I mean, it seems like I'm arguing against the kid, and I don't mean to. If you can get a player at #31 who eventually comes off the bench to do what DP and WCS do, only cheaper, that's a good pick. If he ends up doing it better than they do, that's a GREAT pick.
I guess what you guys are seeing that I'm not is his potential fit next to KP as a starter. If I've gotten the wrong idea about that, I apologize.
(09-26-2020, 03:27 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]A) he plays a position where most of his offensive/defensive responsibility is similar to what an NBA 5's would be.
B) I don't think it's clear (possible, but not clear) that his dribbling ability, shooting ability and defensive ability will allow him to be a hybrid 3-4 which is what I think they need, and not a hybrid 4-5, which seems to be what he has been trained to be, to this point.
I'm not saying he's not athletic, and tbh, I think he has a future as a 4-5!
1) So DFS was a 4/5 in college with FL, just like TBey. TBey was actually listed as a GUARD last year (believe it or not) but had only two guys bigger than him that played significant minutes on the CO roster (Battey 6'8" and Siewert 6"10).
2) TBey is a better defender in college than DFS was at the same time, IMO (and the numbers back that up). One could make a very strong case that from almost day one TBey would be a better defender than DFS (once he knows the scheme). TBey was the defensive player of the year in the PAC16.
3) DFS shot LOTS more threes in college and has that going for him. But DFS has struggled in the NBA shooting the three until this year. TBey's shooting form in my opinion is significantly better than DFS who doesn't have the cleanest form.
4) I am not sure what dribbling you want from TBey if he is in the Mavs offense....?
(09-26-2020, 03:36 PM)JamesConway Wrote: [ -> ]I'm with KL on T. Bey. Sure, he might be able to put the three ball into his arsenal one day but he hasn't to this point which makes it tough to project an NBA role for him on both ends of the court. I agree that the defensive/athletic upside is there, but if you suck at shooting then Carlisle will either force you to do it anyway (can be hard on a player's confidence) or plug you into the roll man-role and then you're suddenly competing with Powell or WCS for minutes. Good luck with that.
Or, they could work with him and develop him like they did DFS. Especially if they nail him at 31. J. Smith is going lottery. I take T. Bey over all of the other guys you mentioned, running away.
(09-26-2020, 03:13 PM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ] (09-26-2020, 02:13 PM)Scott41theMavs Wrote: [ -> ]My first rough Mavs' big board:
No Toppin, because he doesn't play defense? What about picking best player available? If he falls to 18 you pick him and run away smilling. Because if he delivers on offensive end what every one believes he can, you have a great trading asset on you.
You have Williams below T.Bey? Williams has perhaps even more NBA ready body, both are bad offensively. Williams is 18, Bey 22. Williams is a lotter pick in most mocks.
You have Okoru, arguably best 3-D wing in this draft, at 9, below S.Bey and Vassell? Mocks have him in top 10 at worst, some in top 5.
Re: Toppin: because the Mavs want to be in the competing business, not developing trade assets at the dynamic expense of wins. If Toppin falls to 18, it's because he didn't have that value. And of course he won't. He's more in the category of, "I hope the Mavs wouldn't be so phenomenally stupid as to waste assets trading up for yet another stooge who can't play defense." WRT your other comments, I did say it's rough.
(09-26-2020, 03:41 PM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]1) So DFS was a 4/5 in college with FL, just like TBey. TBey was actually listed as a GUARD last year (believe it or not) but had only two guys bigger than him that played significant minutes on the CO roster (Battey 6'8" and Siewert 6"10).
2) TBey is a better defender in college than DFS was at the same time, IMO (and the numbers back that up). One could make a very strong case that from almost day one TBey would be a better defender than DFS (once he knows the scheme). TBey was the defensive player of the year in the PAC16.
3) DFS shot LOTS more threes in college and has that going for him. But DFS has struggled in the NBA shooting the three until this year. TBey's shooting form in my opinion is significantly better than DFS who doesn't have the cleanest form.
4) I am not sure what dribbling you want from TBey if he is in the Mavs offense....?
