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Porter might be the most gettable of those wings, given his contract and the current state of the Bulls.

(11-07-2019, 08:27 AM)Branduil Wrote: [ -> ]Porter might be the most gettable of those wings, given his contract and the current state of the Bulls.

I don't know, everyone else on that team is either on a reasonable contract or rookie deal. Makes waiting it out on OPJ that much easier for Chi. Wish that wasn't the case, but I don't really think there is smoke there at all.

(11-06-2019, 06:21 PM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ]But everything was pointing out that Mavs were caught completely by surprise

That's what we were all saying as it was happening. After it played out, I think it was clear that that's not what happened.

(11-06-2019, 06:21 PM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ]Please stop selling the story, how signing Wright, Bobi and Curry was a well thought masterplan.

I haven't told that story, ever. I didn't tell that story in my post that you replied to.

If you want your analysis to be more than just fan whining you need to be able recognize the scale by which you grade the team.

If I grade them based on what I wanted -> I wanted Brogdon and Beverly. They didn't even try for those guys. According to that scale, they failed.

If I grade them based on what their plan appeared to be -> They wanted Kemba and Danny Green. Kemba chose the Celtics and running his own team that came with a ready made, high quality, supporting cast. Green chose to play with LeBron and AD. The Mavs back up plan appears to be Delon, Seth and Bobi. When I (me personally) grade this I have to consider the fact that it makes total sense that Kemba and Green did what they did. I also have to consider how the Mavs did with their back up plan. All things considered, I can't call it a fail. I'm not calling it an A+ either. Assigning a grade is a silly, meaningless exercise, but for the sake of this discussion, I'll call it a C (D for missing on Kemba and Green, and a B+ for recovering well).

The grading scale that matters: The real life rubric that will be used to judge how free agency went for the Mavs is the careers that Delon, Seth and Bobi forge with the Mavs, how they contribute to winning, and the return for those players if they're traded.

Note: I didn't include the potential Miami trade in this discussion because I have no idea what happened there. I don't think the Mavs were honest with us after it happened. If you want to grade them poorly for non-disclosure, or flat out lying, then that's fine. At this point I don't care too much.

(11-07-2019, 09:35 AM)fifteenth Wrote: [ -> ]I haven't told that story, ever. I didn't tell that story in my post that you replied to.

You stated: "You still think 2019 was a failure even though Delon, Seth, and Bobi look like great additions, and the team is already playing better than we expected?"

My answer to this is yes, I still think it was a failure and I can't accept a notion that our summer was a success, because our final signings were not our (initial) plan. I may have jumped to conclusion that you support this notion.

The only way I grade - they didn't aquire assets they could - either use remaining cap space for picks like a couple of other teams did or sign additional good players. I don't have a problem with who they did sign, I have a problem with what was left unused. This is bad management for me. Additional aspect - the FO themselves were building up fan expectations before the summer ("we like stars" and similar). It wasn't the fans, it was them. When they failed to deliver, they didn't admit they failed but started pointing fingers at "fans unrealistic expectations".

(11-07-2019, 10:18 AM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ]You stated: "You still think 2019 was a failure even though Delon, Seth, and Bobi look like great additions, and the team is already playing better than we expected?"

That's a question, not a statement. Show me where in that question I called Delon, Seth and Bobi the Master Plan. I actually spelled out to you what I think the Master Plan was multiple times, and it wasn't Delon, Seth and Curry.

(11-07-2019, 10:18 AM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ]This is the only way I grade.

You don't grade them based on their plan. You grade them based on your plan.

(11-07-2019, 10:18 AM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ]Additional aspect - the FO themselves were building up fan expectations before the summer ("we like stars" and similar). It wasn't the fans, it was them. When they failed to deliver, they didn't admit they failed but started pointing fingers at "fans unrealistic expectations".

I think that there's some truth to this. It turns out, it looks like Kemba was the only star they were interested in. They didn't do a good job of managing fan and media expectations or responding to our disappointment. I was with everyone else in criticizing it when it happened.

