(07-12-2022, 11:25 AM)Chicagojk Wrote: [ -> ]I think in time Jaden is going to be a very good ball handler. I do agree he is dribbling himself into trouble, but that is to be expected. Especially in summer league where guys who can dribble are extra aggressive to try to get theirs.
I also think the spacing of summer league SUCKS so dribbling into the lane is extra hard.
(07-12-2022, 11:28 AM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]I also think the spacing of summer league SUCKS so dribbling into the lane is extra hard.
Yeah, it’s both, I think.
He is probably being challenged to not give up on his dribble so easily and settle for a mid range shot that he is comfortable with, but try to improve his penetration skills.
Simultaneously, yes, the spacing is much worse in summer league than it is in a real game.
Hardy probably isn’t equipped yet to reconcile those opposing concepts.
(07-12-2022, 11:28 AM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]I can understand the “start him off simple” POV about Hardy playing off-ball. But…
I think playing off-ball is a whole different skillset, and much more difficult than many of us realize.
And, I think the entire allure of Hardy is his ability to create shots (for himself, so far) off of the dribble. My opinion is that you lean into what he is, because that’s why you drafted him.
If that takes longer, it takes longer. The mistake would be positioning yourself to NEED him to play right away if he’s not up to it.
Agreed we don’t need to put a limit on him but at the same time I don’t think we need to wait it out either. What after 2 years he still has shaky handles in traffic and makes poor decisions? Regardless of why they drafted him the ultimate goal is to hit on a draft pick. So what if he is a Klay or a Reggie Miller or a RIP type than a Beal type off guard?
I think every player like him who has a really good looking shot would probably benefit a lot if they are forced to play off the ball a lot in their early years. It will slow down the game for him plus force him to be patient and work hard for shots. Whether he eventually becomes a much more adept ball handler or not the ability to play off ball a lot can only help him.
(07-12-2022, 11:48 AM)hakeemfaan Wrote: [ -> ]I think every player like him who has a really good looking shot would probably benefit a lot if they are forced to play off the ball a lot in their early years. It will slow down the game for him plus force him to be patient and work hard for shots. Whether he eventually becomes a much more adept ball handler or not the ability to play off ball a lot can only help him.
I agree with this, too.
The concept we are circling here is that each case is probably different and it’s a lot harder to develop these guys than we might imagine.
One thing I have learned recently watching first DSJ and then Luka is that when there’s something there with a player you know it pretty quickly. I realize Luka is an extreme case, but you can see “it” in other young players, too. Desmond Bane, for example.
The second Luka got here, the entire team dynamic changed. Suddenly, I was extremely aware of how much slack I personally was giving to DSJ and how pointless that probably was. He flashed some ability, but it was more obvious than I was previously admitting that he just wasn’t a good NBA player.
I go back-and-forth about where on this spectrum I believe Green is. Sometimes I feel like he is progressing nicely and at other times I feel he’s a waste of time.
In Hardy’s case, I think there is evidence of skill that belongs on this level right in front of our eyes already. I don’t think that necessarily means that he needs to get thrown headfirst into the rotation or that he’s going to be a contributor this year when the games matter, but I feel like I’ve already seen enough to know he’s going to make it in the league.
(07-12-2022, 11:48 AM)hakeemfaan Wrote: [ -> ]Agreed we don’t need to put a limit on him but at the same time I don’t think we need to wait it out either. What after 2 years he still has shaky handles in traffic and makes poor decisions? Regardless of why they drafted him the ultimate goal is to hit on a draft pick. So what if he is a Klay or a Reggie Miller or a RIP type than a Beal type off guard?
I think every player like him who has a really good looking shot would probably benefit a lot if they are forced to play off the ball a lot in their early years. It will slow down the game for him plus force him to be patient and work hard for shots. Whether he eventually becomes a much more adept ball handler or not the ability to play off ball a lot can only help him.
I do believe that if there's anyone who can develop him appropriately, it's Kidd.
(07-12-2022, 11:59 AM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]One thing I have learned recently watching first DSJ and then Luka is that when there’s something there with a player you know it pretty quickly. I realize Luka is an extreme case, but you can see “it” in other young players, too. Desmond Bane, for example.
The second Luka got here, the entire team dynamic changed. Suddenly, I was extremely aware of how much slack I personally was giving to DSJ and how pointless that probably was. He flashed some ability, but it was more obvious than I was previously admitting that he just wasn’t a good NBA player.
I go back-and-forth about where on this spectrum I believe Green is. Sometimes I feel like he is progressing nicely and at other times I feel he’s a waste of time.