I agree with some of this, but not all of it.
I agree that DFS is a successful example of an NBA player who has had to transform his game to make it as a pro. Most players can't, in the time given to them to accomplish this.
Took DFS a WHILE to accomplish this, and I don't think any player will get that much developmental rope here for a while, now that the goal is the 2nd round or better, and not just winning more than 30 games.
I DON'T think Bey would have to do this, because I think he looks (in those videos) like a GREAT modern NBA big, which DFS wouldn't have been (probs why he wasn't drafted, given your note about how he played in college).
You COULD try to put him through the changes DFS had to go through, but instead, I bet he'll be drafted by a team who wants to play him as a big. Seems like a less risky path to me.
We'll see!
https://twitter.com/beyond_am/status/130...92514?s=20
This kid might be Seth Curry on steroids one day. Really intrigueing player Imo, I think he'd be phenomenal off the bench here with KP here & there. Such a great shooter.
Downside: he also could be the next John Jenkins.
He looks like he put a ton of work into his body although I question his handle/passing abilities a bit for an offense-first guard like him.
(09-26-2020, 03:55 PM)JamesConway Wrote: [ -> ]This kid might be Seth Curry on steroids one day. Really intrigueing player Imo
Seems like a really special shooter.....
....but why are we wanting to add more offense and another defensive negative to what the Mavs have? How does this get the Mavs closer to beating the best in the league?
(09-26-2020, 04:05 PM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ] (09-26-2020, 03:55 PM)JamesConway Wrote: [ -> ]This kid might be Seth Curry on steroids one day. Really intrigueing player Imo
Seems like a really special shooter.....
....but why are we wanting to add more offense and another defensive negative to what the Mavs have? How does this get the Mavs closer to beating the best in the league?
'Cause big picture. If he really is Seth Curry on steroids then you just turn the original version into a wing on the trade market. I'm saying: you can always move pieces around later on.
But realistically, none of the kids we'll select will make the difference for us next year. So I remain a bpa-guy. Drafting for fit makes sense when you're really, really close (which we aren't).
(09-26-2020, 04:19 PM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ] (09-26-2020, 04:11 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]Now THIS kid!???
I'm sold on him.
![[Image: giphy.gif]](https://media.giphy.com/media/aVytG2ds8e0tG/giphy.gif)
You don't like him, Kamm?
(09-26-2020, 04:21 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]You don't like him, Kamm?
I do. In this thread I have referred to SBey as "my boy"....I just don't know whether to take you seriously on this.
AND if you like SBey I don't see the turnoff with TBey. TBey is MUCH better as a perimeter defender.
(09-26-2020, 04:11 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ] (09-26-2020, 01:57 PM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]
If anyone wants to see more of Saddiq Bey's personality, here he is breaking down his own film:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6nBlrTCY9Ic
Now THIS kid!???
I'm sold on him.
Hard not to like him. Villanova-product, great size, great shooting, even some post skills. He's probably not as good a defender on the next level as some might think (not a great athlete) but to me he's like a wing-version of Brunson. You just know you'll most likely get a really productive pro for a long time.
#18 S. Bey
Trade up from #31 to ??? for T. Terry
==>
![[Image: giphy.gif]](https://media.giphy.com/media/oYtVHSxngR3lC/giphy.gif)
Then you move Seth for Jrich
==>
![[Image: giphy.gif]](https://media.giphy.com/media/xT0xeJpnrWC4XWblEk/giphy.gif)
(09-26-2020, 04:29 PM)JamesConway Wrote: [ -> ]He's probably not as good a defender on the next level as some might think (not a great athlete)
Yes, SBey is NOT going to be a defensive stopper by any means, you just hope that he breaks even and isn't a negative.
(09-26-2020, 04:16 PM)JamesConway Wrote: [ -> ] (09-26-2020, 04:05 PM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ] (09-26-2020, 03:55 PM)JamesConway Wrote: [ -> ]This kid might be Seth Curry on steroids one day. Really intrigueing player Imo
Seems like a really special shooter.....
