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Full Version: DRAFT: #18 [Green] & #31 [Terry] & trade for #36 [Tyler Bey]
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Myles Turner is interesting if you view him like an upgrade over Maxi and want to start him next to KP. It seems to me that even a hybrid-ish big like Turner isn't what the MBT is looking for and couldn't they just keep Maxi? I think its much more likely you see a wing next to KP next season.
Houston tried to dictate their style of play on teams, how’d that work out for them? We need a guy or two who don’t get pushed around underneath like all our bigs sans Boban do. 

Call them what you want, but KP, Maxi and Powell are not that player to this point. I think Maxi could probably be that guy, but he needs to get more aggressive than he is. Powell has a bit of aggression in him, but I watch him get pretty easily handled underneath. 

A guy or two that plays bigger than they are, that’s all I ask. If we can get it internally (maybe Powell turns himself into more of that guy post injury), fine, but just saying make them adjust to us doesn’t stop them from getting to their spots comfortably while we have to fight for ours.

The bruiser/enforcer could also be one of those guys. Going back to why KP had to be the one to step in to stick up for Luka when Maxi was on the court is beyond me. Had Maxi sprinted to defend Luka, KP would have been the guy that is pulling Maxi out of it to calm him down. Tech on Maxi and KP is still in that game.
(09-15-2020, 10:56 AM)StepBackJay Wrote: [ -> ]Myles Turner is interesting if you view him like an upgrade over Maxi and want to start him next to KP. It seems to me that even a hybrid-ish big like Turner isn't what the MBT is looking for and couldn't they just keep Maxi? I think its much more likely you see a wing next to KP next season.

I like Turner, and I think Carlisle has praised him in the past, but personally, I don't see him as a fit here with KP. I think the emboldened is right on target. It's just a matter of what type of "wing" they can get. They definitely need a guy whose game is a little bigger and tougher than DFS (who I LOVE).

(09-15-2020, 10:58 AM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]Houston tried to dictate their style of play on teams, how’d that work out for them? We need a guy or two who don’t get pushed around underneath like all our bigs sans Boban do. 

Call them what you want, but KP, Maxi and Powell are not that player to this point. I think Maxi could probably be that guy, but he needs to get more aggressive than he is. Powell has a bit of aggression in him, but I watch him get pretty easily handled underneath. 

A guy or two that plays bigger than they are, that’s all I ask. If we can get it internally (maybe Powell turns himself into more of that guy post injury), fine, but just saying make them adjust to us doesn’t stop them from getting to their spots comfortably while we have to fight for ours.

The bruiser/enforcer could also be one of those guys. Going back to why KP had to be the one to step in to stick up for Luka when Maxi was on the court is beyond me. Had Maxi sprinted to defend Luka, KP would have been the guy that is pulling Maxi out of it to calm him down. Tech on Maxi and KP is still in that game.

I'll agree that KP/Maxi isn't the right mix. I think they play well together, but yeah, I'd rather have Kleber coming off the bench. 

I actually think KP is trending towards the tough side with his play, however. Gonna push back there, slightly. I think he could be a little stronger, but I listened to Durrant talk the other day about how much stronger he thinks KP has gotten since NY, and how he can tell that the dude is lifting and trying to get tougher. He's not there yet with his body, but I think his mentality will lead the way.
(09-15-2020, 11:00 AM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]I actually think KP is trending towards the tough side with his play, however. Gonna push back there, slightly. I think he could be a little stronger, but I listened to Durrant talk the other day about how much stronger he thinks KP has gotten since NY, and how he can tell that the dude is lifting and trying to get tougher. He's not there yet with his body, but I think his mentality will lead the way.
The muscle mass is just one part of it with him. The other part is the second nature of how to lower his center of gravity. That can be learned, but he hasn’t learned it yet.

Also, the more he is exhausting himself by muscling his man around, the closer to injury he gets IMO.

One other thing, who doesn’t KD think is a strong player?  Big Grin
(09-15-2020, 10:54 AM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]I can't believe Vogel was even playing those dudes in the first place. Both of them are terrible, imo. 


It's not on Vogel. Davis refused to play center from day 1 since he joined the Lakers
(09-15-2020, 11:47 AM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ]It's not on Vogel. Davis refused to play center from day 1 since he joined the Lakers

I mean, ok, yes...he said he didn't want to play center. Ultimately, however, isn't it on the coach to convince his team to accept the roles that are necessary and most conducive to winning? I get that some players are more difficult to manage than others.

