MavsBoard

(12-06-2020, 11:01 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]They might mess it up. Very possible. And you're right - the target is getting smaller. But, the standard is the standard, and it's a FACT that there's a minimum level of talent you need, if the goal is to be a championship favorite. 

And yes, there will be off-seasons after next, but unfortunately, if they come up empty between now and then, the stakes will be completely different. If that happens, depending on the situation, I might even be inclined to blow it up down to Luka again immediately and start this whole ride over. Trade KP (if he's healthy enough) and anyone else you can for picks and cheap players YOUNGER than Luka and start the long route again. 

ANYTHING but a repeat of Dirk's career.

I have to agree with this tbh. 

Luka signing a new contract change everything, that doesn't mean it is the last chance to add a super star or a sidekick to him. 

But, it is most likely the last chance to get a superstar with him and KP. If Mavs are planning to have KP 3rd contract being with the Mavs, then we need to get this one right from the start.



Players like KAT (his idol is Dirk), Devin Brooker have their contract being over in 2024, Jokic in 2023 are players that the Mavs could get during Luka era here. They will be our 3rd (and last) chance to get Luka a super star to win with him before he is UFA. 

But to get one of those, you will need to get rid of KP. And tbh even if KP is success here then I prefer that. Those guys are projected to have a longer career than him even if they are same age. 

But to reach that, we need to ensure to play our cards right. Develop some youth exciting players that could be used in trades. Don't trade draft picks before you pay some/all of your debts to the Knicks. Don't put all your cap space in jeopardy for players who doesn't move the needle in the playoffs. 

That is why I don't like the whole "let's upgrade" THJ/DFS type of trades. Players like Covington, Aaron Gordon, OPJ aren't players who will be the difference between us being 2nd round exit and championship type of team. 

We have recycled so many players like that in Dirk era, I just hope they don't do the same with Luka.

2021 isn't a perfect FA, it has 5 potential difference makers: Giannis, Kawhi, PG, Gobert & Oladipo. 

Giannis might hit FA, Oladipo might be back to his former self, Clippers might implode (and I don't believe for a second that their stars will stay if they get another 2nd round exit) and we will have a serious chance to get a 5th star. 

Or Giannis signs supermax now, Gobert signs max now, Clippers make it to the finals, Oladipo shows signs of decline and we have nothing to look for. 

At the end, I prefer to take the 2021 gamble, rather than getting overpaying for a player that won't make such a big difference. 


An important note: We had 3 exciting draft prospects, if we got an absolute steal in one of them, that changes the conversation. But I am talking under the assumption they are a supporting cast type of players at best.

(12-07-2020, 03:00 AM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]The question to ask for Gobert to be able to reach max contract status is if he can impact the game anytime he steps on the court. If your team has a coach that can put a scheme around Gobert that keeps him in the game in crunch time, then he is absolutely a max contract guy. If not, then nope.

Truer words have never been typed in this forum.

When your second best player cannot shoot a jumpshot you are definitely going to be celebrating lots of championships. That's why I am looking forward to a Gobert v Simmons matchup in the finals this year.

(12-07-2020, 12:45 PM)StepBackJay Wrote: [ -> ]When your second best player cannot shoot a jumpshot you are definitely going to be celebrating lots of championships. That's why I am looking forward to a Gobert v Simmons matchup in the finals this year.

Gobert only makes sense if you've given up on KP and are about to trade him for a wing.

I guess the other argument is "well you could flip Gobert later," but I have a hard time seeing that being the smart play. You're going to have to use assets in the first place to get Gobert. What player could you get with Gobert that you couldn't get with the assets you traded earlier? Why did the team that actually wanted Gobert not just trade for him earlier?

(12-07-2020, 12:45 PM)StepBackJay Wrote: [ -> ]That's why I am looking forward to a Gobert v Simmons matchup in the finals this year.

Houston won't even make the playoffs

(12-07-2020, 07:26 PM)Hypermav Wrote: [ -> ]Houston won't even make the playoffs

Because they don't have Gobert, of course. Although they might get Simmons here soon...

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Speaking of Houston they had Harden and Capella during their big run. They had on paper what you might argue for the Mavs, Harden is similar to Luka, CP3 was a secondary ball-handler you had Capella who did rim-rolling and shot blocking + other shooters to spread the floor. They did get really close but one of the reasons they couldn't get past Golden State was Capella having some not so strong playoff performances to put it mildly. These guys are hard to play the deeper you get into the playoffs.

They of course never had KP but the point remains the same if you have KP + another expensive traditional center you are going to be playing KP, not the other guy down the stretch.

(12-07-2020, 06:31 PM)Branduil Wrote: [ -> ]Gobert only makes sense if you've given up on KP and are about to trade him for a wing.

I guess the other argument is "well you could flip Gobert later," but I have a hard time seeing that being the smart play. You're going to have to use assets in the first place to get Gobert. What player could you get with Gobert that you couldn't get with the assets you traded earlier? Why did the team that actually wanted Gobert not just trade for him earlier?

He's already 28. I think the best years will be behind him. This contract he just got off of was a good number and you got him in his prime. The next contract will be one the team regrets when they can't get over the hump and he just keeps getting older. I would be surprised if he gets the max actually. I think the number he's at might get extended for a few years.

