MavsBoard

(12-20-2020, 10:01 AM)FunkBoreland Wrote: [ -> ]https://twitter.com/espn_macmahon/status...44546?s=19

(12-20-2020, 05:51 PM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]Gobert has been a much better and much more impactful player than KP and it is not even close. Gobert got the contract he deserves as a top 10 player in the NBA.

KP at 34 mil vs Gobert at 42 mil is not even close. 

I'm not even getting into who's a more impactful player. Gobert is limited. The skills that makes Gobert great (and I do mean great), are all things a good team needs to be good, but great paint protection, amazing screen setting, and a fantastic lob threat isn't going to be the main engine for a championship team. Thus this is a severe overpay. Gobert is now being paid in the same tier as Steph Curry, Lebron, Giannis, Harden, etc. He is not that. He will never be that. You're to not going to win a championship with Gobert being your 1st option, and it's suspect that you can win a ring with him being your 2nd best player. 

To pay 40+ mil for a guy like that is idiotic. I understand why the Jazz did it, but we shouldn't pretend that the Jazz are making out good here. This caps their team for the next 5 years.

And by the way, I'm not even arguing that KP is a better player or a more impactful player. But the fact that it can be debated as to who IS the better player and 1 is being paid on average 10 mil less than the other every year is what I'm trying to say. From a value proposition, KP is who you'd rather want on your team. He's a more skilled offensive player than Gobert, his paint protection is in the upper echelon, and he won't cost you close to 50 mil in his final year of his deal. 

KP's biggest issue is availability. But any player can get injured. God forbid Gobert get injured, because the Jazz would be locked in a French prison for 5 years that they can't escape.

(12-20-2020, 05:51 PM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]Gobert got the contract he deserves as a top 10 player in the NBA

Also top 10? 

Lebron, AD, Giannis, Luka, Harden, Kawhi, Curry, Jokic, Lillard, Tatum, Embiid, are all CLEARLY better than Gobert and there is no argument against it.

Then you have guys that there is an argument but not much with, Durant, Butler, Beal, Mitchell, Jamal Murray. 

Then you have another tier that there is a debate: Westbrook, Kyrie, CP3, Booker, Kristaps, Simmons, KAT, Trae, Siakam, Paul George, and Bam.

And I can go on. I have him at about 17th best player in the league. I didn't even throw in Kemba, Khris Middleton, Jrue, Zion, Ja Morant, or Jaylen Brown.

(12-20-2020, 03:40 PM)jesusshuttlesworth82 Wrote: [ -> ]Turner isn't a roll guy.  

I dont dislike the player but he does what Maxi does and the Mavs seem hesitant to put Maxi in the starting lineup.

If he's like Maxi sign me up.

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(12-20-2020, 04:42 PM)Tyler Wrote: [ -> ]Wow -- good for Rudy. For all the talk about how the center position isn't what it used to be, to earn $40mm a year shows just how unique he is.

They will regret it

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(12-20-2020, 05:51 PM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]Gobert has been a much better and much more impactful player than KP and it is not even close. Gobert got the contract he deserves as a top 10 player in the NBA.

This is the most ridiculous position Kamm has taken in recent memory.

(12-20-2020, 06:58 PM)SleepingHero Wrote: [ -> ]Lebron, AD, Giannis, Luka, Harden, Kawhi, Curry, Jokic, Lillard, Tatum, Embiid, are all CLEARLY better than Gobert and there is no argument against it.

Actually ALL the advanced statistics and analytics say you are DEAD wrong and that there IS an incredibly strong argument against it.

So go ahead and be cocky about it, but according to the metrics Gobert is a consensus top 7 player. Now metrics aren't the end all be all, but when you are looking at like 5 different advanced metrics like RPM, RAPTOR, etc., it is a convincing case.

(12-20-2020, 07:59 PM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]Now metrics aren't the end all be all

Its this statement why Gobert is not a top 7 player, let alone top 15.

If you're starting a team, out of this list, who do you take Gobert over: Lebron, AD, Giannis, Luka, Harden, Kawhi, Curry, Jokic, Lillard, Tatum, Embiid?

A couple quotes:

Quote:Gobert is a top 15 impact player as measured by PIPM, RAPTOR, RAPTOR WAR, Win Shares, RPM, VORP and Total Points Added. Only six other players in the entire league were unamimously top-15 in all of those metrics, and those six guys were all serious MVP candidates: Giannis Antetokounmpo, LeBron James, James Harden, Kawhi Leonard, Nikola Jokic and Luka Doncic.

