(10-02-2020, 01:45 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ] (10-02-2020, 01:41 PM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ] (10-02-2020, 01:32 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]I think it's pretty much impossible for the Mavs to reach true contender status before Luka's rookie max extension even happens. Has ANYONE ever done that?
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Holy HELL, is that true? Was Wade still on his original rookie deal in 2006?
So why are we talking about trades and the draft?
We need to break down, who appoints NBA umpires and which are most susceptiable to bribes. Though the truly difficult part will be to install Avery Johnson as the new headcoach of our finals opponent before it starts.
Well I guess we sticky with the easier plan.
To clarify my position on Luka, I don't think we have to do anything stupid to put ourselves in a bad ongoing situation (like take on albatross contracts because the player is useful), i.e. a swing for the fences that could be very risky with the goal of contending right away. But I absolutely believe that Luka has to be convinced that you made significant successful efforts (in terms of the transactions, i.e. no "we tried but..." if not in terms of the resulting on-court product) to make the team more competitive. I don't think any sort of approach of "we'll be good eventually" wrt this coming year cuts it. At all.
(10-02-2020, 02:11 PM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ] (10-02-2020, 02:06 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]That's crazy. I guess it's possible then. I still don't see the Mavs being competitive next year unless they pull something huge out of thin air (or several things) but it's interesting to know that it has happened before.
I don't think it is that crazy. For example, if Wright is upgraded with someone like Schroeder, we sign a Millsap type player for MLE (and both moves work as planned) while all other players at least keep playing at last season level, Mavs are certainly much better than they were this past season. As far as playoffs go, these are basically two legit starters we were missing (Millsap still can be a starter level in playoff, would save him a bit in regular season).
Schroder and Millsap would be a very satisfactory offseason, depending on the length and size of Millsap's deal. It would be a home run if they somehow pulled it off without including 18. That's a scenario in which that approach of giving a questionable floor/high ceiling draft pick time to pay off could work - you addressed your immediate, sine qua non needs without needing to use the draft to do it. The same might be true to a lesser extent if you traded 18 but picked at 31 and that guy turned out to be a major steal.
(10-02-2020, 02:06 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ] (10-02-2020, 02:01 PM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ] (10-02-2020, 01:45 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]Holy HELL, is that true? Was Wade still on his original rookie deal in 2006?
He was in his third year like Luka will be next year.
That's crazy. I guess it's possible then. I still don't see the Mavs being competitive next year unless they pull something huge out of thin air (or several things) but it's interesting to know that it has happened before.
Kind of makes me feel even worse about the Mavs losing that Finals, tbh.
Ok. Do we really want Luka to figure out a way to break the spirit of a rule which is immediately changed to correct the flaw after the season: like Wade did. That is the only way that happened.
(10-02-2020, 02:06 PM)khaled1987 Wrote: [ -> ] (10-02-2020, 01:45 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ] (10-02-2020, 01:41 PM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ] (10-02-2020, 01:32 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]I think it's pretty much impossible for the Mavs to reach true contender status before Luka's rookie max extension even happens. Has ANYONE ever done that?
Holy HELL, is that true? Was Wade still on his original rookie deal in 2006?
Yes, 3rd year. Kawhi was 3rd year too with SAS, Kobe with LA and Shaq with Orlando.
But other than Shaq, all had experienced HOFer who were playing great, among the top 3 coach of the past few decades.
That said, I agree with your point, I don't think we will be a true contender next year and unless Giannis/Kawhi joins us in 2021 then it is unlikely to happen in his rookie deal.
I guess I am old, 64, but I remember that Kareen Abdul Jabbar, (was he still Lew Alcindor) won the NBA title with Milwaukee in his first year. Kareen helped Magic Johnson win the title in his first year as well.
Ughh... Dragic and Bam ruled out tonight. Could be a debacle of a game.
(10-02-2020, 04:12 AM)dirkfansince1998 Wrote: [ -> ] (10-02-2020, 04:05 AM)Mapka Wrote: [ -> ]I´m not sure which teams you see collecting assets and playing winning basketball. I give you the Nuggets by taking a gamble on Porter Jr. - could have gone the other way and they sunk a first.
Celtics have been doing it for years. Ainge is stealing value and draft picks from anyone that is still willing to trade with him. It started with the KG/Pierce trade. He robbed the Nets, Mavs, Hornets and many more. This year they can use three additional 1st round picks to add talent to a core that just made the ECFs.
And they've also wasted a crap ton of assets by consistently missing on all these extra picks and not hitting at a high enough rate.
(10-02-2020, 01:32 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]@"Scott41theMavs" I love your heart.