Right now salary-wise he is just under Drummond and right above Horford and Vucevic. Drummond is clearly overpaid and won't get that type of deal again. I don't know that Gobert can get into the KAT/Embed level which is only slightly higher than where he's at now $$$-wise despite him being more of a 1-dimensional player. I could see like a 4 year deal like Horford's that's 100 mil but the last year isn't fully guaranteed.

(12-07-2020, 12:56 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]

(12-07-2020, 06:31 PM)Branduil Wrote: [ -> ]Gobert only makes sense if you've given up on KP and are about to trade him for a wing.

I guess the other argument is "well you could flip Gobert later," but I have a hard time seeing that being the smart play. You're going to have to use assets in the first place to get Gobert. What player could you get with Gobert that you couldn't get with the assets you traded earlier? Why did the team that actually wanted Gobert not just trade for him earlier?

The angle I have on Gobert is that he is the preservation of the cap space. He extends the expiring contracts of J-Rich OR THJ and Johnson. In that scenario you are losing some flexibility because it will require assets to convert those contracts into Gobert but that is much better than holding cap space into the nether world. I would not recommend trading 2-3 of those contracts into lesser players...

I will tell you that I see Gobert as the fantasy piece... I am much more realistic that the player we can acquire is not as good as Gobert and probably not on an expiring deal. The bad news is that IMO the most available player can't be acquired using Richardson without a 3rd team.

(12-07-2020, 09:10 PM)SkenfromLMF Wrote: [ -> ]The angle I have on Gobert is that he is the preservation of the cap space. He extends the expiring contracts of J-Rich OR THJ and Johnson. In that scenario you are losing some flexibility because it will require assets to convert those contracts into Gobert but that is much better than holding cap space into the nether world. I would not recommend trading 2-3 of those contracts into lesser players...

I will tell you that I see Gobert as the fantasy piece... I am much more realistic that the player we can acquire is not as good as Gobert and probably not on an expiring deal. The bad news is that IMO the most available player can't be acquired using Richardson without a 3rd team.

I don't follow. 

Gobert expires at the end of this season, just like those guys, and he wants a max deal (that's why people think he's available for trade in the first place).

What's the point of "consolidating" two players who fit with the Mavs into one whose fit is questionable?

I would hope that any trade Dallas makes is based on THJ and not Richardson. So a trade for Gobert would be THJ, Johnson, and picks/rookies. The goal here is using Gobert (and his new contract) to salvage the cap space they theoretically have built up by having an asset that can then be traded (RG/KP) when a player is available.

My fear is trying to create cap space and losing our FA's in the time we tried to land a bigger fish. I am much more comfortable operating as a team above the cap, building up assets, rather than opening up space at the cost of a Richardson.

(12-08-2020, 02:54 AM)SkenfromLMF Wrote: [ -> ]I would hope that any trade Dallas makes is based on THJ and not Richardson. So a trade for Gobert would be THJ, Johnson, and picks/rookies.  The goal here is using Gobert (and his new contract) to salvage the cap space they theoretically have built up by having an asset that can then be traded (RG/KP) when a player is available.

I still don't follow. Are you saying trade for Gobert and re-sign him when he expires...to trade him, someday? I don't understand what you mean by "salvage the cap space." 

Quote:My fear is trying to create cap space and losing our FA's in the time we tried to land a bigger fish. I am much more comfortable operating as a team above the cap, building up assets, rather than opening up space at the cost of a Richardson.

You are the second person who has suggested this doomsday scenario. They don't have to renounce the rights of anyone until they make an offer, and this is an up and coming team that likes each other and has fun together. I think the idea that these guys would run for the hills the second they're free is ludicrous. All three of the Mavs' free agents are very likely to want to come back. 

I don't understand where this particular fear comes from. I'd put the chances of that happening at like <1%.

If you think that Richardson sits out in FA waiting on Dallas to chase higher priority players - that is a mistake. If you want Richardson to stay there will be a reduced amount of cap space available.

Yes I am saying trade for Gobert and then sign him instead of accumulating space. Though I do not think this is readily possible without Donovan Mitchell refusing to play.

IF Richardson works as a fit with Luka, I would look to add a piece in trade and then work out the long term deal with him at the beginning of FA.

In my perfect scenario: Richardson and THJ work, Powell makes a significant contribution and a trade becomes available for a high paid piece using Johnson and Powell once KP returns. Ultimately I would hope for Aaron Gordon, but the player most likely to be available makes much more than that - I would settle for Tobias Harris IF I knew Richardson was capable of being the 2nd best (or 3rd if KP hits another level with consistent health).

(12-08-2020, 11:11 PM)SkenfromLMF Wrote: [ -> ]If you think that Richardson sits out in FA waiting on Dallas to chase higher priority players - that is a mistake. If you want Richardson to stay there will be a reduced amount of cap space available.

A) There are lots of ways (with cap space) the Mavs can go about their business without letting go of Richardson's cap hold. They could then go over the cap to re-sign him. Not saying this is the path they'll choose, only that it's very possible. Not in a pipe dream way, either. It really can be done. 