In Hardy’s case, I think there is evidence of skill that belongs on this level right in front of our eyes already. I don’t think that necessarily means that he needs to get thrown headfirst into the rotation or that he’s going to be a contributor this year when the games matter, but I feel like I’ve already seen enough to know he’s going to make it in the league.
I was working on post describing "it" yesterday and deleted it:
-Obviously has it: Luka
-Has some of it but doesn't always believe in himself: DFS
-Doesn't have it, but thinks he does: Not sure who qualifies on our roster.
-Doesn't have it: Josh
Hardy has it.
I don't think having it means you'll have a successful NBA career. And also don't think if you lack it that you can't get it down the line.
(07-12-2022, 11:50 AM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]I agree with this, too.
The concept we are circling here is that each case is probably different and it’s a lot harder to develop these guys than we might imagine.
Agreed. Off the ball as you said is much more difficult because a lot of players who make it to the NBA are the best of the best at every level and most coaches from a young age don’t run plays for the less ball dominate kid. So most guards know they will get more minutes handling the ball. Playing off the ball, passing and relocating, passing and moving, reading defenses don’t come easy to players who have played years a different way.
My understanding was that Dyson Daniels became the primary ball handler for Ignite and that when Hardy started to improve in the 2nd half he was not the primary ball handler. Is that not true?
(07-12-2022, 12:08 PM)cow Wrote: [ -> ]I don't think having it means you'll have a successful NBA career. And also don't think if you lack it that you can't get it down the line.
Agreed!
But THOSE are the guys you should hunker down and invest some time into, imho.
(07-12-2022, 12:14 PM)hakeemfaan Wrote: [ -> ]My understanding was that Dyson Daniels became the primary ball handler for Ignite and that when Hardy started to improve in the 2nd half he was not the primary ball handler. Is that not true?
I didn’t even know the Ignite existed before the Mavericks drafted Hardy, so it seems like you are much more informed than I.
I’m just forming quick opinions based on the scouting videos Kamm provided and the summer league play, so far.
He has more counters and solutions to get shots off already then DSJ has right now. I can promise you that. Will that translate into immediate success? Not sure.
I think DSJ is a good example of what worries me. If you have zero NBA level skills and try to develop five at the same time, the risk is you develop none (and never see a second contract).
If you can get one thing NBA ready, you stand a chance of hanging around long enough to work on the other elements of your game.
(07-12-2022, 12:17 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]Agreed!
But THOSE are the guys you should hunker down and invest some time into, imho.
I really want Hardy to get 10 minutes a game this year.
(07-12-2022, 12:14 PM)hakeemfaan Wrote: [ -> ]My understanding was that Dyson Daniels became the primary ball handler for Ignite and that when Hardy started to improve in the 2nd half he was not the primary ball handler. Is that not true?
That´s also what I saw in the first two summer league games. Hardy was at his best when he shared the floor with Pajulo. The only guard that is at least trying to run some kind of offense.
(07-12-2022, 12:26 PM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: [ -> ]I think DSJ is a good example of what worries me. If you have zero NBA level skills and try to develop five at the same time, the risk is you develop none (and never see a second contract).
If you can get one thing NBA ready, you stand a chance of hanging around long enough to work on the other elements of your game.
DSJ was all athlete and got by because of it but that's much harder to do in the NBA because almost everyone is a great athlete, super skilled or both. This has always been a conundrum of the Mavs as we typically go for highly skilled guys that don't have the best athleticism (Luka, JB) or go for guys with great measurables who have below average fundamentals (DSJ, Josh). I know getting both is rarer but it would be nice to have someone who is a force of nature on both ends of the court.
(07-12-2022, 12:36 PM)cow Wrote: [ -> ]DSJ was all athlete and got by because of it but that's much harder to do in the NBA because almost everyone is a great athlete, super skilled or both. This has always been a conundrum of the Mavs as we typically go for highly skilled guys that don't have the best athleticism (Luka, JB) or go for guys with great measurables who have below average fundamentals (DSJ, Josh). I know getting both is rarer but it would be nice to have someone who is a force of nature on both ends of the court.
The players you're describing usually end up as really high draft picks. Mavs fortunately don't draft high.
I agree with you though. Drafting has always been abhorrent during Cuban's time as an owner. But the last 5 years in which they've made 5 picks, I really like the 4 they've chosen (Luka, JB, Josh, Hardy). It took me a year and some months to enjoy Green, and same with JB.
It seems as if the Mavs are taking drafting more seriously though which is a nice sight to see.
(07-12-2022, 12:40 PM)SleepingHero Wrote: [ -> ]The players you're describing usually end up as really high draft picks. Mavs fortunately don't draft high.
