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(12-21-2020, 04:42 PM)SleepingHero Wrote: [ -> ]I'm honestly imagining this thread as a bunch of us in a sports bar arguing over this. It's pretty entertaining if you think of it that way.

Well then I can tell who has had one too many drinks and who hasn't....

[Image: Wjc.gif]

(12-21-2020, 04:42 PM)SleepingHero Wrote: [ -> ]I'm honestly imagining this thread as a bunch of us in a sports bar arguing over this. It's pretty entertaining if you think of it that way.

I've mentioned this before. So maybe this means my conscience still hasn't recovered. But, I was at a sports bar with a guy named K___er, having just enjoyed free tickets provided by said K___er. And I failed to pay for his beer.

:-(

(12-21-2020, 05:04 PM)fifteenth Wrote: [ -> ]I've mentioned this before. So maybe this means my conscience still hasn't recovered. But, I was at a sports bar with a guy named K___er, having just enjoyed free tickets provided by said K___er. And I failed to pay for his beer.

:-(

Since LeBron 2.0 (Gobert) is locked up, we need to find a new guy that we can argue about that is more available and that Kamm is all in on. Who is that player??

(12-22-2020, 09:02 AM)StepBackJay Wrote: [ -> ]Since LeBron 2.0 (Gobert) is locked up, we need to find a new guy that we can argue about that is more available and that Kamm is all in on. Who is that player??

I've got Andre Drummond ranked as the #8 player in the world, 1 spot behind Gobert. Let's get him before it's too late!

Are we going to continue with the uneducated troll attempts instead of actually engaging in a meaningful discussion? If that´s the case closing the thread is probably the best option. There are plenty of counter points and stats that could be used to make a case against Gobert. Sadly I haven´t seen a lot of them in this thread.
From what I know about Kamm as a poster he is really high on +/- and lineup data. And using those numbers it is easy to understand why he thinks that Gobert is one of the best players in the league. Personally I think Kamm is closer to the truth than many of us think. I do think that Gobert (not Mitchell) is Utahs best player and I do think that he was by far the best defender in the last 3-5 years.

That said. I already voiced my concerns about his playoff performance. Especially in matchups against perimeter orientated teams like Houston in the last few years. Against a 4-1 or 5-out pick and roll offense most of his strengths aren´t as valuable and to make things worse he couldn´t really take advantage of smaller defenders on the other end. That was one of my biggest concerns when it comes to the KP-Gobert combination. Two bigman that cannot take advantage of mismatches and struggle to score against smaller defenders.

Gobert improved his perimeter defense but against the Nuggets this year he once again really struggled to defend the Murray-Jokic pick and roll and even more important allowed Jokic to have a career best shooting performance from 3-point range.

I would also point out that in the last few years the Jazz did not look a lot worse when Gobert was replaced by Favors. Both playing together always lead to some problems but as the sole big Favors was nearly as good as Gobert.

(12-22-2020, 10:05 AM)dirkfansince1998 Wrote: [ -> ]Are we going to continue with the uneducated troll attempts instead of actually engaging in a meaningful discussion? If that´s the case closing the thread is probably the best option. There are plenty of counter points and stats that could be used to make a case against Gobert. Sadly I haven´t seen a lot if them in this thread.
From what I know about Kamm as a poster he is really high on +/- and lineup data. And using those numbers it is easy to understand why he thinks that Gobert is one of the best players in the league. Personally I think Kamm is closer to the truth than many of us think. I do think that Gobert (not Mitchell) is Utahs best player and I do think that he was by far the best defender in the last 3-5 years.

That said. I already voiced my concerns about his playoff performance. Especially in matchups against perimeter orientated teams like Houston in the last few years. Against a 4-1 or 5-out pick and roll offense most of his strengths aren´t as valuable and to make things worse he couldn´t really take advantage of smaller defenders on the other end. That was one of my biggest concerns when it comes to the KP-Gobert combination. Two bigman that cannot take advantage of mismatches and struggle to score against smaller defenders.

Gobert improved his perimeter defense but against the Nuggets this year he once again really struggled to defend the Murray-Jokic pick and roll and even more important allowed Jokic to have a career best shooting performance from 3-point range.

I would also point out that in the last few years the Jazz did not look a lot worse when Gobert was replaced by Favors. Both playing together always lead to some problems but as the sole big Favors was nearly as good as Gobert.