B) Every team goes into each off-season with, idk, 5 different major scenarios they're trying to accomplish. Fans act like they play option A out from start to finish before moving on to option B, but the reality seems to be more like getting options A, B, C, D and E to the five yard line before pulling the trigger on any of them. Think about it: how many "conceptual deals" did we read about this time around?

The point is: Richardson probably knows RIGHT NOW that if Giannis is available, SEVERAL of his preferred destinations are going to be in a holding pattern waiting for that to resolve. You think that IF he has a good year and likes playing here, that he won't want to come back? That the idea of Giannis coming (without affecting his level of rumuneration) wouldn't INCREASE that interest? 

Now, maybe he does scatter like a roach when the lights come on to get out of here, but if so, I submit that it has little to do with the Mavs' approach to next off-season and a lot to do with things going horribly wrong for both he and the team during this season. See Delon Wright, 2019-20. 

Again, I'm not worried about this doomsday scenario AT ALL. Like, even when I TRY to worry about it just to see where you're coming from, I can't. 

In terms of Gobert, I agree that in a vacuum, he's a better individual player than Richardson, THJ or Johnson. But, I'd much rather have any two of them instead of him, especially here in Dallas. This is my subjective opinion, based on my view that he and Porzingis aren't a great fit. People who think the opposite might find that idea attractive, which I can understand. 

What I can't understand is trading for him simply to acquire him as an asset, and for no other reason. That seems convoluted as HELL to me. I think if the three guys here all play well and you're able to get them on decent contracts, they could possibly be more valuable as assets than Gobert, specifically because they can be combined or sold separately. And, they are players who fit here on the court, which is the MAIN reason I'd be ok with bringing them all back as a last resort.

Luka Doncic was asked if he wants to trade Jokic in place of big-man Boban Marjanovic in his recent media availability. Here’s what Doncic said: 

“I can’t trade anyone. But if Jokic wants to come over, he should come over. He knows he wants to.”

https://www.essentiallysports.com/nba-ne...asketball/

(12-08-2020, 11:11 PM)SkenfromLMF Wrote: [ -> ]If you think that Richardson sits out in FA waiting on Dallas to chase higher priority players - that is a mistake. If you want Richardson to stay there will be a reduced amount of cap space available.

Am I missing something with Richardson? People here are overrating him before playing even one game.

The guy is a role player, a good one. But role players always waited till top FA signed first. 

I mean this is the guy which his team had to pay a 2nd to get Seth Curry, who was a decent 6th man for us but nothing great either. 

If anything, I will worry more about him opting in after mediocre year rather than losing him for nothing. 

(12-09-2020, 07:04 AM)khaled1987 Wrote: [ -> ]Am I missing something with Richardson? People here are overrating him before playing even one game.

The guy is a role player, a good one. But role players always waited till top FA signed first. 

I mean this is the guy which his team had to pay a 2nd to get Seth Curry, who was a decent 6th man for us but nothing great either. 

If anything, I will worry more about him opting in after mediocre year rather than losing him for nothing. 

I guess I am with those on a more optimistic side hoping JRich will have an excellent season for a number 3 or 4 guy on a contender. Imagine a competitive team drops an 80mil/4 years contract on the table saying: "we love you, you are great fit, we want to build our future around you as one of our main guys, but we can't afford to wait, so take it or leave it". 

Are you really sure he will say: "No thank you, but I am waiting for Dallas if they can sign GA or resign me"? I don't think so.

(12-09-2020, 06:38 AM)ClutchDirk Wrote: [ -> ]if Jokic wants to come over, he should come over. He knows he wants to.

Luka knows. He wants two big men.

(12-09-2020, 08:07 AM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]

(12-09-2020, 06:38 AM)ClutchDirk Wrote: [ -> ]if Jokic wants to come over, he should come over. He knows he wants to.

Luka knows. He wants two big men.

Gobert is good, but Jokic is another thing entirely. He's exactly what KillerLeft has been talking about. Not only is he a big, he can shoot and he can create for himself, and for others. 

Alas, he's not available, and if Denver plays their cards right, he probably never will be.

(12-09-2020, 07:55 AM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ]I guess I am with those on a more optimistic side hoping JRich will have an excellent season for a number 3 or 4 guy on a contender. 

I am optimistic too.
 That doesn't mean I start projecting a scenario of fearing losing him after the imaginary great sesson happens. 

(12-09-2020, 07:55 AM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ] Imagine a competitive team drops an 80mil/4 years contract on the table saying: "we love you, you are great fit, we want to build our future around you as one of our main guys, but we can't afford to wait, so take it or leave it". 

Are you really sure he will say: "No thank you, but I am waiting for Dallas if they can sign GA or resign me"? I don't think so.

I can imagine a lot of things, but I am not gonna start worrying about it.

What if he fails and opt in? What if it THJ who has great year? What if Green proves to be better version of JRich? What if Terry is the next great Terry and he takes ton of playing time in guard spot?  I can go on and on here. 
Until this happens, I won't worry about a scenario of losing a player we have just acquired , and talk about the need for trades in order to get someone + Richardson