(06-23-2021, 06:56 AM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: [ -> ]As they say, it is an upgrade-game. At the end of the day, is all of this an upgrade? We don't know yet. Better soft skills and worse X's and O's from Mosley could be an upgrade. A more clearly defined hierarchy and youthful energy might supersede Donnie's vast experience. Maybe not. I'm at least willing to wait for the actual announcements.
But, in the end, it all comes down to 0. Owner: Mark. I don't buy the criticism that "he's not a basketball guy". After 21 years of this, he's a basketball guy. The question is whether he's a good one or not. If he's going to make all major decisions, then quit hiding behind this veil of secrecy about how decisions are made. Man up and take responsibility for the good and the bad. I think being the money guy and the vision/strategy guy and the spreadsheet guy and a fan and the person through whom most media inquiries flow directly is self limiting.
My hope in all of this is Cuban upgrades himself by narrowing his role to whatever he's best at and hires the rest of it out. I have serious doubts as to whether vision/strategy guy is the right answer. He appears to hold to certain philosophies that haven't been productive. Undervaluing the draft and this constant pursuit of Sammie Superstar is killing us. Singles and doubles would be much better than striking out because you are trying so hard to exclusively hit home runs. Where would we be if someone had convinced him that we should actually use resources the last two summers rather than chase Giannis (hint...probably still playing). Atlanta and Phoenix are still playing and we are not partially because we kept our powder dry while they went out and got Paul and Crowder and Gallinari and Bogdanovic and Lou Williams and Torrey Craig to supplement the core that was already there. That isn't just a failing on Donnie's part. It is a failing of vision and strategy. The madness has to stop.
This is the argument I used against I think a KL doom and gloom post (always good to feel like I am on the same side as you in any argument, always feels like a win when that happens!). It’s for sure a hope for the best while facing what looks like pretty much no change from the real guy in charge. An optimistic way of thinking about it while keeping the thought in the back of your mind that this could also just be same as it ever was (love Talking Heads).
My head keeps pulling me away from wanting to be optimistic in this decision based on the reports of the day. I feel like this new hire is basically what they tried to do with Gerson Rosas, but basically with the twist that there won’t be a guy like Donnie to throw his weight around to make the new guy feel uncomfortable in his position.
We’ll see how this goes. Just really hoping for the best, but expecting the worst (are you gonna drop the bomb or not…ooh Alphaville, you are my little gentleman).
(06-22-2021, 11:55 PM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]Good stuff. This is really what I have been trying to get at. Appreciate you taking the time to articulate it so well.
Where you and I diverge is on Voulgaris. I am not convinced he is the cancer that he has been painted to be. No question the reporting speaks to him being a terrible people person, but I am not convinced one bit that he is the source of the dysfunction. I still think much of that could (not certain) have come from Donnie and RC. So I am still "wait and see" on Voulgaris. And I think Cuban would be really smart to KEEP him and HIDE him if he is actually good at his analytics side of things. Only Cuban really knows what Voulgaris has been suggesting over these years, and maybe most of his suggestions have been gold, but others have been sabotaging them.
I think all these folks, Fin/Coach Mos/Bob all have to go. So in that respect I disagree with both you and Tyler.
Both of you make great points. My take is this. What we have learned over the last week or so is how much dysfunction exists in this organization. Keeping a lot of the old guards while bringing on a GM and asking him to do his job, is IMO rehashing what has not worked for a decade.
So Bob still would have Cuban’s ears. Coach Mos would know he was Cuban’s hire and not the GM’s Both can make it difficult for the GM to implement his vision even if they mean well
We cannot have this dysfunction anymore. I am sorry. Yes every owner has final say in things. I am fine with that. You need a coach. You need a nerd analytics guy. Yes. However hire the GM (cannot be an internal hire) and let the GM hire all those folks so that everyone other than the GM knows clearly that they report to the GM. The GM in turn is accountable to Cuban. That IMO is the only way to go forward from this decade long mess.