KP made similar comments when he first got to Dallas, and look how his tune has changed. As soon as Davis realized they couldn't beat Houston without making a change, he was all for it. I'm just saying that I think it's up to a coach to get players to see what you see, even in the player empowerment era. The teaching tactics change over the years, but I think the teaching goals stay the same.

(09-15-2020, 11:34 AM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]One other thing, who doesn’t KD think is a strong player?  Big Grin

Maybe I'm misunderstanding your question, not sure. The note I made earlier was regarding comments KD made about Porzingis.
(09-15-2020, 11:53 AM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]Maybe I'm misunderstanding your question, not sure. The note I made earlier was regarding comments KD made about Porzingis.
I was joking saying to KD, everyone looks strong. Big Grin
(09-15-2020, 11:53 AM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-15-2020, 11:47 AM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ]It's not on Vogel. Davis refused to play center from day 1 since he joined the Lakers

I mean, ok, yes...he said he didn't want to play center. Ultimately, however, isn't it on the coach to convince his team to accept the roles that are necessary and most conducive to winning? I get that some players are more difficult to manage than others.

KP made similar comments when he first got to Dallas, and look how his tune has changed. As soon as Davis realized they couldn't beat Houston without making a change, he was all for it. I'm just saying that I think it's up to a coach to get players to see what you see, even in the player empowerment era. The teaching tactics change over the years, but I think the teaching goals stay the same.

(09-15-2020, 11:34 AM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]One other thing, who doesn’t KD think is a strong player?  Big Grin

Maybe I'm misunderstanding your question, not sure. The note I made earlier was regarding comments KD made about Porzingis.

I think playing "center" against the Rockets isn't a thing for AD 'cause he hasn't to defend a center. 
 I also think, when they're playing the nuggets they will try the centers again, so AD can save some Energy  not defending Jokic.

Am I missing something?
(09-15-2020, 01:04 PM)Mapka Wrote: [ -> ]I think playing "center" against the Rockets isn't a thing for AD 'cause he hasn't to defend a center. 
 I also think, when they're playing the nuggets they will try the centers again, so AD can save some Energy  not defending Jokic.

Am I missing something?

No, I agree with that, and said so above. I do think the energy Davis has to expend on defense is a factor. 

But, I think the spread pick and roll between Murray and Jokic is a much more lethal threat than Jokic simply getting post touches. And, I think that while Morris (for example) against Jokic in the post is slightly worse than McGee/Howard, I think Howard/McGee against that pick and pop game is even worse by comparison, and by a significant margin. 

In other words, McGee/Howard playing drop coverage (they will have no choice but to do this because they can't blitz and they DAMN SURE can't switch onto Murray) against the spread pick and roll game is way, way worse than living with Davis (as much as possible) or Morris (doing his best, Kleber vs. Kawhi style) playing Jokic 1 on 1. It's my opinion, but I feel good about it. 

And, I think it's important that we understand that the spread pick and roll offense is how Denver WANTS to play. If you don't take that away, we'll likely never see an adjustment that results in McGee/Howard getting to play 1 on 1 defense, anyway. I mean, look at how much more easily Denver just whooped Utah, once they got into a rhythm. Jokic has been good consistently, despite the presence of Gobert, but Murray was WAY better in round 1!!

Now, playing two bigs probably does get you an advantage on the glass, but if your defense (both transition and half court) is hapless, does it matter? 

This is why guys like Giannis, Bam and Davis (if he ever accepts the challenge) are so valuable. They can do it all. Even Gobert, in my opinion, is starting to look out of place on the court too often. Don't get me started on Adams/Drummond/Whiteside types. They're just stealing money at this point.

From what I've seen, my opinion is this: to do for a team today what Chandler did for the Mavs in 2011 (almost a decade ago!!!) you have to be even more athletic than he was then. You have to be even quicker, ever lighter on your feet. The 2020 version of Tyson Chandler is like a Bam, for example, and to me, the same people who wanted Haywood playing more than Chandler back then are still about 10 years behind reality.

In 2020, "rim protection" is very often about the ability to recover from the three point line, chasing a guard into the paint in order to alter the shot. The days of having a big stay within 10 feet of the rim at all times (against a good team) are over.