Your last point has always been the issue... is Gobert the best defensive big in the league? Probably. But you can get 80% of what he gives you for a fraction of the cost.

I think Gobert is a outstanding player, but also a player with a lot of offensive flaws in today's NBA. If he could shoot like KP, I would be all over him being a top 10 player. I personally don't think a team can win a title with Gobert as their #1 or #2 best player. All kidding aside I would rather have Drummond at 7-10 million a year opposed to Gobert at max money, but that's just me. Everyone is entitled to their opinions. Nobody should take them personal.

(12-22-2020, 11:01 AM)BigDirk41 Wrote: [ -> ]All kidding aside I would rather have Drummond at 7-10 million a year

Just so I’m clear, is this you paying Drummond $7-10 million, or him paying you? If he came with a $7-10 million cap surplus that could be used on GOOD players, I suppose I’d be ok with Drummond hanging out in the locker room and on the end of the bench. You know, if he’s quiet.

(12-22-2020, 09:02 AM)StepBackJay Wrote: [ -> ]Since LeBron 2.0 (Gobert) is locked up, we need to find a new guy that we can argue about that is more available and that Kamm is all in on. Who is that player??

I volunteer to drive the Jarrett Allen is the next Tyson Chandler bandwagon for the next six months. Occasionally I´ll be slacking like James Harden, but you´ll have to accept that I am the board overlord and show up for discussion whenever I want. Sometimes I´ll just answer posts with a simple: next question!

I don't think Andre Drummond can contribute to winning basketball as he is. His game would have to evolve. He'd have to spend time with a coach figuring out if he can do things that contribute to winning basketball games.

(12-22-2020, 11:01 AM)BigDirk41 Wrote: [ -> ]I think Gobert is a outstanding player, but also a player with a lot of offensive flaws in today's NBA. If he could shoot like KP, I would be all over him being a top 10 player. I personally don't think a team can win a title with Gobert as their #1 or #2 best player. All kidding aside I would rather have Drummond at 7-10 million a year opposed to Gobert at max money, but that's just me. Everyone is entitled to their opinions. Nobody should take them personal.

Honestly there are probably 5-6 players in the whole league that can win the title as a #1 option (LeBron, Durant, Steph, Kawhi, hopefully Luka). Then there are 7-8 players that can single-handidly carry almost any team to the play-offs (Giannis, CP3, Lillard, Jokic, Westbrook, Harden, Davis). You can argue whether Gobert or Mitchell belongs in that 2nd tier, or if it´s a combination of both. Then there are some borderline cases (think KAT, Booker, DeRozan or Beal) that can probably do it, under the right circumstances (strong cast/weaker opposition).

That does not mean some players are not stars, but I think the group of players that is truly championship material is so small. Think about the last 20 years:

Kobe
Shaq
Wade
Duncan
Dirk
KG (and Pierce)
LeBron
Steph
Durant
Kawhi

How many true outliers are there? The 2004 Pistons are about the only team that won the title without a top 30 player of all-time.

So if Gobert can carry a team to 42-50 wins by himself as the #1 player (even if the contribution is mainly one side of the floor) that is a pretty elusive club of current players already.

(12-22-2020, 10:05 AM)dirkfansince1998 Wrote: [ -> ]Are we going to continue with the uneducated troll attempts instead of actually engaging in a meaningful discussion? If that´s the case closing the thread is probably the best option. There are plenty of counter points and stats that could be used to make a case against Gobert. Sadly I haven´t seen a lot if them in this thread.
From what I know about Kamm as a poster he is really high on +/- and lineup data. And using those numbers it is easy to understand why he thinks that Gobert is one of the best players in the league. Personally I think Kamm is closer to the truth than many of us think. I do think that Gobert (not Mitchell) is Utahs best player and I do think that he was by far the best defender in the last 3-5 years.

That said. I already voiced my concerns about his playoff performance. Especially in matchups against perimeter orientated teams like Houston in the last few years. Against a 4-1 or 5-out pick and roll offense most of his strengths aren´t as valuable and to make things worse he couldn´t really take advantage of smaller defenders on the other end. That was one of my biggest concerns when it comes to the KP-Gobert combination. Two bigman that cannot take advantage of mismatches and struggle to score against smaller defenders.