(11-07-2019, 02:37 AM)JamesConway Wrote: [ -> ]Unfortunately we don't have the assets for a lottery kid who is performing well and is still under his rookie scale contract like Isaac. But the Otto Porter-situation might become interesting. He's overpaid in general and really struggling this season so far. Then you got CHI being awul once again which might to a situation where we can improve the overall talent level without sending out much in terms of value outside of expirings + small contracts. Poter has a player option for next season which adds another unknown factor for CHI.

The Washington-Porter would be a tremendous addition. Low usage-high efficiency player on offense, versatile defender, good shooter.

Let me live my dream dangit! I know that realistically there is no flippin way Orlando would trade Isaac. Especially now that they're finally reaping the rewards of developing him. Isaac barely played his rookie year, and his 2nd year was spent mostly trying to figure out a way to see if him and Gordon could ever play together. This year he finally looks what he's been projected to be.

The thing is I don't think that Gordon and Isaac can work out. They're too similar in the role that Orlando is asking them to play. Isaac is a much better defender, but Gordon is a slightly better offensive player. I think Orlando was hoping that Gordon and Isaac could become the Dame and CJ of forwards, but they're not that kind of talent level. Which makes me think that they're going to move one of them for more offense, and I think Gordon is going to be the odd one out.

And if I were the Mavs I'd be all over trying to trade for Aaron Gordon. He's a bit of a knucklehead (as shown last night), but he's a capable defender. He cannot really create his own shot, but I believe with Luka's playmaking prowess, he can unlock Gordon's full potential of a rim running slasher who's athleticism cannot be matched. He'd be the forward I'd be trying to go all out to get, not Porter. Orlando is 2-6, desperate to make the playoffs after giving Vuc an insane deal, and they're grasping for some offense. I think Gordon should be available for all the same reasons Porter is on the block. He's underperforming, their team is desperate, and he's expendable.

(11-07-2019, 12:18 PM)SleepingHero Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-07-2019, 02:37 AM)JamesConway Wrote: [ -> ]Unfortunately we don't have the assets for a lottery kid who is performing well and is still under his rookie scale contract like Isaac. But the Otto Porter-situation might become interesting. He's overpaid in general and really struggling this season so far. Then you got CHI being awul once again which might to a situation where we can improve the overall talent level without sending out much in terms of value outside of expirings + small contracts. Poter has a player option for next season which adds another unknown factor for CHI.

The Washington-Porter would be a tremendous addition. Low usage-high efficiency player on offense, versatile defender, good shooter.

Let me live my dream dangit! I know that realistically there is no flippin way Orlando would trade Isaac. Especially now that they're finally reaping the rewards of developing him. Isaac barely played his rookie year, and his 2nd year was spent mostly trying to figure out a way to see if him and Gordon could ever play together. This year he finally looks what he's been projected to be.

The thing is I don't think that Gordon and Isaac can work out. They're too similar in the role that Orlando is asking them to play. Isaac is a much better defender, but Gordon is a slightly better offensive player. I think Orlando was hoping that Gordon and Isaac could become the Dame and CJ of forwards, but they're not that kind of talent level. Which makes me think that they're going to move one of them for more offense, and I think Gordon is going to be the odd one out.

And if I were the Mavs I'd be all over trying to trade for Aaron Gordon. He's a bit of a knucklehead (as shown last night), but he's a capable defender. He cannot really create his own shot, but I believe with Luka's playmaking prowess, he can unlock Gordon's full potential of a rim running slasher who's athleticism cannot be matched. He'd be the forward I'd be trying to go all out to get, not Porter. Orlando is 2-6, desperate to make the playoffs after giving Vuc an insane deal, and they're grasping for some offense. I think Gordon should be available for all the same reasons Porter is on the block. He's underperforming, their team is desperate, and he's expendable.

Orlando just is totally incapable of shooting.

They play superb defense and get to the rim pretty well but they really cannot shoot. They had so many airballs or almost airballs it was rediculous. Even uncontested 3s.

Luka did shoot pretty bad as well so maybe it's kind of a desease.

Orlando could use THJr and Brunson.