I agree with you though. Drafting has always been abhorrent during Cuban's time as an owner. But the last 5 years in which they've made 5 picks, I really like the 4 they've chosen (Luka, JB, Josh, Hardy). It took me a year and some months to enjoy Green, and same with JB.
It seems as if the Mavs are taking drafting more seriously though which is a nice sight to see.
The apex athletes that are skilled sure, but just like there are gradients to skilled guys (we did snag Luka and JB in the same draft), there are gradients for skilled athletes. I'm upset we didn't figure out a way to retain Hunt. Lawson is showing some flashes though.
(07-12-2022, 12:26 PM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: [ -> ]I think DSJ is a good example of what worries me. If you have zero NBA level skills and try to develop five at the same time, the risk is you develop none (and never see a second contract).
If you can get one thing NBA ready, you stand a chance of hanging around long enough to work on the other elements of your game.
The thing with this is (and I could be wrong) that I don't think "having zero NBA skills" is Hardy's problem. I think it absolutely WAS DSJ's problem.
No idea
why Hardy lasted until 37, but I'm telling you, when I watch him, he has the kind of off-the-dribble repertoire you expect from like a Jason Terry level guy. More, even. I don't think the turnovers are due to his handle, I think he's dribbling into three defenders needlessly.
It's a minor distinction, I know. Maybe it's just semantics. But to me, I think he's already GOT the skills and he's onto stage 2:
how to apply them. DSJ had very little when he was here. If his first attempt at a straight line drive (always with the right) didn't work, he was just a deer in headlights. Could be wrong, but I think Hardy is
already much farther along than that.
(07-12-2022, 03:26 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]The thing with this is (and I could be wrong) that I don't think "having zero NBA skills" is Hardy's problem. I think it absolutely WAS DSJ's problem.
No idea why Hardy lasted until 37, but I'm telling you, when I watch him, he has the kind of off-the-dribble repertoire you expect from like a Jason Terry level guy. More, even. I don't think the turnovers are due to his handle, I think he's dribbling into three defenders needlessly.
It's a minor distinction, I know. Maybe it's just semantics. But to me, I think he's already GOT the skills and he's onto stage 2: how to apply them. DSJ had very little when he was here. If his first attempt at a straight line drive (always with the right) didn't work, he was just a deer in headlights. Could be wrong, but I think Hardy is already much farther along than that.
While I think people oversold Hardy as being a subpar athlete, on the spectrum of athlete versus skilled player, he's skewed far more towards the skilled side. Hardy's stroke is something that can keep him in the league for a long time. He might not jump out of the gym but he's smooth and comfortable with the ball.
(07-12-2022, 03:26 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]The thing with this is (and I could be wrong) that I don't think "having zero NBA skills" is Hardy's problem. I think it absolutely WAS DSJ's problem.
No idea why Hardy lasted until 37, but I'm telling you, when I watch him, he has the kind of off-the-dribble repertoire you expect from like a Jason Terry level guy. More, even. I don't think the turnovers are due to his handle, I think he's dribbling into three defenders needlessly.
It's a minor distinction, I know. Maybe it's just semantics. But to me, I think he's already GOT the skills and he's onto stage 2: how to apply them. DSJ had very little when he was here. If his first attempt at a straight line drive (always with the right) didn't work, he was just a deer in headlights. Could be wrong, but I think Hardy is already much farther along than that.
I shared an article on discord the other day that had a Hardy comp of Buddy Hield. It was the first I'd seen the comparison (probably because I didn't follow the draft this year). My thoughts then and now, after watching him for the first time in Summer League, is that it's a really good comp. Obviously it would be a homerun if Hardy ever reaches that level but I see him at worst being someone that can play in the NBA as a shooter/scorer. If he has a Bo Cruz like workout plan, he'll be a star in no time!
(07-12-2022, 03:34 PM)Smitty Wrote: [ -> ]I shared an article on discord the other day that had a Hardy comp of Buddy Hield. It was the first I'd seen the comparison (probably because I didn't follow the draft this year). My thoughts then and now, after watching him for the first time in Summer League, is that it's a really good comp. Obviously it would be a homerun if Hardy ever reaches that level but I see him at worst being someone that can play in the NBA as a shooter/scorer. If he has a Bo Cruz like workout plan, he'll be a star in no time!
That's honestly what I see except I compared him more to THJ. He definitely had some THJ shot selection moments last night. THJ's a more explosive athlete but I think Hardy looks more comfortable with the ball in his hand than either THJ or Buddy Love. That could change when the competition level rises of course.