(06-23-2021, 08:21 AM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]This is the argument I used against I think a KL doom and gloom post
Read it again. Dan's thoughts are the same as mine. I agree with everything.
(06-23-2021, 06:56 AM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: [ -> ]My hope in all of this is Cuban upgrades himself by narrowing his role to whatever he's best at and hires the rest of it out. I have serious doubts as to whether vision/strategy guy is the right answer. He appears to hold to certain philosophies that haven't been productive. Undervaluing the draft and this constant pursuit of Sammie Superstar is killing us. Singles and doubles would be much better than striking out because you are trying so hard to exclusively hit home runs. Where would we be if someone had convinced him that we should actually use resources the last two summers rather than chase Giannis (hint...probably still playing). Atlanta and Phoenix are still playing and we are not partially because we kept our powder dry while they went out and got Paul and Crowder and Gallinari and Bogdanovic and Lou Williams and Torrey Craig to supplement the core that was already there. That isn't just a failing on Donnie's part. It is a failing of vision and strategy. The madness has to stop.
See, @"ItsGoTime"? This is EVERYONE'S hope. Does anyone expect it to happen?
(06-22-2021, 11:55 PM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]Good stuff. This is really what I have been trying to get at. Appreciate you taking the time to articulate it so well.
Where you and I diverge is on Voulgaris. I am not convinced he is the cancer that he has been painted to be. No question the reporting speaks to him being a terrible people person, but I am not convinced one bit that he is the source of the dysfunction. I still think much of that could (not certain) have come from Donnie and RC. So I am still "wait and see" on Voulgaris. And I think Cuban would be really smart to KEEP him and HIDE him if he is actually good at his analytics side of things. Only Cuban really knows what Voulgaris has been suggesting over these years, and maybe most of his suggestions have been gold, but others have been sabotaging them.
Don't think it is possible any more to "hide" Voulgaris. Seems like that cat is out of the bag and I doubt there is any way to put it back in. I don't know whether he is the source of the dysfunction or just a symptom, but what does seem to be the case is that he as alienated just about everyone in that organization (way too much smoke for this not to be true) including Luka. I seriously doubt his genius that gave us the Wright trade and the Green pick is so necessary to the organization it would be worth keeping him on.
(06-23-2021, 08:21 AM)hakeemfaan Wrote: [ -> ]I think all these folks, Fin/Coach Mos/Bob all have to go. So in that respect I disagree with both you and Tyler.
Both of you make great points. My take is this. What we have learned over the last week or so is how much dysfunction exists in this organization. Keeping a lot of the old guards while bringing on a GM and asking him to do his job, is IMO rehashing what has not worked for a decade.
So Bob still would have Cuban’s ears. Coach Mos would know he was Cuban’s hire and not the GM’s Both can make it difficult for the GM to implement his vision even if they mean well
We cannot have this dysfunction anymore. I am sorry. Yes every owner has final say in things. I am fine with that. You need a coach. You need a nerd analytics guy. Yes. However hire the GM (cannot be an internal hire) and let the GM hire all those folks so that everyone other than the GM knows clearly that they report to the GM. The GM in turn is accountable to Cuban. That IMO is the only way to go forward from this decade long mess.
This. And it´s not like any of the internal options are young and upcoming stars. Finley has been vice president of basketball operation for nearly eight years. We cannot act like he wasn´t a part of the decision making in the last couple of years.
Same for Mosley but to a lesser degree. We aren´t talking about a young and innovative newcomer like Stevens. Mosley has been around the league for more than 15 years. From Denver, to Cleveland, to Dallas. 20/21 was his seventh season with the Mavs. He is well liked among players but hasn´t been able to secure a head coaching job.
(06-23-2021, 09:09 AM)dirkfansince1998 Wrote: [ -> ]He is well liked among players
And this is actually the part I am kind of affraid of
Can anyone tell me why the team and organizations personnel hate Bob so much?
