MavsBoard

If you're paying max money to a big man, he has to be truly special on BOTH ends of the court. Gobert is nothing special on offense and his defensive value is limited in the playoffs when teams go small. Anthony Davis has gotten overrated because he's a Laker playing with Lebron now, yes, but I'd still take him 10 times out of 10 over Gobert at any price. He's leagues above Rudy on offense, even if he can't really create for himself, and his defense is actually more valuable in the playoffs as well.

(12-20-2020, 09:49 PM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]I seriously wish y'all would actually read my position as opposed to make stuff up. I NEVER said this. I was asked about "starting a team" and I would NOT start a team with 36 yr old Lebron. And I think AD is riding on Lebron's coattails and is now vastly overrated. 


Why are y'all SO offended that I have an opinion different than yours that you have to misrepresent MY position to make you feel good about yourself?

Okay why are we talking about starting a team with players in the top 10, most of which who are going to be late 20's, early 30's anyway? Luka is the only obvious outlier there being both young and amazing. No one would start a team over with 28 year old Gobert as their centerpiece over 27 yr old AD. Nobody. Not one GM in the league would do that. You have descended into madness sir, but please keep doubling down because it entertains me much.

(12-21-2020, 09:30 AM)StepBackJay Wrote: [ -> ]Okay why are we talking about starting a team with players in the top 10, most of which who are going to be late 20's, early 30's anyway? Luka is the only obvious outlier there being both young and amazing. No one would start a team over with 28 year old Gobert as their centerpiece over 27 yr old AD. Nobody. Not one GM in the league would do that. You have descended into madness sir, but please keep doubling down because it entertains me much.

First you intentionally misquote Kam. Now you're saying he's descended into madness. I would think after realizing that you misquoted him that your very next post might be sprinkled with a little more humility. 

Kam is right-on when he says he has an opinion and that he has supported it with data. You're just making claims that can't be supported (in the post above) and going ad hominem. 

I don't have a strong opinion about whether Gobert is top 10 or 15 or whatever, but I do know that you have no idea what GM's think about that claim. 

So...Kam, data supported assertion...you, baseless claim followed by personal attack.

Regarding AD, GM's probably like him better than Gobert because he's the better offensive player, but his time spent as the best player of his team (NO) didn't produce better teams than Gobert as the best player in Utah.

(12-21-2020, 09:30 AM)StepBackJay Wrote: [ -> ]Okay why are we talking about starting a team with players in the top 10, most of which who are going to be late 20's, early 30's anyway? Luka is the only obvious outlier there being both young and amazing. No one would start a team over with 28 year old Gobert as their centerpiece over 27 yr old AD. Nobody. Not one GM in the league would do that. You have descended into madness sir, but please keep doubling down because it entertains me much.

I asked him the question. It wasn't specific enough given that each of those players are at different stages in their career, obviously Luka+Giannis are the clear favorites in that due to age, which is my bad. 

A more clear question probably would have been, "you have 1 season to build a team around this player to compete for a championship, out of this list who would you take Gobert over?"

This way you can get away from the " whole long term building mode" mindset. Of course you can still factor age and everything, but I think this question is a better representation of importance when it matters. 

Gobert is a good player that does have a massive impact on both ends. But he isn't worth 40+ mil and yet he's being paid like the league's top stars which is my main point. Gobert at 29 mil is a steal. He's still paid like a top player and his salary is still small enough to build around. 

At an average of 42 mil, Gobert is taking up nearly 40% of your entire team's cap. I don't see how that makes sense.

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(12-21-2020, 10:38 AM)fifteenth Wrote: [ -> ]Regarding AD, GM's probably like him better than Gobert because he's the better offensive player, but his time spent as the best player of his team (NO) didn't produce better teams than Gobert as the best player in Utah.

Well Gobert hasn't really been given a chance to anchor a team like AD has in NO. Is that more because lack of opportunity or because he just simply isn't good enough to be shouldered that responsibility?

Gobert has had the luxury of playing with Gordon Hayward, and then Donovan Mitchell. It isn't his fault his team is ran well, but lets not pretend that the Pelicans were nearly as good as Utah in building a team.

(12-21-2020, 11:11 AM)SleepingHero Wrote: [ -> ]Well Gobert hasn't really been given a chance to anchor a team like AD has in NO. Is that more because lack of opportunity or because he just simply isn't good enough to be shouldered that responsibility?

