(12-16-2020, 11:29 AM)StepBackJay Wrote: [ -> ]I don't think Rick wants to play KP as the FT 4. They have been adamant since he got here that they want KP playing mostly the 5. Not sure why you are fighting this so hard.
I am only resisting misinformation and a refusal to recognize nuance in all this.
RC wants to WIN. That's IT, PERIOD.
He will play the players he has on his roster in the way he thinks will help the team win. With this current roster, I agree RC seems to want to play KP at both 4 and 5 (and mostly 5 post-DP injury). But if RC had different talent then his thinking would evolve with that so as to give the team the best chance to win.
I don't understand why people have to be so black/white and categorically fixed in their thinking about team building. There is nothing about RC's rotations or way of coaching that shows that he has fixed ideas and notions of "position" that he will never deviate from. In fact he is constantly preaching the need for his players to know multiple positions within his offense and defense. RC sees KP as a basketball player, not as a 4 or 5.
Look, I have no idea if Donnie or RC or anyone else in the Mavs organization really likes the idea of Gobert on the team. But I know...
1) They LOVE "stars" and Gobert is 100% a star.
2) They have been connected to Gobert by rival GMs about a month and a half ago.
3) They have shown flexibility of style to accommodate their personnel over the years.
And then for me personally, I love the idea because I LOVE Gobert's talent (and have since before he was drafted as anyone can attest). But I do have some questions about his off court personality. And if the Mavs go another direction I won't lose any sleep. But I do think smart fans should be able to see that a real case can be made for Gobert, regardless of whether it is their personal preference or not.
He's a good player, @"Kammrath". Nobody is denying that.
The argument over whether KP is a 4 or 5 doesn't really interest me, but the idea that he's a bigger, slower player does. KP and Gobert are BOTH fast for guys who are over 7' tall, but not as fast as MOST 6'9" guys.
I'm not opposed to having the roster flexibility to play two extremely long players at once, and I agree with you that Gobert and KP's games don't overlap offensively in a prohibitive way. Defensively, however, I just don't view them as a fit that can work during the last five minutes of an important game against a playoff team. To use the Lakers for an example, their two max players are going to be the two biggest guys on the court for them during that stretch. Athletically, and skills wise, that duo outmatches KP/Gobert to an INSANE degree. That would be a BLOODBATH, imo. You'd have no choice at that point but to bench one of them, probably Gobert (you'd want KP's shooting on the court, I'm guessing).
At that point, you've used 30-35% of your cap on a player who you can't play during the moment that defines your season. And my belief is that MOST good teams can attack you in a similar way, forcing you not to play your best five players. I just can't endorse that. I think it's team-building and locker room suicide.
I realize you disagree with the above. I just want to make sure this side of the argument stays clear. I don't think ANYONE is claiming Gobert isn't a good player.
(12-16-2020, 12:11 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]I don't think ANYONE is claiming Gobert isn't a good player.
What I think people aren't acknowledging is that Gobert is one of the best 15 players in the WHOLE NBA (arguably top 8).
If Gobert was just "good" I would not be pushing this idea at all, even remotely. But he is not just good, he is not only great, he is ELITE, cream of the crop, bringing a huge positive impact on both sides of the ball.
(12-16-2020, 12:16 PM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]What I think people aren't acknowledging is that Gobert is one of the best 15 players in the WHOLE NBA (arguably top 8).
If Gobert was just "good" I would not be pushing this idea at all, even remotely. But he is not just good, he is not only great, he is ELITE, cream of the crop, bringing a huge positive impact on both sides of the ball.
Ok, great. So basically, you're saying he's better than KP. I trust you enough in terms of impact analysis to know it's at least a conversation worth having. Let's say I concede that point.
Imagine a repost of everything I wrote above, only it's KP who has to sit, not Gobert. Same problem, imo.
(12-16-2020, 12:22 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]Imagine a repost of everything I wrote above, only it's KP who has to sit, not Gobert. Same problem, imo.
Yeah, if you believe that two top 15 guys (Luka+Gobert) and a top 30 guy (KP when healthy) couldn't all coexist at the end of the game, then yeah we just disagree.
I will personally put all that talent on the floor and give them time to figure out (probably using zone defense to close games) a way to win. I trust that talent+time-to-gel will eventually lead to winning. I wouldn't bench a top 15 or top 30 guy and replace him with a top 150-200 player just because of perceived fit issues.
(12-16-2020, 12:47 PM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]I wouldn't bench a top 15 or top 30 guy and replace him with a top 150-200 player just because of perceived fit issues.
Drastic misstatement of my point.
If I'm right (which you can question, that's fine) it wouldn't be a matter of choice.
Jokic is up there on the list, too. Are you suggesting Gobert, KP and Jokic could all play together during the last five minutes against a good team? Where do you, personally, draw the line on this?