Gobert improved his perimeter defense but against the Nuggets this year he once again really struggled to defend the Murray-Jokic pick and roll and even more important allowed Jokic to have a career best shooting performance from 3-point range.

I would also point out that in the last few years the Jazz did not look a lot worse when Gobert was replaced by Favors. Both playing together always lead to some problems but as the sole big Favors was nearly as good as Gobert.

Great stuff. Really appreciate this take.

[Image: source.gif]

Getting back to a serious argument, can you point to me a defensive, dunking center leading to a championship in the last decade (or longer)?

I am just thinking about some very good all-star defensive, dunking, rebounding centers of the last decade:

- DAJ
- Whiteside
- Adams
- Capella
- Chandler

These are all centers without much of an offensive game outside of dunking. I do not include guys like either Gasol brother or even Dwight Howard who had more offensive game in their prime. How many of these guys could carry a team?

Interestingly enough all of these guys the Mavs have had interest in over the years. Chandler was the lynchpin to the Mavs getting over the hump but the Mavs didn't build a team around him. The Knicks got Chandler the next year who was DPOY but he and Carmelo + old Kidd got only to the second round.

I would say Capella has had the most success out of this bunch in terms of team success. The Rockets came very close to beating the stacked Warriors. I don't think any of these guys were ever the first or 2nd building block. At best maybe the 3rd core piece? And honestly I don't believe any of these players in their prime are much different than Gobert in his current prime.

Are you really going to believe that Gobert is able to be your first or second best player and win a championship? Honestly I think the Jazz have a shot at contention but mostly bc they have a very solid roster including extremely underrated Bojan Bogdan who was injured last year. Bojan, Mitchell, Ingles, Gobert, Favors, Conley, Clarkson. They are solid. Their ceiling to me is tied more to their playmakers Bojan and Mitchell than Gobert.

(12-22-2020, 04:04 PM)StepBackJay Wrote: [ -> ]- DAJ
- Whiteside
- Adams
- Capella
- Chandler

None of those guys are close to Gobert.

I never really like the "it hasn't been done that way" argument. It was used against Dirk as well. There is some value in talking about archetypes, but some players are simply better than other players of their ilke. I think Gobert is more impactful than what is expected of his archetype.

Given that, I'd say the odds are against Gobert leading a team to a championship, but not just because of his archetype. The same is true of Jokic, Lillard, Harden, Embid and others. It's hard to win a championship. But that doesn't mean you give up on Jokic, Lillard, Harden, Embid, etc. (hard to say that about Harden at the moment, but...). You just have to try to build the best roster possible. There are very few players at any one time that make you an immediate finals contender, but there are a lot of players who can be your best (max) player and that will require some better team building to make it work.

(12-22-2020, 04:04 PM)StepBackJay Wrote: [ -> ]Getting back to a serious argument, can you point to me a defensive, dunking center leading to a championship in the last decade (or longer)?

I am just thinking about some very good all-star defensive, dunking, rebounding centers of the last decade:

- DAJ
- Whiteside
- Adams
- Capella
- Chandler

These are all centers without much of an offensive game outside of dunking. I do not include guys like either Gasol brother or even Dwight Howard who had more offensive game in their prime. How many of these guys could carry a team?

Interestingly enough all of these guys the Mavs have had interest in over the years. Chandler was the lynchpin to the Mavs getting over the hump but the Mavs didn't build a team around him. The Knicks got Chandler the next year who was DPOY but he and Carmelo + old Kidd got only to the second round.

I would say Capella has had the most success out of this bunch in terms of team success. The Rockets came very close to beating the stacked Warriors. I don't think any of these guys were ever the first or 2nd building block. At best maybe the 3rd core piece? And honestly I don't believe any of these players in their prime are much different than Gobert in his current prime.

Are you really going to believe that Gobert is able to be your first or second best player and win a championship? Honestly I think the Jazz have a shot at contention but mostly bc they have a very solid roster including extremely underrated Bojan Bogdan who was injured last year. Bojan, Mitchell, Ingles, Gobert, Favors, Conley, Clarkson. They are solid. Their ceiling to me is tied more to their playmakers Bojan and Mitchell than Gobert.

DAJ was a good defender for a few years in LA. Never close to Goberts level.

