What do you think Kamm about the last 6 championships kicked off by the Warriors where you have basically every team playing either no true center in crunch time (Draymond, Davis) or using a center by committee approach? Looking through this list where is the elite, high-paid center? We have like underrated Ibaka, Gasol committees and Tristan Thompson who is like a hybrid 4/5 on the list. Warriors had mostly garbage centers during their run. I don't think that's how you win championships honestly. I don't expect the Jazz or 76ers to win a championship any time soon. Jokic has the best chance but I have some concerns that he will be enough even paired with Murray to get over the top. And Jokic is more of the unicorn variety like KP.
I am going to say this, I am highly interested in Gobert and want him here.
But unlike Giannis, there is a price I am not willing to go for, and it is our backcourt depth.
When we discussed Giannis idea , there were people discussing how we keep JRich if we get Giannis and this was laughable to me to some extent . Because if we got Giannis I don't give a damn whether JRich stays or leave. The talent in this team is just enough to win with any back court partner to Luka, never mind it will attract ring chasers who could replace him.
This isn't the case with Gobert, if we have him then I still care about the depth of of our back court. I want one of THJ or JRich staying or I am out.
I can take a trio of Maxi/Gobert/KP taking almost all minutes available for PF/C spot (Powell is honestly expendable if Gobert comes)
-DFS will be a lock for starting SF and I am fine with it. (assuming no trade this season)
Luka is our starting PG
JRich/THJ at SG (assuming Green doesn't end the season on a very high note, making the other 2 expandable)
In other words, if it is a sort of a trade of Powell/Johnson/THJ for Gobert, then I am ok with it.
(12-16-2020, 03:50 PM)StepBackJay Wrote: [ -> ]What do you think Kamm about the last 6 championships kicked off by the Warriors
I think those championships were the result of more talented teams winning, NOT a result of them not having elite centers. I think there is a correlation in the last six championships, but I think there is no causation connected to the center position.
I think it is a miracle that UTA has been as good as it has been on the sole back of Gobert. I really think the overall talent around Gobert has been really bad. That's my read.
(12-16-2020, 03:57 PM)khaled1987 Wrote: [ -> ]I am going to say this, I am highly interested in Gobert and want him here.
But unlike Giannis, there is a price I am not willing to go for, and it is our backcourt depth.
Yeah I would want to keep JRich if at ALL possible if adding Gobert.
I personally want Luka/JRich/???/KP/Gobert as the backbone of the team and then fill in as needed around them with role players.
(12-16-2020, 04:01 PM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]Yeah I would want to keep JRich if at ALL possible if adding Gobert.
I personally want Luka/JRich/???/KP/Gobert as the backbone of the team and then fill in as needed around them with role players.
Totally agree. Jrich looks like a keeper, but Gobert is very talented and would get a ton of easy dunks on this team.
(12-16-2020, 03:58 PM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]I think those championships were the result of more talented teams winning, NOT a result of them not having elite centers. I think there is a correlation in the last six championships, but I think there is no causation connected to the center position.
I think it is a miracle that UTA has been as good as it has been on the sole back of Gobert. I really think the overall talent around Gobert has been really bad. That's my read.
How about the fact that none of these teams deciding to build around a center? I disagree strongly bc a non-shooting center is just not a guy you build around. Luka is the type of guy you build around. Obviously we can have both but I am of the mind you need more playmaking guard/players than defensive centers. Those are great but then you don't need to spend 100 million to get a good one.
Saying UTA hasn't had good talent is an amazing statement by you. Bog was hurt last year otherwise I think they would have made more noise in the playoffs. Mitchell is great, Bog is great. They have the luxury of having Conley around but not really relying on him much. Joe Ingles has been there several years. Favors is a really nice player. Gobert played with Gordon Hayward in his prime so I am not sure how you can say the talent has been really bad. I would say the opposite. They have had a really solid team but they are the classic good regular season-type team that no one really respects as a contender.
(12-16-2020, 12:22 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]Ok, great. So basically, you're saying he's better than KP. I trust you enough in terms of impact analysis to know it's at least a conversation worth having. Let's say I concede that point.
Imagine a repost of everything I wrote above, only it's KP who has to sit, not Gobert. Same problem, imo.
A trade for Gobert only makes sense to me if it's paired with a trade of KP for Bradley Beal(or some other similar superstar wing)
(12-16-2020, 05:35 PM)Branduil Wrote: [ -> ]A trade for Gobert only makes sense to me if it's paired with a trade of KP for Bradley Beal(or some other similar superstar wing)
Ya at that point I am pretty interested. I think the list of superstar wings that are available for trade is pretty low but Beal is one of them. If you could get Beal for KP I would probably do it even though I love KP, primarily bc of the injury concerns with KP. A Beal/Luka pairing would be deadly and then you figure out center. Even just rolling out a Luka/Beal/J Rich/Powell/Maxi lineup is pretty salty.
(12-16-2020, 05:35 PM)Branduil Wrote: [ -> ]A trade for Gobert only makes sense to me if it's paired with a trade of KP for Bradley Beal(or some other similar superstar wing)
Basically what I've said. Gobert only makes sense if KP is traded.