Gobert has had the luxury of playing with Gordon Hayward, and then Donovan Mitchell. It isn't his fault his team is ran well, but lets not pretend that the Pelicans were nearly as good as Utah in building a team.

Yeah, I agree that Utah has been better at team building. In fact, one great bit of team buiding involved believing in, having a vision for, and coaching up Gobert. As far as my position goes on where Gobert ranks, I don't know, I doin't have a strong leaning. But I'll support Kam's assertion that he's sharing a data based opinion for sure.

(12-21-2020, 11:11 AM)SleepingHero Wrote: [ -> ]

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Gobert has had the luxury of playing with Gordon Hayward, and then Donovan Mitchell. 

Are we sure it isn't the other way around...That Mitchell has had the luxury of playing with Gobert.

(12-21-2020, 11:11 AM)SleepingHero Wrote: [ -> ]A more clear question probably would have been, "you have 1 season to build a team around this player to compete for a championship, out of this list who would you take Gobert over?"

I would absolutely take Lebron over Gobert then. 

But I don't think anything else changes in my answer.

(12-21-2020, 11:32 AM)fifteenth Wrote: [ -> ]Yeah, I agree that Utah has been better at team building.

I would disagree with this actually. 

I think NO had more overall talent around AD. 

I think Hayward is a good player, but I think he was vastly inflated by playing alongside Gobert. I think the same of Donovan. I think Gobert is the tide that lifted those boats to a higher level.

(12-21-2020, 11:32 AM)fifteenth Wrote: [ -> ]But I'll support Kam's assertion that he's sharing a data based opinion for sure.

And that's a fair position. I will say that data is only as valuable as the context it is used in. I remember not too long ago Kamm citing on/off numbers and +/- saying that MKG is a valuable player on offense.

MKG is out of the league now after playing less than 200 minutes for the Mavs over 21 regular season games and 6 playoff games.

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(12-21-2020, 11:36 AM)DanSchwartzman Wrote: [ -> ]Are we sure it isn't the other way around...That Mitchell has had the luxury of playing with Gobert.

That's a good question. One I don't think we'll get a true answer unless Gobert or Mitchell goes elsewhere.

(12-21-2020, 11:36 AM)DanSchwartzman Wrote: [ -> ]Are we sure it isn't the other way around...That Mitchell has had the luxury of playing with Gobert.

This is 100% my take. Donovan is incredibly overrated. Don't get me wrong, he is a good ball player, but I do not think he is special nor a true star. 

Time will tell if I am right or not, but I expect the rest of his NBA career to be rather mediocre and for his contract to look quite bad/meh in a couple years.

(12-21-2020, 11:37 AM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]I would absolutely take Lebron over Gobert then. 

But I don't think anything else changes in my answer.

Ok if that's what you think, that's cool. For me I wouldn't choose Gobert over anybody from that list. Though, I would like him on my team to play 2nd fiddle, unfortunately if I were to get Steph and Gobert that's nearly 80 mil tied up into 2 players now.

(12-21-2020, 11:39 AM)SleepingHero Wrote: [ -> ]I remember not too long ago Kamm citing on/off numbers and +/- saying that MKG is a valuable player on offense.

I NEVER said this.

This was my take:

"There is enough in some small sample sizes to point to the possibility that MKG might be able to figure out a corner three ball. And there is some evidence that MKG has not always been a hindrance to his team's offense from an impact standpoint."

I NEVER said he would be a "valuable offensive" player, I was just suggesting he might be able to break even (meaning his defensive impact would outweigh any negative offensive impact) in DAL in a better situation. It didn't work out. I never said it would. Just said it could. 

My views are filled with nuance, I wish people would read what I am saying a little more closely.

(12-21-2020, 11:39 AM)SleepingHero Wrote: [ -> ]And that's a fair position. I will say that data is only as valuable as the context it is used in. I remember not too long ago Kamm citing on/off numbers and +/- saying that MKG is a valuable player on offense.

MKG is out of the league now after playing less than 200 minutes for the Mavs over 21 regular season games and 6 playoff games.