....but why are we wanting to add more offense and another defensive negative to what the Mavs have? How does this get the Mavs closer to beating the best in the league?
'Cause big picture. If he really is Seth Curry on steroids then you just turn the original version into a wing on the trade market. I'm saying: you can always move pieces around later on.
But realistically, none of the kids we'll select will make the difference for us next year. So I remain a bpa-guy. Drafting for fit makes sense when you're really, really close (which we aren't).
That's the thing. I'm all for having young guys on rookie deals who can eventually contribute, but the Mavs have greater needs. My take is, you want as close to plug and play as you can get. This year's Herro would be great. If the Mavs don't believe that the guy they would get at #18 would crack the top 8 rotation in year one, then there's no way I keep that pick, because you can't afford to. Too many holes in this roster. Paradoxically, it looks like my biggest divergence from you is in terms of where we are. I believe that both of these are true: 1) we *are* really close, and 2) we have a lot of holes. Confusing? Cherchez le Luka.
(09-26-2020, 04:23 PM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]AND if you like SBey I don't see the turnoff with TBey. TBey is MUCH better as a perimeter defender.
You sure? I'm not. You might be right! (maybe the 20th time I've typed that now).
SBey has ALL of the tools needed to succeed as a wing in the NBA, as the scout in that video goes to great lengths to point out. He seems smart, too, and that's important to me.
We can't be SURE how good any of these dudes will be, tbh. I just like the combination of all things SBey brings to the table.
TBH, I am bringing bias into the conversation. Full disclosure on that. I've just seen so many fans get excited by the idea of a great 6'4" collegiate off guard or SF playing point guard in the NBA because "his size will be such an advantage there!" that I've developed a healthy hatred of that type of thinking. To be fair, it DOES work out sometimes.
There are lurkers reading this who believe that a lineup of Boban, KP, DP, DFS and Luka is the best option Carlisle has at his disposal, and can't even fathom why that wouldn't work. They're STILL pissed that Dirk was moved from 3 to 4 back in the day.
All these years later, there's Jae Crowder in the conference finals, playing the 4. When he was here, people wanted to make him a 2.
I know you are not one of those, I'm just naturally predisposed to hit the BS button on position change projections due to size.
(09-26-2020, 04:23 PM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ] (09-26-2020, 04:21 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]You don't like him, Kamm?
I do. In this thread I have referred to SBey as "my boy"....I just don't know whether to take you seriously on this.
AND if you like SBey I don't see the turnoff with TBey. TBey is MUCH better as a perimeter defender.
Wow, I've never, ever heard that take on Saddiq. If that's true, I might have to put him farther down my draft board.
(09-26-2020, 04:29 PM)JamesConway Wrote: [ -> ]#18 S. Bey
It would be a minor miracle if Saddiq was still on the board at #14, much less #18.
@"Scott41theMavs" The Ringer has him at #18, exactly. He might fall farther than you think!
(09-26-2020, 04:42 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]@"Scott41theMavs" The Ringer has him at #18, exactly. He might fall farther than you think!
What's the Ringer's track record in mocks?
(09-26-2020, 04:44 PM)Scott41theMavs Wrote: [ -> ] (09-26-2020, 04:42 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]@"Scott41theMavs" The Ringer has him at #18, exactly. He might fall farther than you think!
What's the Ringer's track record in mocks?
No idea, tbh. Just saying. It's possible!
(09-26-2020, 04:37 PM)Scott41theMavs Wrote: [ -> ]Wow, I've never, ever heard that take on Saddiq. If that's true, I might have to put him farther down my draft board.
That SBey doesn't have the athleticism or elite footspeed to be a great defender? His low steals and blocks numbers are just one example of this.
SBey is higher on draft boards because he REALLY expanded his offensive game in his sophomore year AND offense is GOLD in the NBA. Defense is an afterthought, especially in the draft. SBey has MUCH more intrigue in his offensive game than TBey.
But frankly for me, SBey's shot being out in front of his body gives me more pause than TBey's form, which again shows a lot of potential to me.