(12-16-2020, 12:16 PM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]What I think people aren't acknowledging is that Gobert is one of the best 15 players in the WHOLE NBA (arguably top 8).
If Gobert was just "good" I would not be pushing this idea at all, even remotely. But he is not just good, he is not only great, he is ELITE, cream of the crop, bringing a huge positive impact on both sides of the ball.
I would not put Gobert as a top 15 player. He's a very good player but he doesn't have a jump-shot. I think Jokic is clearly the best center. KP would be very high if we grade him as a center and not a PF. Embiid is very good, top 5 center. Bam's versatility puts him pretty high. KAT's offensive skill puts him pretty high. I don't know that I would put any center as a top 15 player though outside of Jokic.
(12-16-2020, 01:28 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]Are you suggesting Gobert, KP and Jokic could all play together during the last five minutes against a good team? Where do you, personally, draw the line on this?
I won't ever say something CAN'T be done without trying it. Three ELITE bigs like that would be unprecedented but could potentially work (or maybe not). It would be REALLY interesting to see how something like that might force other teams to adjust....
But playing two bigs is a tried and true thing that has worked many different times throughout NBA history. So putting two elite bigs next to each other is not only NOT crazy it could be REALLY smart (especially when one of them, KP, is the BEST floor spacing big in the game). No bigs has also been tried and worked to a certain extent. One big has tried and is the current FAD.
(12-16-2020, 01:40 PM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]But playing two bigs is a tried and true thing that has worked many different times throughout NBA history. So putting two elite bigs next to each other is not only NOT crazy it could be REALLY smart (especially when one of them, KP, is the BEST floor spacing big in the game). No bigs has also been tried and worked to a certain extent. One big has tried and is the current FAD.
I'll concede all of this. I agree with every word.
Your use of "fad" is somewhat accurate, and I get where you're coming from with that. I just get the feeling you believe it's arbitrarily popular right now, and not a reaction to anything else going on. I don't see it that way. I see it as a logical step to counter the drastically different spacing teams throw out there successfully nowadays. I think playing two bigs kind of plays right into their hands.
Is there a big out there who makes this approach NOT help a team trying to space you out? Yes, of course, I agree. For my speculation, that's Giannis. 7', long, and really fast and athletic. I, personally, don't put Gobert in that category. You do, and that's fine. What I'm struggling with is the idea that just because Gobert is really good (let's say top 8, like you think) then it MUST make sense that he'd work with KP.
I just think fit and synergy are real things caused by real on-court problem solving, not caused by "perceptions."
(12-16-2020, 01:48 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]What I'm struggling with is the idea that just because Gobert is really good (let's say top 8, like you think) then it MUST make sense that he'd work with KP.
I just think fit and synergy are real things caused by real on-court problem solving, not caused by "perceptions."
1) I don't think it MUST work....but I think it is worth trying when you have that level of talent. No fit is guaranteed (see Delon Wright). There is a real possibility KP + Gobert wouldn't be good.
2) I think fit and synergy are HUGE (hence I have nervousness about Gobert's possible off court fit in particular). I just think there are false perceptions a) about Gobert and how good he is and b) about the theoretical fit of Gobert/KP defensively that don't accurately reflect what we know.
(12-16-2020, 01:57 PM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]1) I don't think it MUST work....but I think it is worth trying when you have that level of talent. No fit is guaranteed (see Delon Wright). There is a real possibility KP + Gobert wouldn't be good.
Very reasonable, and very understandable, thanks.
Ya, I've seen this whole argument as a real good possibility of greatness that we're looking for for this team and Luka. It's not a "we must" type thing that many are making it out to be.
(12-16-2020, 02:38 PM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]Ya, I've seen this whole argument as a real good possibility of greatness that we're looking for for this team and Luka. It's not a "we must" type thing that many are making it out to be.
I'm not sure I follow this thought, sorry.
(12-16-2020, 11:49 AM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]I am only resisting misinformation and a refusal to recognize nuance in all this.
RC wants to WIN. That's IT, PERIOD.
He will play the players he has on his roster in the way he thinks will help the team win. With this current roster, I agree RC seems to want to play KP at both 4 and 5 (and mostly 5 post-DP injury). But if RC had different talent then his thinking would evolve with that so as to give the team the best chance to win.
I don't understand why people have to be so black/white and categorically fixed in their thinking about team building. There is nothing about RC's rotations or way of coaching that shows that he has fixed ideas and notions of "position" that he will never deviate from. In fact he is constantly preaching the need for his players to know multiple positions within his offense and defense. RC sees KP as a basketball player, not as a 4 or 5.
Look, I have no idea if Donnie or RC or anyone else in the Mavs organization really likes the idea of Gobert on the team. But I know...
1) They LOVE "stars" and Gobert is 100% a star.