I'm about to engage in discussion about what I think Kam said, which is a dagerous proposition. But I think that Kam was expressing hope that MKG could be useful based on some on/off stuff. That's not nearly as strong a claim as "MKG is a valuable player on offense". His hope wasn't supported by MKG's performance with the Mavs, of course, but, if my memory is correct, then no need to overstate things.

(12-21-2020, 11:36 AM)DanSchwartzman Wrote: [ -> ]Are we sure it isn't the other way around...That Mitchell has had the luxury of playing with Gobert.

It’s a good question and a good point. There’s no doubt that Gobert is a difference maker, especially in a synergy fit. I’ll also say that finding a synergy fit isn’t all that difficult. 

I think the disconnect some are stuck on is that Gobert is one of the few (maybe the only) max level players who has no chance of getting you a 1-on-1 bucket when you throw him the ball. While that’s not a valid dismissal of the many things he gives you, maxing him out certainly does present a unique team-building problem for anyone trying to build around him in a salary cap system. 

Back to the question above, I have no trouble going along with the idea that Gobert makes Mitchell more relevant than he might otherwise be, but I still feel like Luka or Lebron (just examples) would do more for Gobert than Gobert does for Mitchell. It’s just my opinion, though. 

If the Mavs’ two best players were Luka and, say, Paul George (not KP), I’d be all about Gobert, and I wouldn’t care what he cost, as long as it could be done. But STARTING your roster with a MAXED Gobert is, to me, problematic.

(12-21-2020, 11:45 AM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]I NEVER said this.

This was my take:

"There is enough in some small sample sizes to point to the possibility that MKG might be able to figure out a corner three ball. And there is some evidence that MKG has not always been a hindrance to his team's offense from an impact standpoint."

I NEVER said he would be a "valuable offensive" player, I was just suggesting he might be able to break even (meaning his defensive impact would outweigh any negative offensive impact) in DAL in a better situation. It didn't work out. I never said it would. Just said it could. 

My views are filled with nuance, I wish people would read what I am saying a little more closely.

I think it's a very definite maybe that you could, possibly, might be right, perhaps.

(12-21-2020, 10:34 AM)fifteenth Wrote: [ -> ]First you intentionally misquote Kam. Now you're saying he's descended into madness. I would think after realizing that you misquoted him that your very next post might be sprinkled with a little more humility. 

Kam is right-on when he says he has an opinion and that he has supported it with data. You're just making claims that can't be supported (in the post above) and going ad hominem. 

I don't have a strong opinion about whether Gobert is top 10 or 15 or whatever, but I do know that you have no idea what GM's think about that claim. 

So...Kam, data supported assertion...you, baseless claim followed by personal attack.

Fifteenth we are all friends here but this argument that Gobert is a top 10 player is just crazy. Nobody can be this limited a player and be top 10. He is not a guy that can get you a bucket on his own and that to me is a minimum requirement to be top 10. Even on defense he isn't perfect, Jokic carved him up in the playoffs. He doesn't have versatility that AD or LeBron have on defense. It's great that he is an analytics darling but it's not realistic to say he is a top 10 player.

(12-21-2020, 11:58 AM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]I think the disconnect some are stuck on is that Gobert is one of the few (maybe the only) max level players who has no chance of getting you a 1-on-1 bucket when you throw him the ball. While that’s not a valid dismissal of the many things he gives you, maxing him out certainly does present a unique team-building problem for anyone trying to build around him in a salary cap system. 

I respect this position very much.

Gobert needs a half way decent pick and roll partner to have his elite offensive impact. But if he doesn't have that he loses his effectiveness. I get the concern. I don't think having an opinion that Gobert is not worth $40M is invalid. The same way I don't think my opinion that he is worth that is invalid. 

We can both have valid opinions and still not agree.

(12-21-2020, 12:22 PM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]We can both have valid opinions and still not agree.

True that!



Agree to disagree on this one Kamm.

(12-21-2020, 10:34 AM)fifteenth Wrote: [ -> ]So...Kam, data supported assertion...you, baseless claim followed by personal attack.

You talk ab baseless claims and yet we have a lot of this "AD is overrated," "Tatum" is overrated claims from Kamm in this thread. WTF? AD and LeBron just won a championship fairly comfortably despite a fairly mediocre supporting cast. AD could have been the finals MVP. Saying he's overrated is not a data-supported claim either, it's an opinion.