MavsBoard

Kamm is obsessed with having 2 centers...

(12-09-2020, 10:52 AM)StepBackJay Wrote: [ -> ]Kamm is obsessed with having 2 centers...

Not actually true.


My generic stance/priorities:

1) I want TALENT and players that have a history of impacting WINNING.



2) I want players that FIT and COMPLEMENT each other.


So above ALL I want talent and winning impact (far and above anything else). I think Giannis (1) and Gobert (2) are head and shoulders above the any other possibly/realistically available players this coming off-season.

But I DO care about FIT. This is why I did NOT want Kemba in DAL (and didn't think he was good enough for the poor fit). I think he was/is a poor fit defensively and cannot have a winning impact without the ball in his hands (hence BOS was better with Hayward playing and Kemba sitting). 

Contrary to the opinion of the "crowd" I think Gobert actually fits quite well (not as good as Giannis though) in DAL. I think he makes KP and the team better defensively and also gives Luka an elite screen-setter and roller (which we have seen with DP as the MOST important thing for Luka to have). And he also allows KP to rest his body more. 


So really the only reason I really want a second big is because I think that HELPS KP and Luka. Others can disagree, but I think there is enough data my way that you cannot outright dismiss my opinion.

P.S. If DP is close to his previous self he may be enough of a "second big" to not pursue another. But if Luka doesn't have someone like DP who is elite at screen-setting and rolling then Luka will not be as impactful on the court. I of course hope KP can be that, but so far he is NOT.

Kamm did you or did you not advocate for Vucevic last year as strongly as you are advocating for Gobert this year?

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(12-09-2020, 11:08 AM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]P.S. If DP is close to his previous self he may be enough of a "second big" to not pursue another. But if Luka doesn't have someone like DP who is elite at screen-setting and rolling then Luka will not be as impactful on the court. I of course hope KP can be that, but so far he is NOT.

Who's to say current DP isn't as good or nearly as good at this sort of thing as he was before the injury. Can we at least see what 40 mil dollar DP can do this season before we sign up for 100 million dollar Gobert on top of Powell?

(12-09-2020, 11:40 AM)StepBackJay Wrote: [ -> ]Kamm did you or did you not advocate for Vucevic last year as strongly as you are advocating for Gobert this year?

I know he likes Vuc...I missed last year though. Was he arguing for Vuc WITH KP? 

I agree with him that Vuc is a good, underrated player, but he's a worse fit with KP than Gobert, even.

Also DP isn't great defensively but he fits on paper at least more of what Rick wants his frontcourt to look like. That is to say that DP can rotate out to the perimeter vs Gobert would need to stand near the rim thus making KP run around the perimeter. I have seen no evidence that Rick wants KP doing that either with or with Dwight KP defensively started as the center for every single game I can count other than the 1 game where Boban started next to him.

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(12-09-2020, 11:43 AM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]I know he likes Vuc...I missed last year though. Was he arguing for Vuc WITH KP? 

I agree with him that Vuc is a good, underrated player, but he's a worse fit with KP than Gobert, even.

He was pitching Vuc as hard or harder than Gobert.

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So if Kamm had his way we'd have a 200 million dollar Vuc/KP frontcourt at this moment.

Well, at least we know @"Kammrath" is consistent, and that he really believes what he's selling. I respect that. 

Question, for either of you: Did the Mavs give any indication whatsoever that they were at all interested in Vucevic last summer?

I was indeed advocating for Vuc last summer:

1) TALENT (PER of 19+ for six straight years with 25.5 and 21.9 the last two) and WINNING IMPACT (+5.8, +6.0, +8.9, +4.3 the last four years).

2) BUT I did/do have many more questions about his fit than Gobert (Vuc is not the defender nor the screener/roller that Gobert is). 


I was ultimately fine that the Mavs didn't pursue him, but I was incredibly frustrated they supposedly chased Kemba.


I think Gobert makes much MORE sense than Vuc (who again I liked for talent and winning impact more than fit).


P.S. I never said I wanted Vuc for $25M/per (what he signed), I was hopeful the Mavs could get in the conversation for $20M. 

P.P.S. My suggesting of Vuc was largely in foil/contrast to people obsessing over Kemba (b/c I 100% believe Vuc would be better in DAL than Kemba). In a similar way I am suggesting Gobert in part because I think it is a BETTER option than many of the ideas thrown around.

(12-09-2020, 11:54 AM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]Did the Mavs give any indication whatsoever that they were at all interested in Vucevic last summer?

They did not. But I assume they kicked the tires at a certain pricepoint, but that is speculation. 

I still doubt the Mavs were all in on Kemba (don't trust Fish on this one) and think they were allowing themselves to be used by him for leverage. I partly hold this view because I want to trust the MBT and I think Kemba would have been really silly with a max contract.