I have read the past weeks discussions on this cat but dont really have a good understanding of what he has done.
The guy might not be a people person...but what is he doing that others dont like so much? I am only reading that he is a cancer but there doesnt seem to be a lot backing up what he is doing. OK...Luka barked at him in the heat of the moment. Luka was upset that the game was going badly...Bob told him to calm down...Luka said "STFU". Not that big of a deal. Luka asked Rick who was in charge "Bob or you"....Luka probably frustrated with the lack of clear understanding of whos making the calls. Is that Bob's fault or Marks?
Is this guy so much of a Robot that he came in and just crunches numbers and then tells people this is the new way to do your job and walks off? The employee baffled and frustrated...hates Bob now?
Does he hit on these guys Girlfriends? Does give off the impression that he is better than everyone?
Apparently Bob doesnt need to food, water, sleep, affection....just crunches numbers and pisses people off. I cant buy this until someone tells me what hes doing so wrong.
The Cato article that came out seems to target this guy. Is it because Donnie and Rick were comfortable and disliked Mark hiring this guy a few years ago who came in and was trying to make changes? Changes that a lot of people on here seem to have wanted for some time now. Changes are going to upset some people.
What I question about the Luka hating Bob angle is...it is along the same lines as that Mavs tweet that came out yesterday that read "Nowitzkis favorite former teammate"....just seems very manipulative. Get everyone to think Luka hates Bob. Get everyone to think a possibly Finley hire is good because its Nowitzkis favorite former teammate.
(06-23-2021, 08:25 AM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]Read it again. Dan's thoughts are the same as mine. I agree with everything.
See, @"ItsGoTime"? This is EVERYONE'S hope. Does anyone expect it to happen?
Sure, taking his hopes out of the whole post, his hopes are the same as most everyone's hopes (mine and yours included). When you look at the rest of the post, basically where he believes this thing is most likely going (or at the very least, might be going) he says:
"As they say, it is an upgrade-game. At the end of the day, is all of this an upgrade? We don't know yet. Better soft skills and worse X's and O's from Mosley could be an upgrade. A more clearly defined hierarchy and youthful energy might supersede Donnie's vast experience. Maybe not. I'm at least willing to wait for the actual announcements."
My logic says that's about as optimistic as you can get with the current news we have. It also could turn out to be true. I think I'm going to go back to my wait and see approach, I'll give them as much rope as to wait for training camp and see what moves they have made (or not made) then decide whether or not they get more rope to see how this goes to the TDL.
Honestly, there is a chance that MC (in the short term) allows the new guys to get their say in their collective wants because he wants a bit less heat on himself, or just wants to sit back and evaluate to make sure they work well together. However, once the direction isn't going the way he thinks it should, or a decision or two turns out to be horrible, he'll be right back to where he is now. Instead of just firing a person over making horrible decisions, he inserts himself to "right the ship". That in turn creates the dysfunction we've come to know was there.
(06-23-2021, 09:14 AM)dynamicalVoid Wrote: [ -> ]Can anyone tell me why the team and organizations personnel hate Bob so much?
I have read the past weeks discussions on this cat but dont really have a good understanding of what he has done.
The guy might not be a people person...but what is he doing that others dont like so much? I am only reading that he is a cancer but there doesnt seem to be a lot backing up what he is doing. OK...Luka barked at him in the heat of the moment. Luka was upset that the game was going badly...Bob told him to calm down...Luka said "STFU". Not that big of a deal. Luka asked Rick who was in charge "Bob or you"....Luka probably frustrated with the lack of clear understanding of whos making the calls. Is that Bob's fault or Marks?
Is this guy so much of a Robot that he came in and just crunches numbers and then tells people this is the new way to do your job and walks off? The employee baffled and frustrated...hates Bob now?
Does he hit on these guys Girlfriends? Does give off the impression that he is better than everyone?