Quote:It’s a running joke on NBA nerd Twitter that the way to differentiate between a casual fan and someone who understands the nuanced nature of winning basketball is to ask what they think of Gobert. Someone whose NBA diet mostly consists of SportsCenter highlights and TNT games will largely be oblivious to the enormous impact Gobert has on winning, and the myriad ways he defines the terms of engagement at both ends of the floor. He might be the most schemed-for player in the NBA, because opposing coaches have to prepare their teams not only for his stifling presence at one end of the court, but also for his game-changing gravity as one of the league’s very best roll men.

Again, I am not saying YOU have to think he is top 7, top 10, top 15 (because I am not an opinion nazi) but to say there is "no argument" that he is top 10 is frankly to be ignorant of the data.

(12-20-2020, 08:01 PM)SleepingHero Wrote: [ -> ]If you're starting a team, out of this list, who do you take Gobert over: Lebron, AD, Giannis, Luka, Harden, Kawhi, Curry, Jokic, Lillard, Tatum, Embiid?

Lebron is too old....OUT.

Harden is a head case....OUT.

Lillard is NOT impactful to even close to the same level....OUT.

Tatum is massively overrated....OUT.

Give me Gobert all day everyday over Embiid....OUT.

Its close but I would take Gobert over AD....OUT.


So yeah, Luka, Giannis, Kawhi, Curry, and Jokic are the only ones I would honestly take (again that is because Lebron is too old and Harden is not someone I would want anywhere near my team).

If your metrics tell you Rudy Gobert is a better player than Lebron James, reconsider the value you place in metrics.

I would rather have Gobert than KP simply because of availability.  Can't make an impact in a suit.

(12-20-2020, 08:12 PM)Branduil Wrote: [ -> ]If your metrics tell you Rudy Gobert is a better player than Lebron James, reconsider the value you place in metrics.

They don't say that. And no one did. So you are arguing with yourself or the air.

(12-20-2020, 08:02 PM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]A couple quotes:

Both of the quotes you're referencing comes from a Jazz beat writer and from a single piece for a Jazz basketball website. Not saying that it discounts what he's saying, but the biases need to be taken into account for. Secondly, the actual proposition of what those quotes are saying are inherently biased and flawed. "You can measure how much someone knows about basketball just by how they view Gobert" It's intellectual hogwash and reeks of a holier-than-thou attitude. 

Once again, I'm not arguing AGAINST Gobert as a player. He is a FANTASTIC player and I was on the Gobert train to Dallas. I recognize his value. But its foolish to think the skills that make him great are valued the same as players like Giannis, Curry, Lebron and the games other stars. He is the ultimate version of 2011 Tyson Chandler. The guy that can be the perfect finishing piece, but on his own his value is greatly diminished. 

Advanced metrics have their place but each equation are subject to their own biases. They shouldn't be counted on anymore than looking at raw stats and the eye-test to build a picture of a player. 

(12-20-2020, 08:05 PM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]Lebron is too old....OUT.

Harden is a head case....OUT.

Lillard is NOT impactful to even close to the same level....OUT.

Tatum is massively overrated....OUT.

Give me Gobert all day everyday over Embiid....OUT.

Its close but I would take Gobert over AD....OUT.

Lebron just won a championship. The Lakers are the clear cut favorite to repeat. Lebron just came off a decade run of 8 final runs in 10 years. So it's puzzling why you discount all of those stats and just default to Lebron's age to discount him. 

Harden was apart of the only team to give what is probably the best collection of talent ever assembled their biggest obstacle. Harden+Cp3+Capela when played in 2017-18 had a win percentage of 91%, essentially a 74 win pace. Harden also has the longest playoff streak in the west, making the playoffs for 8 straight years. All this while, Harden has put up scoring stats that has only been matched by Jordan and Wilt. I don't like how he plays, but again to write off Harden as a headcase while ignoring all of this is ridiculous.

Lillard has had more playoff success than Gobert has had. 7 straight years of playoff appearances. He has been the teams primary offensive engine and in the last 5 years has averaged 27/5/7 on 44/37.5/90. That is about as elite and impactful as they come. 

Why is Tatum massively overrated? The Celtics in the last 3 years has made the conference finals twice and made it out of the first round the other time. Tatum just broke out leading his team 26/10/5. He's only 22. Why is he overrated but Luka isn't? 

Anthony Davis just won a ring and probably should've been the Finals MVP. I don't see how it's even a debate between them given AD's defensive ability and his offensive versatility. Davis is younger than Gobert as well. The fact you would take Gobert over AD is just.....

For the sake of brevity, Embiid is the shakiest out of this group compared to Gobert due to health, but given that Embiid is younger and has just come off a tumultuous season averaging 23/12 and that you'd take Gobert over AD means there isn't anything I can say that can convince you Embiid is better.