(12-09-2020, 12:00 PM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]I still doubt the Mavs were all in on Kemba (don't trust Fish on this one) and think they were allowing themselves to be used by him for leverage. I partly hold this view because I want to trust the MBT and I think Kemba would have been really silly with a max contract.

So your hypothesis is that Donnie worked WITH a Charlotte player to make sure said player got overpaid (in your opinion) by his buddy Danny Ainge?

My hypothesis is/was that DAL allowed themselves to be used by Jeff Schwartz, a good friend/agent of theirs to give Kemba leverage in negotiations with CHA. 

I don't think it had anything to do with the eventual move to BOS.

(12-09-2020, 12:07 PM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]My hypothesis is/was that DAL allowed themselves to be used by Jeff Schwartz, a good friend/agent of theirs to give Kemba leverage in negotiations with CHA. 

I don't think it had anything to do with the eventual move to BOS.

Gotcha - interesting. 

So, you think that their TRUE preferred option was Danny Green, then?

(12-09-2020, 12:08 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]So, you think that their TRUE preferred option was Danny Green, then?

I think it was similar to this past offseason:

Acquire value contracts for starters or defenders/role players to play around Luka & KP. 


So I do think they would have entertained guys like Kemba/Vuc/Gallo/Tobias (gulp) at the right price and would have loved Green and Bev. I genuinely think Delon was high on their list (he just didn't work out...I personally loved the move at the time).

(12-09-2020, 12:36 PM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]So I do think they would have entertained guys like Kemba/Vuc/Gallo/Tobias (gulp) at the right price and would have loved Green and Bev. I genuinely think Delon was high on their list (he just didn't work out...I personally loved the move at the time).

I buy that. 

I would've been high on Harris, too, until it became clear he was getting the max.

I think Mavs were all in on Kemba and he proved pretty valuable to the Celtics. I do think he would have been a good fit for the Mavs, providing that third star and scoring. Defensively he's not amazing but then that's a similar problem to some of these other scorer types we have considered. The whole Horford thing created a window for Kemba to join the Celtics, otherwise I think Kemba would have been a Mav last year which would have helped propel the Mavs to a higher seed and a ticket past the first round. My real favorite was Brogdon but Mavs weren''t ever interested in him for some reason. Kemba was a good pursuit, better than Vuc and better than Gobert given that you can't play Gobert in the playoffs.

(12-09-2020, 12:40 PM)StepBackJay Wrote: [ -> ]Kemba and he proved pretty valuable to the Celtics.

He was +0.3 for the year with BOS. He was basically a wash for them. There is a reason Ainge floated him in trades.

(12-09-2020, 12:40 PM)StepBackJay Wrote: [ -> ]My real favorite was Brogdon

Yeah, he was my fav above Vuc BY FAR.

(12-09-2020, 12:40 PM)StepBackJay Wrote: [ -> ]you can't play Gobert in the playoffs

That is just hyperbole that I do not think is true, and if Gobert ever gets in a better situation will be proven to be wrong.

(12-09-2020, 12:44 PM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]and if Gobert ever gets in a better situation will be proven to be wrong.

??? Utah has an excellent team for the past few years. They were a bit unlucky in the bubble with Bogi out, so this is the year he gets to show. What better situation do you want him to have?

My issue with you Kamm is you stare at stats and don't watch the games. He was important to that Celtics team. Walker would have been great here especially given that both KP and Luka missed time. The idea with the "3 star" system is that chances are you have 2 out of the 3 available at any given time. He would have done well here.

Is Walker my favorite fit ever? No but I think he would have been good and would have been an asset, much better than Curry even though I like Curry who later turned into J Rich.

(12-09-2020, 12:48 PM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ]What better situation do you want him to have?

Being with Luka/KP. I think you want Gobert to be your third best player, not one of your top two. 

I also just think the defenders around him are trash and that gets exposed in the playoffs. I do think he will be better having Favors back this year (that was their best move IMO). 

P.S. I am NOT in the Donovan Mitchell camp yet, so far he is an empty stats guy to me. Just my take.

(12-09-2020, 12:54 PM)StepBackJay Wrote: [ -> ]My issue with you Kamm is you stare at stats and don't watch the games.

Dude this is so categorically wrong. You have no idea how many games/film I watch.

How can you even say/claim that? Are you living with me and I didn't realize it?

Come on, man. Don't make completely unfounded claims about other people.

(12-09-2020, 12:59 PM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]Dude this is so categorically wrong. You have no idea how many games/film I watch.

How can you even say/claim that? Are you living with me and I didn't realize it?

Come on, man. Don't make completely unfounded claims about other people.

I don't know how you can look at Walker and be like meh he was just +.3 or whatever. I mean he averaged 20 ppg on a team with a lot of offensive options. He was good for them in the playoffs. I don't understand why you can act like he wasn't important.