Apparently Bob doesnt need to food, water, sleep, affection....just crunches numbers and pisses people off. I cant buy this until someone tells me what hes doing so wrong.
The Cato article that came out seems to target this guy. Is it because Donnie and Rick were comfortable and disliked Mark hiring this guy a few years ago who came in and was trying to make changes? Changes that a lot of people on here seem to have wanted for some time now. Changes are going to upset some people.
What I question about the Luka hating Bob angle is...it is along the same lines as that Mavs tweet that came out yesterday that read "Nowitzkis favorite former teammate"....just seems very manipulative. Get everyone to think Luka hates Bob. Get everyone to think a possibly Finley hire is good because its Nowitzkis favorite former teammate.
Unless it is an Isaiah Thomas sex scandal type thing, I can't think of a single report throughout my history of watching the NBA where the kind of specifics you're asking for came out. I don't think that's gonna change.
Now, maybe Bob just really hated the way Donnie and RC tried to throw their weight around when he was hired, and he was the guy that pushed back, and then won the argument with the owner. That in turn made the duo poison the well for Bob around the office, so then everyone is looking for reasons to hate the guy.
In that instance, it's still the right thing to do, if you're gonna keep all the other personnel, to let Bob go. I mean, if everyone is still going look for the bad in him, there is no reason to keep him. Just be done with that chapter and move on. He can't be the only analytics guy around that can decide that Green is better than Bey.
(06-23-2021, 09:32 AM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]Unless it is an Isaiah Thomas sex scandal type thing, I can't think of a single report throughout my history of watching the NBA where the kind of specifics you're asking for came out. I don't think that's gonna change.
Now, maybe Bob just really hated the way Donnie and RC tried to throw their weight around when he was hired, and he was the guy that pushed back, and then won the argument with the owner. That in turn made the duo poison the well for Bob around the office, so then everyone is looking for reasons to hate the guy.
In that instance, it's still the right thing to do, if you're gonna keep all the other personnel, to let Bob go. I mean, if everyone is still going look for the bad in him, there is no reason to keep him. Just be done with that chapter and move on. He can't be the only analytics guy around that can decide that Green is better than Bey.
Ok ok...I forgot about him POSSIBLY calling the shots on draft night and pissing scouts off. Thats a valid argument if true. Even more valid if he didnt consult with any scouts on the pick and made it anyway....which I highly doubt but still very possibly. I just dont think it was Bob calling the shots on Green over Bey....I think it was Mark.
On that example though...everyone makes mistakes....even at the top level. Maybe his decisions the last 2 years as a whole have been awful. Do we know that Rick allowed Bob's strategy to be fully implemented?
(06-23-2021, 09:53 AM)dynamicalVoid Wrote: [ -> ]Ok ok...I forgot about him POSSIBLY calling the shots on draft night and pissing scouts off. Thats a valid argument if true. Even more valid if he didnt consult with any scouts on the pick and made it anyway....which I highly doubt but still very possibly. I just dont think it was Bob calling the shots on Green over Bey....I think it was Mark.
On that example though...everyone makes mistakes....even at the top level. Maybe his decisions the last 2 years as a whole have been awful. Do we know that Rick allowed Bob's strategy to be fully implemented?
To me, it isn’t about the mistakes, it’s about the highly likely poisoned well and that there are so many good analytics guys out there.
(06-23-2021, 09:21 AM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]Sure, taking his hopes out of the whole post, his hopes are the same as most everyone's hopes (mine and yours included). When you look at the rest of the post, basically where he believes this thing is most likely going (or at the very least, might be going) he says:
"As they say, it is an upgrade-game. At the end of the day, is all of this an upgrade? We don't know yet. Better soft skills and worse X's and O's from Mosley could be an upgrade. A more clearly defined hierarchy and youthful energy might supersede Donnie's vast experience. Maybe not. I'm at least willing to wait for the actual announcements."