Whiteside is one of the worst team defenders in the league. Refuses to guard the perimeter but I guess he has fancy block and rebound numbers.

Adams is a solid defender and in my opinion the best team rebounder in the NBA. Incredible boxouts on defense and a real force on the offensive board. Also the best screener and maybe the strongest player in the entire league. Still not enough to compensate for Goberts superior impact on defense.

Chandler was great in Dallas. In my opinion the 2nd best player on a championship team. Later in his career with declining quickness his defense wasn´t what it used to be but during his 2nd stint with the Mavs he was an even better pick and roll player.

I was never as high on Capela. Solid rim protector with above average quickness but he lacks the intangibles (leadership, calling out plays,...) to be a great defensive anchor.

Overall there are probably less than 5-6 guys that can win a championship as the 1st option. LBJ, Kawhi, Durant, Curry. Hopefully Luka. I wouldn´t include guys like Harden, Giannis or Lillard.
Among bigman on a max contract the only one with more team success has been Jokic. AD wasn´t doing anything in NO. Embiid and the 76ers had similar results in the playoffs. Towns is a great scorer but year after year his teams are among the worst in the league on defense.
And it´s not like Gobert had world beating supporting casts. Hayward and Mitchell as his co stars and solid role players like Favors, Ingles, Rubio, Bogdanovic.

If you want to make the case that someone like Gobert cannot win a ring on his own because he lacks scoring skills that´s certainly true. But other players cannot win a ring because they have their own (most of the time even bigger) limitations. If Jokic could defend in space the Nuggets would be my favorit to win it all. If Lillard could stay in front of opposing guards the Blazers would be a lot better. If Giannis could shoot the Bucks wouldn´t struggle to score in the playoffs.

There is no way to deny that Gobert is one of the highest impact players in the regular season. Ranking him in the top 10 seems reasonable and most advanced metrics support the claim. The playoffs are a different story but Gobert is not the only star player that struggles when teams are taking away his strengths and exposing his weaknesses.

(12-22-2020, 04:26 PM)fifteenth Wrote: [ -> ]None of those guys are close to Gobert.

I never really like the "it hasn't been done that way" argument. It was used against Dirk as well. There is some value in talking about archetypes, but some players are simply better than other players of their ilke. I think Gobert is more impactful than what is expected of his archetype.

Given that, I'd say the odds are against Gobert leading a team to a championship, but not just because of his archetype. The same is true of Jokic, Lillard, Harden, Embid and others. It's hard to win a championship. But that doesn't mean you give up on Jokic, Lillard, Harden, Embid, etc. (hard to say that about Harden at the moment, but...). You just have to try to build the best roster possible. There are very few players at any one time that make you an immediate finals contender, but there are a lot of players who can be your best (max) player and that will require some better team building to make it work.

It's amazing to me that you say none of those guys in their prime are close to Gobert. Joakim Noah is another guy I left off who was DPOY like Chandler. Jordan in his prime was considered a top defender and rebounder. I don't see this giant chasm in terms of ability you all are seeing. I am not talking about current day play of any of these centers, I am talking the 2-3 best years of their prime these were top centers. If you want to throw out Whiteside fine, but he was shot-blocking, rebounding monster in his prime. I know Rudy has been DOPY twice which is very impressive, but has only made the all-star team once I believe. If he was a top 10 player don't you think he would have made more than 1 all-star team?

(12-22-2020, 04:42 PM)dirkfansince1998 Wrote: [ -> ]And it´s not like Gobert had world beating supporting casts. Hayward and Mitchell as his co stars and solid role players like Favors, Ingles, Rubio, Bogdanovic.

I think his supporting cast is just fine. Hayward and Mitchell were both all-stars. Those other players are really good. I don't think you can make the argument with Gobert that he hasn't had a solid team around them. That supporting cast is good enough to get them to the playoffs 4 years in a row, this year should be the 5th if they are healthy. The issue is whether they can win a championship with Gobert being their 1st or 2nd best player.

(12-22-2020, 05:13 PM)StepBackJay Wrote: [ -> ]It's amazing to me that you say none of those guys in their prime are close to Gobert.

(12-22-2020, 06:46 PM)fifteenth Wrote: [ -> ]

Can you offer me a better example of a defensive center in the last decade that is a comp to Gobert? Or are you really saying he is a one of a kind player despite being so limited offensively.

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