(11-07-2019, 12:28 PM)SportPsychMav Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-07-2019, 12:18 PM)SleepingHero Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-07-2019, 02:37 AM)JamesConway Wrote: [ -> ]Unfortunately we don't have the assets for a lottery kid who is performing well and is still under his rookie scale contract like Isaac. But the Otto Porter-situation might become interesting. He's overpaid in general and really struggling this season so far. Then you got CHI being awul once again which might to a situation where we can improve the overall talent level without sending out much in terms of value outside of expirings + small contracts. Poter has a player option for next season which adds another unknown factor for CHI.

The Washington-Porter would be a tremendous addition. Low usage-high efficiency player on offense, versatile defender, good shooter.

Let me live my dream dangit! I know that realistically there is no flippin way Orlando would trade Isaac. Especially now that they're finally reaping the rewards of developing him. Isaac barely played his rookie year, and his 2nd year was spent mostly trying to figure out a way to see if him and Gordon could ever play together. This year he finally looks what he's been projected to be.

The thing is I don't think that Gordon and Isaac can work out. They're too similar in the role that Orlando is asking them to play. Isaac is a much better defender, but Gordon is a slightly better offensive player. I think Orlando was hoping that Gordon and Isaac could become the Dame and CJ of forwards, but they're not that kind of talent level. Which makes me think that they're going to move one of them for more offense, and I think Gordon is going to be the odd one out.

And if I were the Mavs I'd be all over trying to trade for Aaron Gordon. He's a bit of a knucklehead (as shown last night), but he's a capable defender. He cannot really create his own shot, but I believe with Luka's playmaking prowess, he can unlock Gordon's full potential of a rim running slasher who's athleticism cannot be matched. He'd be the forward I'd be trying to go all out to get, not Porter. Orlando is 2-6, desperate to make the playoffs after giving Vuc an insane deal, and they're grasping for some offense. I think Gordon should be available for all the same reasons Porter is on the block. He's underperforming, their team is desperate, and he's expendable.

Orlando just is totally incapable of shooting.

They play superb defense and get to the rim pretty well but they really cannot shoot. They had so many airballs or almost airballs it was rediculous. Even uncontested 3s.

Luka did shoot pretty bad as well so maybe it's kind of a desease.

Orlando could use THJr and Brunson.

Bwah hah hah, nobody can "use" THJ, especially not at that contract. I would be happy if the Mavs could get Gordon, though.

(11-07-2019, 12:54 PM)Scott41theMavs Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-07-2019, 12:28 PM)SportPsychMav Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-07-2019, 12:18 PM)SleepingHero Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-07-2019, 02:37 AM)JamesConway Wrote: [ -> ]Unfortunately we don't have the assets for a lottery kid who is performing well and is still under his rookie scale contract like Isaac. But the Otto Porter-situation might become interesting. He's overpaid in general and really struggling this season so far. Then you got CHI being awul once again which might to a situation where we can improve the overall talent level without sending out much in terms of value outside of expirings + small contracts. Poter has a player option for next season which adds another unknown factor for CHI.

The Washington-Porter would be a tremendous addition. Low usage-high efficiency player on offense, versatile defender, good shooter.

Let me live my dream dangit! I know that realistically there is no flippin way Orlando would trade Isaac. Especially now that they're finally reaping the rewards of developing him. Isaac barely played his rookie year, and his 2nd year was spent mostly trying to figure out a way to see if him and Gordon could ever play together. This year he finally looks what he's been projected to be.

The thing is I don't think that Gordon and Isaac can work out. They're too similar in the role that Orlando is asking them to play. Isaac is a much better defender, but Gordon is a slightly better offensive player. I think Orlando was hoping that Gordon and Isaac could become the Dame and CJ of forwards, but they're not that kind of talent level. Which makes me think that they're going to move one of them for more offense, and I think Gordon is going to be the odd one out.

And if I were the Mavs I'd be all over trying to trade for Aaron Gordon. He's a bit of a knucklehead (as shown last night), but he's a capable defender. He cannot really create his own shot, but I believe with Luka's playmaking prowess, he can unlock Gordon's full potential of a rim running slasher who's athleticism cannot be matched. He'd be the forward I'd be trying to go all out to get, not Porter. Orlando is 2-6, desperate to make the playoffs after giving Vuc an insane deal, and they're grasping for some offense. I think Gordon should be available for all the same reasons Porter is on the block. He's underperforming, their team is desperate, and he's expendable.