Personally, I think it's pretty much impossible for the Mavs to reach true contender status before Luka's rookie max extension even happens. Has ANYONE ever done that?
He's clearly good enough to ensure that the team will reach contender status in the future. There's no doubt about that.
I don't see it happening for a few years though, unless a third transformative deal is made, like signing Giannis, or something else on that level. If the process ends up being organic, I still believe they'll get there, but my goodness, they are FAR away from being as good as some of these other teams, imo.
KL I would be inclined to agree with you. But look at the Lakers roster. They have 2 of the best players in the world no doubt. But other than Kuzma there's nothing special there that you can't find at any given time in free agency or trade. And that's not to say Kuzma is all that special but young good player on cheap rookie contract isn't super easy to get.
That patchworked that team together behind their stars. The point is that we have 2 great stars too. Yeah the Lakers are better. Our stars are going to continue to improve. And with a much better rest of roster than the Lakers, I think you can make up the gap between your two stars.
That also is why I think the Lakers are going to be a one time champion with their current roster here. Other teams will improve their rosters to help close that gap and Lakers won't have hardly any ammo to counter.
I wouldn't say sell out to try and win now. But being aggressive and opportunistic I think is the play.
(10-02-2020, 07:54 PM)mtrot Wrote: [ -> ]Ughh... Dragic and Bam ruled out tonight. Could be a debacle of a game.
I'm so sad that we're not going to get to see the series we deserved. These playoffs were so great, and I honestly believe the Heat had a good chance, but they're not winning winning after going down 0-2, even if they get Bam and Dragic back at some point in the series.
(10-02-2020, 08:31 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ] (10-02-2020, 07:54 PM)mtrot Wrote: [ -> ]Ughh... Dragic and Bam ruled out tonight. Could be a debacle of a game.
I'm so sad that we're not going to get to see the series we deserved. These playoffs were so great, and I honestly believe the Heat had a good chance, but they're not winning winning after going down 0-2, even if they get Bam and Dragic back at some point in the series.
Lol, I put that in the wrong thread! I meant it for Around the NBA.
(10-02-2020, 01:12 PM)Scott41theMavs Wrote: [ -> ]Just getting caught up with stuff. A few points:
1) Dundalis lost 100% of his credibility with me when he cited the Sixers as great asset managers who are in a wonderful position. LOL, that someone would think that. They have tens of millions sunk into Al Horford and Tobias Harris, and have few trade assets. They are a trainwreck, and Doc's laissez-faire crap on the court and in the lockerroom is going to hurt, not help.
2) I think nearly everyone in this discussion is losing sight of the fact that we have a player who is by authoritative consensus the fourth-best player in the league - with a freaking bullet. To argue that he cannot compete for a title in 2020-21 with the right roster is a b!tch-slap to him (he has the mindset of wanting to win-now for sure), and a b!tch-slap to the intelligence of basketball minds around the world. Moreover, we are less than a calendar year away from the time to tender him a qualifying offer. If he wants to Gordon Hayward us - see, it does happen, because it has historically happened before - that is when it will happen. We live in a world where superstar players dictate to their current teams and league as to where they want to play. The clock is ticking for the Mavs, and the time is far shorter than virtually anyone on this board takes it to be. They don't need to do anything stupid (KL's concern), but they need at the naked minimum to add a player who will not necessarily be a star, but will be the third-best player on the team right now (which I have said many times over is *not hard to do,* because this team outside of Luka and KP consists of two guys who could compete for being the 5th-best starter on a contending team in THJ and DFS, and a crew of bench players - the Mavs of course believed erroneously that pre-injury Powell was a starter; Powell recovering from an Achilles injury is by all objective measures a bench-level player *at best*). IDGAfreak if they do it by the draft (probably need to move up to do it), a trade, or free agency. They don't have the real-world option not to do it. Moreover, given the quality (snort) of our roster outside of Luka and KP, the guy can certainly be a rental (someone who expires in '21) to keep next summer's options open - it will still mean a more competitive team on the court. If THJ isn't here next year for some reason, then the burden is on them to get two of those players, but that is of course not necessarily harder in the sense that it probably happened by virtue of THJ opting in and the Mavs trading him for one of those guys. Bottom line, relying solely on 18, 31, and the MLE to improve the team would be quite dangerous and foolish (caveat - *unless* the MBT has an internal assurance that the guy or guys they get in the draft are Brunsons whom they know by virtue of their scouting confidence will be able to contribute right away, and *unless* they get a guy with the full MLE who fulfills my above criteria of third-best player - but, that's not at all how at least one person here is thinking), IMnotsoHO, and I'm very glad that people who think that way aren't running this team, whatever the MBT's shortcomings might be.
