouldn't want him to play the game here that he plays in Orlando, including his 20% usage.
Delon is an example of a player who is obviously a more talented player than DFS who isn't as productive and effective in Dallas. I'm sure other teams have situations like that. Fit is really important. A player's ability to fit into a role is really important.
I want Gordon to come here, but it's because I think Rick can give him different stuff to do than what he does in Orlando. We don't want Orlando Gordon, we want a Rick converted Gordon. And we don't know if Gordon can make the transition. So there's risk involved. For that reason, I wouldn't trade DFS or THJ for him.
Smallish trade target could be Semi ojeleye from Boston. Bulky wing/forward, good defender, pretty athletic. Enters his last contract year I believe. Doesn't look like he had a breakthrough in Boston so far.
Maybe a 2 for 1 could be worked out around Jackson, Semi and another Boston-guy? They have too many picks anyway.
https://twitter.com/TheNBACentral/status...2158246913
Heat plan to sign Giannis + Oladipo and resign Bam afterwards. Let´s hope they screw up. If I had to pick a big that fits next to KP he is probably a top 3 choice.
22 years old. 16/11/5 61% TS with great defense.
Heat must be really confident that they can land Giannis and Oladipo if they are willing to risk losing Bam. He obviously will only be a RFA but they would still have to match max offers and hope that any negotiations with Giannis and Oladipor are over quickly.