Incidentally, what started me on this voyage of thinking differently about the center position and defense was the opportunity we had back in 2010-11, when in less than a year we got to see the same team and coach move from Dampier to Haywood to Chandler. All those dudes are similar in size, but with each progression, SOME (not all, but some) strength was sacrificed for speed, quickness, effort and basketball IQ. Each step in the progression raised the level of the team's play significantly on both sides of the floor, in my opinion. There's definitely a point where you get diminishing returns by pushing this thinking too far. For example, in 2011 Dirk wouldn't have been effective enough at full time center. He needed to play with another big in that era, but it had to be the right type. If Dirk were in his prime today, I'm all in on thinking he would be a center.
(09-15-2020, 01:15 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-15-2020, 01:04 PM)Mapka Wrote: [ -> ]I think playing "center" against the Rockets isn't a thing for AD 'cause he hasn't to defend a center. 
 I also think, when they're playing the nuggets they will try the centers again, so AD can save some Energy  not defending Jokic.

Am I missing something?

No, I agree with that, and said so above. I do think the energy Davis has to expend on defense is a factor. 

But, I think the spread pick and roll between Murray and Jokic is a much more lethal threat than Jokic simply getting post touches. And, I think that while Morris (for example) against Jokic in the post is slightly worse than McGee/Howard, I think Howard/McGee against that pick and pop game is even worse by comparison, and by a significant margin. 

In other words, McGee/Howard playing drop coverage (they will have no choice but to do this because they can't blitz and they DAMN SURE can't switch onto Murray) against the spread pick and roll game is way, way worse than living with Davis (as much as possible) or Morris (doing his best, Kleber vs. Kawhi style) playing Jokic 1 on 1. It's my opinion, but I feel good about it. 

And, I think it's important that we understand that the spread pick and roll offense is how Denver WANTS to play. If you don't take that away, we'll likely never see an adjustment that results in McGee/Howard getting to play 1 on 1 defense, anyway. I mean, look at how much more easily Denver just whooped Utah, once they got into a rhythm. Jokic has been good consistently, despite the presence of Gobert, but Murray was WAY better in round 1!!

Now, playing two bigs probably does get you an advantage on the glass, but if your defense (both transition and half court) is hapless, does it matter? 

This is why guys like Giannis, Bam and Davis (if he ever accepts the challenge) are so valuable. They can do it all. Even Gobert, in my opinion, is starting to look out of place on the court too often. Don't get me started on Adams/Drummond/Whiteside types. They're just stealing money at this point.

From what I've seen, my opinion is this: to do for a team today what Chandler did for the Mavs in 2011 (almost a decade ago!!!) you have to be even more athletic than he was then. You have to be even quicker, ever lighter on your feet. The 2020 version of Tyson Chandler is like a Bam, for example, and to me, the same people who wanted Haywood playing more than Chandler back then are still about 10 years behind reality.

In 2020, "rim protection" is very often about the ability to recover from the three point line, chasing a guard into the paint in order to alter the shot. The days of having a big stay within 10 feet of the rim at all times (against a good team) are over.

Incidentally, what started me on this voyage of thinking differently about the center position and defense was the opportunity we had back in 2010-11, when in less than a year we got to see the same team and coach move from Dampier to Haywood to Chandler. All those dudes are similar in size, but with each progression, SOME (not all, but some) strength was sacrificed for speed, quickness, effort and basketball IQ. Each step in the progression raised the level of the team's play significantly on both sides of the floor, in my opinion. There's definitely a point where you get diminishing returns by pushing this thinking too far. For example, in 2011 Dirk wouldn't have been effective enough at full time center. He needed to play with another big in that era, but it had to be the right type. If Dirk were in his prime today, I'm all in on thinking he would be a center.

It's a change of officiatung too.
I just watched a 2001 playoff game. 
Nobody tried to drive into a big, because it's a automatic no-call. Today it's a automatic call. 
As long as this is ruled like that, bigs have to be skilled and agil.
@"Mapka" great observation on the officiating! You're absolutely right! I hadn't even thought about it from that angle, really, but it makes total sense.
(09-15-2020, 11:00 AM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-15-2020, 10:56 AM)StepBackJay Wrote: [ -> ]Myles Turner is interesting if you view him like an upgrade over Maxi and want to start him next to KP. It seems to me that even a hybrid-ish big like Turner isn't what the MBT is looking for and couldn't they just keep Maxi? I think its much more likely you see a wing next to KP next season.

I like Turner, and I think Carlisle has praised him in the past, but personally, I don't see him as a fit here with KP. I think the emboldened is right on target. It's just a matter of what type of "wing" they can get. They definitely need a guy whose game is a little bigger and tougher than DFS (who I LOVE).