Orlando just is totally incapable of shooting.

They play superb defense and get to the rim pretty well but they really cannot shoot. They had so many airballs or almost airballs it was rediculous. Even uncontested 3s.

Luka did shoot pretty bad as well so maybe it's kind of a desease.

Orlando could use THJr and Brunson.

Bwah hah hah, nobody can "use" THJ, especially not at that contract. I would be happy if the Mavs could get Gordon, though.

I have the feeling THjr will surprise a lot of people this season. He finally plays with players better than him an is the first time in his career part of a functional group.
He will improve a lot.

I think the only way to acquire Gordon would be to trade Lee, Brunson and Jackson for Gordon. If they don't want the expiring contract, they might want either DP or Maxi to replace Gordon along with Brunson and Jackson. I would be good with both trades. We would have a truly 3rd best player and our rotations could get a little smaller doing a 3 for 1 trade. They aren't giving up Gordon without getting young players back. Maybe we could keep Jackson and throw in two #2's but I would be surprised if they would do that.

I would rather trade DP between him and Maxi if Gordon is coming back because Gordon is a bigger, better and more athletic DP. Maxi can still bring that tough D off the bench.

(11-07-2019, 01:40 PM)BigDirk41 Wrote: [ -> ]I think the only way to acquire Gordon would be to trade Lee, Brunson and Jackson for Gordon. If they don't want the expiring contract, they might want either DP or Maxi to replace Gordon along with Brunson and Jackson. I would be good with both trades. We would have a truly 3rd best player and our rotations could get a little smaller doing a 3 for 1 trade. They aren't giving up Gordon without getting young players back. Maybe we could keep Jackson and throw in two #2's but I would be surprised if they would do that.

I would rather trade DP between him and Maxi if Gordon is coming back because Gordon is a bigger, better and more athletic DP. Maxi can still bring that tough D off the bench.

Gordon would be fantastic as the third guy. I would give up any combination of Brunson, Jackson, Powell, Maxi picks to make it happen. Maxi, Jackson, Brunson would be a pretty nice package, I am not sure Mavs would give that up. I would also be willing to take Fournier for Lee if they want to get off of Fournier's contract. For the sake of argument if you do Maxi/Jackson/Brunson in some kind of legal trade:

Luka/Wright/JJB
Curry/JJB
DFS/THJ
Gordon/Powell
KP/DFS/Boban

While this cuts into the Mavs depth it also breaks loose the logjam of players we currently have. Curry needs more minutes, JJB can probably get a regular spot in the rotation, Wright definitely needs more minutes and Gordon would be a clear 33-35 mpg type of guy. I would love this type of move should the Mavs want to pull the trigger at the TDL.

Gordon trade idea:

Fournier + Gordon + filler for
Powell + Brunson + Jackson + Lee/filler

Orlando would downgrade Gordon to Powell and thus lose some defense but they have a ton of defense anyway. They would upgrade Fournier who is trash to Jackson who is much better and get off of Fournier's money. They could also get Brunson if they value him as a potential starter.

Gordon might be within our reach on draft night. By then we can offer the 2020 1st, the most likely very early GS 2nd round pick, a big expiring (THJr) or smaller, reasonable multi-year deals like Kleber. Throw in some more value (Brunson's contract, Jackson's, other 2nds) and you might have a base.

I absolute LOVE the idea of Gordon alongside Porzingis and Luka. And like I posted earlier today, I think Otto Porter might be attaible relatively soon

PG: Wright
Wing: Doncic
Wing: Porter
PF/C: Gordon
PF/C: Porzingis

what a sick team that would be if we were to pull those two deals off. You could start a smallish, more shooting-heavy PG instead of Wright too.