2) They have been connected to Gobert by rival GMs about a month and a half ago.
3) They have shown flexibility of style to accommodate their personnel over the years.
And then for me personally, I love the idea because I LOVE Gobert's talent (and have since before he was drafted as anyone can attest). But I do have some questions about his off court personality. And if the Mavs go another direction I won't lose any sleep. But I do think smart fans should be able to see that a real case can be made for Gobert, regardless of whether it is their personal preference or not.
I don't believe this line of thinking that Rick will just figure it out. He absolutely has ideas on what he wants to do. How many non-shooters do we have on this team? Rick is all about spacing and shooting these days. Does it mean they won't get an occasional non-shooter? Maybe but he definitely has a clear idea what he wants to do.
I am fairly confident that Rick doesn't want to figure out how to make Gobert & KP fit together on the court just bc Gobert is talented. I think he would like to keep KP the 5 and for whatever reason he likes Powell as the starting 4 or like a co-starter with Maxi who will likely close a lot of games.
You can argue ab it all day long and I admire your commitment to this idea but I think you are swimming upstream here in terms of where the NBA is headed (and certainly Rick). I don't see Rick all of a sudden deciding to zig while everyone else is zagging and go with a 2-center-type front court.
Kamm to your point ab rival GM's are you talking ab Lowe's article?
https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/3022...-offseason
He mentioned that but then immediately shot it down in the next paragraph. I wouldn't say there's been a groundswell of press linking Gobert to the Mavs just yet.
(12-16-2020, 03:08 PM)StepBackJay Wrote: [ -> ]I am fairly confident that Rick doesn't want to figure out how to make Gobert & KP fit together on the court just bc Gobert is talented
Are you really that confident that if RC was given this choice to have on his team...
1) Dwight Powell
OR
2) Rudy Gobert
...he would choose Dwight?
He LOVES Dwight, but I would be stunned and in complete shock if he were to pass on such a talent upgrade to stick with Dwight.
P.S. I know it is more complicated than just DP for Gobert, but that is one way to look at the issue as a hypothetical.
(12-16-2020, 12:16 PM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]What I think people aren't acknowledging is that Gobert is one of the best 15 players in the WHOLE NBA (arguably top 8).
Wow, top 8? So which of Luka, Harden, Curry, Durant, LeBron, Davis, Embiid, Giannis, Kawhi, Lillard, Jokic, Butler (thats 12) are worse than him? Before going into next tier of Pauls, Irvings, Murrays, Tatums,... of the world. The Athletic has him in the 16th spot in their top players list. Looks like even his own team sees Mitchel as more important building block of the team.
(12-16-2020, 03:15 PM)StepBackJay Wrote: [ -> ]He mentioned that but then immediately shot it down in the next paragraph.
Zach Lowe did not "shoot it down" he just said he PERSONALLY didn't see the fit. But the facts are that some rival GMs think the Mavs would poursue Gobert....and that is some smoke behind a possible fire. That's all I am saying.
(12-16-2020, 03:16 PM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]Are you really that confident that if RC was given this choice to have on his team...
1) Dwight Powell
OR
2) Rudy Gobert
...he would choose Dwight?
He LOVES Dwight, but I would be stunned and in complete shock if he were to pass on such a talent upgrade to stick with Dwight.
P.S. I know it is more complicated than just DP for Gobert, but that is one way to look at the issue as a hypothetical.
So the big thing here Kamm is that Dwight is under contract, Gobert on the other hand would be an additional 20+ mil a year, likely a 100+ mil total contract. I think Rick likes the fit of Powell just fine to my amazement honestly.
As I have said if Mavs are looking hard for a big upgrade its probably going to be a guard/wing that is a playmaker to replace what THJ currently brings. I think in terms of frontcourt they like smaller type moves (Crowder/Gasol-types) for depth.
(12-16-2020, 03:16 PM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ]Wow, top 8? So which of Luka, Harden, Curry, Durant, LeBron, Davis, Embiid, Giannis, Kawhi, Lillard, Jokic, Butler (thats 12) are worse than him? Before going into next tier of Pauls, Irvings, Murrays, Tatums,... of the world. The Athletic has him in the 16th spot in their top players list. Looks like even his own team sees Mitchel as more important building block of the team.
If specifically looking at impact on winning I personally (based on impact stats) think Giannis, LeBron, Kawhi, Jokic, and Luka are the clear top 5 (not in that order). I think Harden, Curry, and Gobert are probably the next three to round out the top 8.
But
statistically (taking out the romance of glossy fan impressions and opinions) Gobert is unquestionably at least top 15.
If I were building a team, as unglamorous as it would be, I would take Gobert over Davis, Durant, Embiid, Lillard, Butler, Tatum, Paul, Irving, Murray, etc., and most certainly over Mitchell (I think Donovan is VASTLY overrated).