3) Since when can't we bundle 18 and 31 to move up? Last I heard, we could use them to move up between 2-8 places. If they have a super-Brunson (not position, but readiness) player in mind who would be more likely to be on the board at that point, why wouldn't they do that?
The 76ers have been better asset managers. But they've also had 3 GM's in like 6 years. It doesn't mean they will use the assets wisely. Hinkie was the asset acquisition guy, whether you like his methods or not, he did it incredibly well. I said they had clearly acquired more valuable assets. And they have. If you think the non Luka/KP assets the Mavs have are more valuable than let's say the non Embiid/Simmons collection of assets the Sixers have (players and picks), you are in dreamland, whether you think Horford and Harris are overpaid or not. Even if you were to include KP as a tradeable asset for the Mavs and Simmons as a tradeable asset for the Sixers, it's an easy win for the Sixers in terms of desirable assets. The rest of the stuff is irrelevant. I specifically said a bad GM can ruin any roster. They have wasted a few of the assets they have had over the past few years through poor management and decision making, but they had acquired the assets to build a great team. I'm only saying they've been better at acquiring assets to put them in better positions to build a great team, not that they actually will use them effectively. That was the main point.
Your second point has a whole bunch of exagerrated hyperbole in it. Lol at "it's a bitch slap to him" to live in reality. I'm sure Luka believes he can compete for a title every year, but I doubt he's home crying right now because we lost. He's resting up, and then will be trying to get better and improve his own game, because that's what hyper talented young 21 year old NBA players do, regardless of their supposed standing in the league. They are not acting bitch slapped because they aren't on a contender at the age of 22. I've heard the Luka will leave argument so many times now. I guess I won't go out and drive because there's a chance I might get into a car accident and die. The whole anectodal "look it happened this one time, see!!" is way overdone. If Luka does leave it will probably because we made some bad moves with a win now mindset looking to win it all in the next 2-3 years with age inappropriate players on bad contracts, then when Luka actually enters his prime, we have to rebuild again with limited resources and he asks for a trade. Because typically, NBA superstars are FAR less accepting of roster building or rebuilding when they are in their actual prime, than when they are in their early 20's and years away from it. Who would have thought that. We would get an absolute kings ransom for him, which I guess would be one consolation.
Look, I'd love for the Mavs to win next season. I'd also equally love for them to win in 5 seasons and 10. And if the reality is that it's "unlikely" they are in genuine contention next season, then that is fine as long as valuable asset acquisition moves are being made. It being "unlikely" is a fact for anyone that isn't a total homer, it's not just the current playoff teams, but the younger developing teams that will get better as well as some superstars that will return from injury that will likely make next season even more competitive than this one past. I won't even get into how I think a bunch of Mavs totally overachieved with career shooting years all at once this season past and are probably more likely to regress to the mean than maintain it. Given the state of the team with a 21 year old superstar, I'd hope the MBT understands that they are building for the next 10-15 years like Cuban harps on about, and actually makes the best moves with that in mind. Rather than this panicked emotional hand wrangling because there's this little percentage chance (i.e zero chance) Luka might leave after his rookie deal or be upset we aren't up with the best in the NBA in his third season when he's years off his prime. There's no evidence to me the MBT are any good at that kind of long term roster building, so I'm hoping to see it, that's all. I'm not even commenting on specifics of individual moves made, because I'm not against bringing in for example an older player who fits a role and is likely to only help within the next season or two. But if the team is consistently foregoing longer term roster building moves at the expense of winning right now moves (and yes I get they are not mutually exclusive, if they fit both criteria, great), we'll see what happens I guess, but I'm willing to bet it will bite them a lot harder than another year or two of roster building while Luka is young (while still being a playoff caliber team obviously) for longer term sustained contention.
I have explained my position pretty well - 1) it's crazy not to be concerned about keeping Luka happy - and that involves have a cast around him that can help him win from training camp of '20-'21 onward - in today's NBA, 2) next year, that doesn't necessarily mean a truly contending team, but certainly a much better team, because the team around Luka and KP was extremely talent starved, so I'm not Mr. Gotta-Win-Now, 3) that improvement must include, this offseason, at least one player (two, if THJ is not here next year, which I am in favor of) who is not necessarily the-second-or-third-best-player-on-a-contending-team, but certainly the Mavs' third best player, which I have said over and over and over again is extremely low-hanging fruit, and 4) if you don't do it through the draft, you'd better be ready to do it, efficaciously, through trade (hint: our assets aren't great) or free agency (hint: we only have the MLE).