(11-07-2019, 03:43 PM)JamesConway Wrote: [ -> ]Gordon might be within our reach on draft night. By then we can offer the 2020 1st, the most likely very early GS 2nd round pick, a big expiring (THJr) or smaller, reasonable multi-year deals like Kleber. Throw in some more value (Brunson's contract, Jackson's, other 2nds) and you might have a base.

I absolute LOVE the idea of Gordon alongside Porzingis and Luka. And like I posted earlier today, I think Otto Porter might be attaible relatively soon

PG: Wright
Wing: Doncic
Wing: Porter
PF/C: Gordon
PF/C: Porzingis

what a sick team that would be if we were to pull those two deals off. You could start a smallish, more shooting-heavy PG instead of Wright too.

Pass because of chemistry reasons. Those 2 guys don't fit in.

(11-07-2019, 03:47 PM)SportPsychMav Wrote: [ -> ]Pass because of chemistry reasons. Those 2 guys don't fit in.

Why would they not fit?

(11-07-2019, 03:47 PM)SportPsychMav Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-07-2019, 03:43 PM)JamesConway Wrote: [ -> ]Gordon might be within our reach on draft night. By then we can offer the 2020 1st, the most likely very early GS 2nd round pick, a big expiring (THJr) or smaller, reasonable multi-year deals like Kleber. Throw in some more value (Brunson's contract, Jackson's, other 2nds) and you might have a base.

I absolute LOVE the idea of Gordon alongside Porzingis and Luka. And like I posted earlier today, I think Otto Porter might be attaible relatively soon

PG: Wright
Wing: Doncic
Wing: Porter
PF/C: Gordon
PF/C: Porzingis

what a sick team that would be if we were to pull those two deals off. You could start a smallish, more shooting-heavy PG instead of Wright too.

Pass because of chemistry reasons. Those 2 guys don't fit in.

I also do not like the ability to penetrate of that lineup.
Brunson and more often JJB, both provide sparks simply by increasing the level of penetration into the paint. Not that the "The Don" is bad at penetrating, certainly not, however having one player in the starting lineup that is exceptional at this can certainly give another dimension to the lineup. I like the size on the defensive end, and we saw how size and range can make a tricky defense for the Magic to play against.

(11-07-2019, 05:16 PM)burekemde Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-07-2019, 03:47 PM)SportPsychMav Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-07-2019, 03:43 PM)JamesConway Wrote: [ -> ]Gordon might be within our reach on draft night. By then we can offer the 2020 1st, the most likely very early GS 2nd round pick, a big expiring (THJr) or smaller, reasonable multi-year deals like Kleber. Throw in some more value (Brunson's contract, Jackson's, other 2nds) and you might have a base.

I absolute LOVE the idea of Gordon alongside Porzingis and Luka. And like I posted earlier today, I think Otto Porter might be attaible relatively soon

PG: Wright
Wing: Doncic
Wing: Porter
PF/C: Gordon
PF/C: Porzingis

what a sick team that would be if we were to pull those two deals off. You could start a smallish, more shooting-heavy PG instead of Wright too.

Pass because of chemistry reasons. Those 2 guys don't fit in.
I also do not like the ability to penetrate of that lineup.
Brunson and more often JJB, both provide sparks simply by increasing the level of penetration into the paint. Not that the "The Don" is bad at penetrating, certainly not, however having one player in the starting lineup that is exceptional at this can certainly give another dimension to the lineup. I like the size on the defensive end, and we saw how size and range can make a tricky defense for the Magic to play against.

Me thinks the naysayers of that lineup are nuts. That lineup has crazy chemistry. It would easily be the highest scoring team in the league. The interior D would be a little rough, but chemistry? Wow. Porter is DFS with an elite shot, and Gordon is a huge upgrade over DP in all areas. There is no way that we have the assets to pull this off, but it is crazy talk to think negatively of it if it were to happen! What a sweet lineup! For this team (especially with Porter), I would want Isaac over Gordon, tbh. Elite defender, and has the ability to be a threat as a roll man. Gordon could do that, but our defense would be lacking.

Gonna take more to obtain a player like Gordon imo. He's young, on a bargain contract, and already a good 2-way player. I don't see why ORL would dump him before the last year on his deal unless they get a great offer. If they trade anyone it's probably Vooch or Bamba.