The fact that NBA history was brought up as an example of why two stay at home bigs will work in todays NBA just makes me shake my head... it's like, a lot of statistical evidence is brought up for why it will work, but when I bring up the nuances that might make that misleading, there's no response. Then it's just a whole lot of talk that is not remotely statistically based, about how you can just throw the best talent together and let them figure it out to make it work. Like, put the top 5 centers, or the top 5 point guards even on the floor together against an actual properly well constructed team and see what happens. According to one person, the best talent will win... It's the type of argument I expect from casual NBA 2K players building a team in the career mode.
Yep. This doesn’t work long term with gobert and KP. If KP is moved for a other legit #2, then gobert is worth it.
(12-16-2020, 03:16 PM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]Are you really that confident that if RC was given this choice to have on his team...
1) Dwight Powell
OR
2) Rudy Gobert
...he would choose Dwight?
He LOVES Dwight, but I would be stunned and in complete shock if he were to pass on such a talent upgrade to stick with Dwight.
P.S. I know it is more complicated than just DP for Gobert, but that is one way to look at the issue as a hypothetical.
I appreciate the PS, but that is burying the lead. It is ALL about the opportunity cost, imo. To sign Rudy, you have to clear the capspace and say goodbye to some quality on the wings. In a trade, even more.
It has been my contention that as much as fit is a concern, investing 70-80M in two C's in today's NBA is suicide unless you are capped out so fully and you trade for that piece to go with your fleshed out roster.
Now, if you think that Rudy was so impactful, wanted to sign him, and then flip KP for a wing, I could understand. I do not take THJ's shooting for granted and wouldn't just dismiss him for this science project. Remember that KP is also good at 3pt FOR A 5... He was pushing 40% his last year in ny, but for his career, he has been around 35%. He does work around the rim too. It is not a simple thing to remove that as an option.
I have said it before, give me WCS for 4 over Rudy at 30 and spend that money on a wing. KP as a 5 is a mismatch that diminishes with him next to Rudy, imo.
(12-16-2020, 11:26 PM)Mavsfan12 Wrote: [ -> ]give me WCS for 4 over Rudy at 30 and spend that money on a wing.
I would 100% be on board with this.....IF there is a wing that is even close to the talent and impact of Gobert.
What wing is available/attainable that fits that bill? Serious question.
(12-16-2020, 11:44 PM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]I would 100% be on board with this.....IF there is a wing that is even close to the talent and impact of Gobert.
What wing is available/attainable that fits that bill? Serious question.
When healthy, kp could get a nice return. Remember that HE is the outgoing in the trade scenario to obtain the wing. I just don't believe that the Mavs value Gobert over KP and would do such a thing.
I actually think that Was would do a Beal trade for KP. I actually don't know if I value Beal over KP due to defensive capability. I view Beal as an upgrade to THJ for his playmaking, but is a meh defender. His shooting would rise considerably though with the Doncic effect. Any trade would need to bring back a shooter. Replacing KP for Rudy would need to pick up shooting elsewhere in the lineup. I am hoping that this is the year that Luka isn't a liability from beyond 3. Fingers crossed.
I think it's as simple as these three questions:
-What would it cost to trade for him?
-Would he except an extension?
-Could you easily move that extended contract and get equal talent back?
From a trade perspective, these guys are off limits:
-Luka
-KP (for now)
-JRich (at least in the timeframe of this discussion)
-I'd also like to think the combo of DFS/Maxi isn't available together (one but not both).
So the trade would have to revolve around THJ, one of Maxi/DFS (probably Maxi), a pick and filler (one of our recent draft picks, Brunson, WCS). I'm not sure THJ is attractive to Utah so you'd probably need to include another team. And if my 3rd question is a yes, I could see another team coming to Utah with a better offer.
I'm not sure I love spending that much money on KP/Gobert either, but Cuban has often said zag when the league zigs. I guess it depends what the MBT views the prospect of KP's long term health is. They've got to be a little worried at this point.
(12-17-2020, 09:30 AM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]Come on, Gobert + Jazz. Come to an agreement. You can do it!
I hope they do, it would be ridiculous to hand him a supermax. Even the max is too much, he is not the best center in the league. I am happy they will do this bc its going to keep them a non-contender parking so much into a player that doesn't shoot.
https://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/26...sion-Talks
Quote:Rudy Gobert and the Utah Jazz continue to discuss a contract extension but it has been difficult for the media to get an accurate gauge on where each side stands on the negotiations. Gobert is eligible for a supermax but he is not holding out for that rich of a contract.
"I don't have prescise contract figures," said Tim MacMahon on the Brian Windhorst Podcast. "I have been told that he did not ask for the full supermax. I know there has been some reporting in Utah that he did. I've been told that is not true. That he did not ask for the full supermax.
"I don't know what neighborhood the Jazz are in. There's a gulf there. We will see if that gap is closed before the supermax extension deadline. He can also do a lesser extension during the season.
The relationship between Gobert and Donovan Mitchell also no longer appears to be a concern for Utah.
"The encouraging thing was after the way too public fallout between Donovan and Rudy Gobert, things between them went very smoothly in the bubble," added MacMahon. "It reaffirmed the Jazz's belief that it can continue to be a productive and personal partnership. Nobody is asking whether Donovan and Rudy can get along right now."