I am fine with best player available (especially if we can move up a bit and get better player available) regardless of immediate readiness (but if he isn't ready to contribute at 20 mpg by the beginning of '22-'23, can we agree either that his learning curve is way too steep, or that he was a gigantic bust?) as long as the Mavs have another solid plan to get that third guy by other means.
I would make one major exception to BPA. If the BPA can't play defense (i.e. Toppin, Nesmith), then the answer is a flat no, and you move on down your draft board for the selection. Once again, BPA can't play defense, then
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Maybe we could get lucky at 18/31 and get Maxey/Green.
(10-03-2020, 10:23 PM)Scott41theMavs Wrote: [ -> ]Hmmmm.... need to check out Maxey and Reed's offensive potentialities after this.
Thanks for posting that video, but (and I know this stuff is super subjective) I don't really agree with their list and honorable mentions other than Vassell is definitely at the top.
I do not know how they don't include Ty-Shon Alexander (whose opponents only shot 30%) and Robert Woodard II (whose opponents only shot 32%) just as a couple of examples.
(10-05-2020, 12:05 AM)Scott41theMavs Wrote: [ -> ]Don't know if I posted Reed's video.
I had a number of pages ago and also have him as a great possible fit for the Mavs.
(10-05-2020, 12:05 AM)Scott41theMavs Wrote: [ -> ]Don't know if I posted Reed's video. He's going to be fairly high when I redo my draft board.
https://youtu.be/ZRCy45OpCNk
Another one of those guys: Why do we pay Dwight Powell $11M.
Undoubtedly one of these physical specimens will be the next Bam or Draymond. You just need to pick the 1 out of the 15-20 guys.
Kamm, I checked out the Woodard video. He good. Low ceiling, imho, but could certainly be yet another strong bench contributor for us in a year or two.
(10-05-2020, 08:20 PM)Scott41theMavs Wrote: [ -> ]Kamm, I checked out the Woodard video. He good. Low ceiling, imho, but could certainly be yet another strong bench contributor for us in a year or two.
His ceiling is a NBA starting role player IMO. That is EXACTLY what the Mavs need to be hunting for in this draft. He feels like the exact kind of player that fills out a rotation for a championship team. Strong athlete with good length who does the dirty work and can hit an open shot.
Did you check out Ty-Shon Alexander yet? Thoughts?
(10-05-2020, 08:31 PM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ] (10-05-2020, 08:20 PM)Scott41theMavs Wrote: [ -> ]Kamm, I checked out the Woodard video. He good. Low ceiling, imho, but could certainly be yet another strong bench contributor for us in a year or two.
His ceiling is a NBA starting role player IMO. That is EXACTLY what the Mavs need to be hunting for in this draft. He feels like the exact kind of player that fills out a rotation for a championship team. Strong athlete with good length who does the dirty work and can hit an open shot.
Did you check out Ty-Shon Alexander yet? Thoughts?
Great D, not sure how usable his offense will be. And wow, are you high on Woodard.
(10-05-2020, 08:58 PM)Scott41theMavs Wrote: [ -> ]wow, are you high on Woodard.
That's his CEILING in my opinion. I am NOT saying he becomes that. But he is one of the guys I like taking a chance on.
(10-05-2020, 08:58 PM)Scott41theMavs Wrote: [ -> ]Great D, not sure how usable his offense will be.
Ty-Shon Alexander's opponents only shot 30% against him. He regularly guarded guys bigger than him like Saddiq Bey (holding him to 7-23 or 30% shooting in two games), but also chased smaller guys running around off ball or doing pick and roll (he is good at going OVER screens and not getting stuck on them). I really want to know his wingspan as I wouldn't be surprised if it is close to 7 ft because he plays much bigger than his 6'4" height.
He does great staying vertical on defense, not biting on fakes, and often does not have to jump to bother shooters. He also does not foul much, with only 2.0 fouls per 40 mins (2.7 for Vassell, 2.9 for SBey, 2.6 for TBey, 3.5 for Okoro, 2.3 for Woodard, 3.2 for JGreen, 2.8 for Maxey, 2.9 for PWilliams, 3.7 for PReed, 3.1 for Achiuwa).
As far as offense, I see him as an off-ball player who spreads the floor looking for catch and shoot three opportunities (he shot 40% on threes with 6.5 attempts per game). But he has a good enough first step that he can attack the closeout too. He is by no means a PG, but he can create enough in a support role next to guys who draw the defensive attention.
I personally love him as some sort of Marcus Smart kind of player to play alongside Luka. He doesn't need the ball to be successful AND he can guard the guards Luka is unable to guard while being long enough to play switching D.
Here is lots more film to see his game in context:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EEJEmE71OHU