Same thing with CHI; OPJ is exactly the kind of player they need and his contract doesn't hurt them because it's not like they're saving that $$$ for anybody else, no one is going to sign there; OPJ is the best they can do. If they trade someone, my guess is Lavine.

EDIT: Also, I think we need to keep our first rounder next year. We need another wing to add and free agency blows next summer plus we got no space anyways. Donnie is on record saying next year's draft is really good so I think we hold onto the pick unless an all-star caliber player is up for grabs.

(11-07-2019, 09:41 PM)Fuerza1 Wrote: [ -> ]Gonna take more to obtain a player like Gordon imo. He's young, on a bargain contract, and already a good 2-way player. I don't see why ORL would dump him before the last year on his deal unless they get a great offer. If they trade anyone it's probably Vooch or Bamba.

Same thing with CHI; OPJ is exactly the kind of player they need and his contract doesn't hurt them because it's not like they're saving that $$$ for anybody else, no one is going to sign there; OPJ is the best they can do. If they trade someone, my guess is Lavine.

EDIT: Also, I think we need to keep our first rounder next year. We need another wing to add and free agency blows next summer plus we got no space anyways. Donnie is on record saying next year's draft is really good so I think we hold onto the pick unless an all-star caliber player is up for grabs.

I´d be all over Lavine, if he became available. Next to Luka´s he´s easily a 24/4/4 guy with 40% 3pt shooting on a 19.5M contract. Right now ( I know early) he´s averaging career highs in rebounds, blocks and steals. People say he has a great work ethic, too.

He has only played for bad coaches or situations, too. Flip Saunders dies in his rookie season. He´s replaced by Sam Mitchell, who hasn´t had another head coaching job since 2008. Then he´s going to Chicago working with two rookie NBA coaches in Hoiberg and that bald-headed nutjob. Throw in a ACL tear and you have a 24 year old ready to play for a good coach on a good team. Circumstances matter.

But I´d take almost all Bulls players. With the smart veteran signings of Satoransky and Young I actually thought they´d push for the play-offs in the East, so if they blow it up.... Blush

(11-08-2019, 02:13 AM)Mavs2019 Wrote: [ -> ]But I´d take almost all Bulls players. With the smart veteran signings of Satoransky and Young I actually thought they´d push for the play-offs in the East, so if they blow it up....

Yeah, me too. They have good roster on a paper. Which means the first one to go will be the coach, than a new one will make some roster changes if he will not turn it around with this crew.

(11-07-2019, 09:41 PM)Fuerza1 Wrote: [ -> ]Gonna take more to obtain a player like Gordon imo. He's young, on a bargain contract, and already a good 2-way player. I don't see why ORL would dump him before the last year on his deal unless they get a great offer. If they trade anyone it's probably Vooch or Bamba.

Same thing with CHI; OPJ is exactly the kind of player they need and his contract doesn't hurt them because it's not like they're saving that $$$ for anybody else, no one is going to sign there; OPJ is the best they can do. If they trade someone, my guess is Lavine.

EDIT: Also, I think we need to keep our first rounder next year. We need another wing to add and free agency blows next summer plus we got no space anyways. Donnie is on record saying next year's draft is really good so I think we hold onto the pick unless an all-star caliber player is up for grabs.

On the one hand you are probably right on Gordon. And yet Magic are losing games. They haven't been very good, last year might be an outlier. Magic don't have scoring and Gordon is only 13 ppg, just barely over his career average. He is a good player but he isn't a big-time scorer. Magic could conceivably cash in while his value is still high and get good players/picks in return. I think Mavs will have some ammunition between young players and the ability to take back a bad contract, it just depends how much they'd want to do to get Gordon. In my view he is a very good 3rd guy to have next to Luka and KP.

Branduil

ItsGoTime

fifteenth

omahen

fifteenth

SleepingHero

SportPsychMav

Scott41theMavs

SportPsychMav

BigDirk41

StepBackJay

JamesConway

SportPsychMav

fifteenth

burekemde

Mavsfan12

Fuerza1

Mavs2019

omahen

StepBackJay