I would settle for a taller, longer, more athletic version of DFS as the four. Since this is the draft thread, I would like to recommend a Bey... Sign a rent-a-bruiser type to start while you develop the kid, and hopefully have him ready by the playoffs.
(09-16-2020, 06:11 PM)Scott41theMavs Wrote: [ -> ]I would settle for a taller, longer, more athletic version of DFS as the four. Since this is the draft thread, I would like to recommend a Bey... Sign a rent-a-bruiser type to start while you develop the kid, and hopefully have him ready by the playoffs.

I don't think that would be "settling."  I think that's living the dream, my dude. Very few of those players exist.
(09-16-2020, 06:26 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-16-2020, 06:11 PM)Scott41theMavs Wrote: [ -> ]I would settle for a taller, longer, more athletic version of DFS as the four. Since this is the draft thread, I would like to recommend a Bey... Sign a rent-a-bruiser type to start while you develop the kid, and hopefully have him ready by the playoffs.

I don't think that would be "settling." I think that's living the dream, my dude. Very few of those players exist.

I haven't researched them, but other names in mocks who could potentially be there and fill the bill - Achiuwa, Patrick Williams, Jalen Smith?

Of course, I'm dreamin' and we're gonna trade that pick.
Oh, geez, I have no idea who most of the draft guys are. I don't watch college basketball at all. I just meant players who fit your description who are already in the league and know how to contribute meaningfully in the way the Mavs would need. 

Those dudes are rare.
I want to believe that #18 is going to be great but I know Delon Wright and Justin Anderson were picks 20 and 21 a few years ago. A lot these 3D guys we like now were random 2nd rounders.
(09-16-2020, 07:37 PM)StepBackJay Wrote: [ -> ]I want to believe that #18 is going to be great but I know Delon Wright and Justin Anderson were picks 20 and 21 a few years ago. A lot these 3D guys we like now were random 2nd rounders.

Quality scouting and talent evaluation matter! The Mavs can either trust that they can do that or go out and hire someone who can.
(09-16-2020, 08:16 PM)Scott41theMavs Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-16-2020, 07:37 PM)StepBackJay Wrote: [ -> ]I want to believe that #18 is going to be great but I know Delon Wright and Justin Anderson were picks 20 and 21 a few years ago. A lot these 3D guys we like now were random 2nd rounders.

Quality scouting and talent evaluation matter! The Mavs can either trust that they can do that or go out and hire someone who can.

Hey, no argument that their track record in this department is spotty, and that they could and should do a better job with the draft. But in all honesty there are really two sets of variables involved: 1) evaluating talent/skills while projecting how they'll fit into the pro game and 2) evaluating character to determine who will evolve into a pro and who will become Dennis Smith Jr.

#1 is doable, and they should endeavor to be the best they can be with that. #2? I'm sorry, but I feel like that's like 90% luck.
(09-16-2020, 08:19 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-16-2020, 08:16 PM)Scott41theMavs Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-16-2020, 07:37 PM)StepBackJay Wrote: [ -> ]I want to believe that #18 is going to be great but I know Delon Wright and Justin Anderson were picks 20 and 21 a few years ago. A lot these 3D guys we like now were random 2nd rounders.

Quality scouting and talent evaluation matter! The Mavs can either trust that they can do that or go out and hire someone who can.

Hey, no argument that their track record in this department is spotty, and that they could and should do a better job with the draft. But in all honesty there are really two sets of variables involved: 1) evaluating talent/skills while projecting how they'll fit into the pro game and 2) evaluating character to determine who will evolve into a pro and who will become Dennis Smith Jr.

#1 is doable, and they should endeavor to be the best they can be with that. #2? I'm sorry, but I feel like that's like 90% luck.

Eh, I think there's some skill involved with 2) as well. You could argue that the Mavs have done better with it than most given their recent good track record with undrafteds. The Spurs are something of a gold standard in that department, unless one sees them as simply going after company men.
@"Scott41theMavs" I agree about the Mavs and Spurs and think culture, chemistry and continuity have a lot to do with that. 

Maybe these traits are more difficult to see in players who've gotten by on talent all their lives? IDK, but there's something difficult about it, not sure what. It's not only the Mavs who can't get it right. There are knuckleheads everywhere in the NBA. Listening to Simmons and Russillo do the "redraftables" non-stop during quarantine made it abundantly clear to me that in any given draft, there are roughly 8-15 total players who end up contributing...well, anything. Like, Devin Harris and Josh Howard are, imo, two very successful draft selections when compared to the league norm.

Again, I do think the Mavs have to find a way to use the draft more effectively. No argument there whatsoever.