This thread has gone completely insane. Gobert is now better than Anthony Davis and LeBron.

(12-20-2020, 08:45 PM)StepBackJay Wrote: [ -> ]Gobert is now better than Anthony Davis and LeBron.

I seriously wish y'all would actually read my position as opposed to make stuff up. I NEVER said this. I was asked about "starting a team" and I would NOT start a team with 36 yr old Lebron. And I think AD is riding on Lebron's coattails and is now vastly overrated. 


Why are y'all SO offended that I have an opinion different than yours that you have to misrepresent MY position to make you feel good about yourself?

36-year-old Lebron has infinitely more chance of leading your team to a title as your best player than Rudy Gobert. You will literally never win a title if Rudy Gobert is your best player, I'm quite comfortable taking that position.

(12-20-2020, 09:49 PM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]Why are y'all SO offended that I have an opinion different than yours that you have to misrepresent MY position to make you feel good about yourself?

We're not offended that you have a different opinion. We aren't attacking you as a person. You're making a claim that is wild by any basic basketball standard. We're attacking your claim. I'm sorry if you felt that I was attacking the man behind the keyboard and not the words on the screen. Truly, I mean that. We're all just basketball fans that are passionate. 

With that said, you are more than entitled to your opinion. But just because you have that opinion doesn't mean it isn't open to scrutiny. When you come with a flaming hot take that Rudy Gobert isn't just a top 15 player, but a top 7 player, it's going to get meme'd. 

There is a reason why 36 year old Lebron's team is still considered favorites to win the title by a wide margin. Hell, 36 year old Lebron just won it all 2 months ago. (Sure there are valid criticisms about the mickey mouse ring but he still won).

I don't know why you want to choose to die on this hill. I liked Rudy Gobert to Dallas, but I'm at least trying to be realistic in what Rudy Gobert actually is. He isn't worth 40+mil. The only reason why he got it is because the Jazz didn't have any other realistic moves that allowed them to get better as a team without paying Gobert that money. Special circumstances and all.

The fact that he is some secret mega superstar worth 42+ million that is being slept on and that only casual fans don't recognize his greatness I feel is malarkey. Rudy isn't leading any team to a title, but that doesn't mean he wouldn't have a big impact on a title contending team. His impact is known. And I see what he brings. And that is precisely why I know for fact he isn't worth this severe overpay that has the potential to blow up in the Jazz faces hard. 80% of this contract is what I feel like Rudy is worth. 160 over 5 would've been a realistic and in fact solid get for the Jazz. It's the extra 45 mil over 5 years (9 mil a year=1 seth curry) that spoils it.

(12-20-2020, 11:17 PM)SleepingHero Wrote: [ -> ]There is a reason why 36 year old Lebron's team is still considered favorites to win the title by a wide margin.

Because he's either a robot or an alien?

(12-20-2020, 11:17 PM)SleepingHero Wrote: [ -> ]I don't know why you want to choose to die on this hill.

"Die on this hill"? 

What are you even talking about?? I have an INFORMED opinion based on YEARS of statistical data and basketball watching to back it up. That's all it is, an opinion. There is no hill. There is no dying. 

Gobert is a top 10 player in today's NBA. That's my take and opinion which is again backed up by loads of data. And it is not even remotely a "wild" take. You don't have to like it and you don't have to agree. But you aren't going to shame me into changing my informed opinion.

I would agree with Kamm if we are talking about the regular season only. Gobert was one of the 10 best players in the last few regular seasons. Problem is that he  probably isn´t a top 50 player in the playoffs. Worse boxscore numbers, worse +/-, getting outplayed by the opposing superstar in basically every single series he ever played.
If Gobert is getting payed like one of the best players in the league he should be able to outplay Clint Capela and at least somewhat limit Jokic but that´s not the case.

(12-21-2020, 12:17 AM)dirkfansince1998 Wrote: [ -> ]Problem is that he  probably isn´t a top 50 player in the playoffs.

No question his first three playoff appearances he massively underperformed on +/-. He still averaged 20 PER for those three runs, but I don't think he was nearly as impactful as he was in the regular season. But that is just a 25 game sample size....REALLY small from a statistical standpoint AND I think they have just been outmatched when facing the Rockets.

But this year his +/- totally flipped and he was a big positive for the team and put up 20 PER again. I thought he was much better in the 7 games this year and closer to his regular season self.

Playoff reputations are crazy....people read into small sample sizes and guys get labeled very quickly one way or the other. It will be interested to see if Gobert can flip the script. We'll see.

But to your point, I definitely agree he hasn't been a top 10 player in the playoffs.