My logic says that's about as optimistic as you can get with the current news we have. It also could turn out to be true. I think I'm going to go back to my wait and see approach, I'll give them as much rope as to wait for training camp and see what moves they have made (or not made) then decide whether or not they get more rope to see how this goes to the TDL.
Honestly, there is a chance that MC (in the short term) allows the new guys to get their say in their collective wants because he wants a bit less heat on himself, or just wants to sit back and evaluate to make sure they work well together. However, once the direction isn't going the way he thinks it should, or a decision or two turns out to be horrible, he'll be right back to where he is now. Instead of just firing a person over making horrible decisions, he inserts himself to "right the ship". That in turn creates the dysfunction we've come to know was there.
To be honest I think the headcoach is the least important person at the moment.
I agree there is a likely trade-off between worse X´s and O´s vs. better team chemistry/workplace environment. To be honest I felt that Carlisle´s free-flowing offense always insiniuated more than it was. Free-flowing always sounds so cool, innovative and players can express themselves, but I always found the playbook limited, rigid, lazy and roleplayers could hardly ever express themselves. Now we can argue whether that was a problem of skill or opportunity, probably a little of both.
Anyway back to the orginial point: The new head coach can certainly make some strategic adjustments that Cuban likely won´t interfer with like finding more space for younger players in the regular season for example. Not trying to maximize every line-up to 100%, but rather sometimes only play at 80-85% capacity to invest in the development of young players for future gains. Can nobody tell me that, if the tanking Thunder or Pistons play starting fives with less than 200 NBA games experience combined, you need to run out your full veteran crew for 48 minutes and can´t find 20 minutes for Green, Terry or Bey.
If you can´t win those games regularly, then your overall squad level is not good enough to compete for a championship anyway.
While this is all good and necessary, it won´t change the fundamental problem how we think about the draft, about asset management, about how to build a team around Luka, how to acquire talent. So obviously you want a good coach over a bad coach, but we already had an above average coach and he could never sniff the 2nd round in the last 10 years.
The way things stand right now Bob might actually be our best hope. While I think his ability to match his advanced data with eyetest evaluation is lacking (see Josh Green or Delon Wright), I´m somewhat hopeful that he can at least provide some modern ideas on how to run an NBA franchise stragetically. Now we´d only need an eyetest and people´s GM to combine their strengths.
For me everything is still about time. If you want an empowered GM he needs time to select coach and execute trade/draft/FA strategy for next season. Now there is a possibility you basically run it back (because there is no time this summer) with minor changes for exception money and start moves at TDL. But if "old boys" plan to execute the "big summer" plan and then hire the new GM, it means he is a puppet. Only a voice able to express opinion which will be listened to and accepted or not.
(06-23-2021, 10:10 AM)Mavs2021 Wrote: [ -> ]To be honest I think the headcoach is the least important person at the moment.
I agree there is a likely trade-off between worse X´s and O´s vs. better team chemistry/workplace environment. To be honest I felt that Carlisle´s free-flowing offense always insiniuated more than it was. Free-flowing always sounds so cool, innovative and players can express themselves, but I always found the playbook limited, rigid, lazy and roleplayers could hardly ever express themselves. Now we can argue whether that was a problem of skill or opportunity, probably a little of both.
Anyway back to the orginial point: The new head coach can certainly make some strategic adjustments that Cuban likely won´t interfer with like finding more space for younger players in the regular season for example. Not trying to maximize every line-up to 100%, but rather sometimes only play at 80-85% capacity to invest in the development of young players for future gains. Can nobody tell me that, if the tanking Thunder or Pistons play starting fives with less than 200 NBA games experience combined, you need to run out your full veteran crew for 48 minutes and can´t find 20 minutes for Green, Terry or Bey.
If you can´t win those games regularly, then your overall squad level is not good enough to compete for a championship anyway.
While this is all good and necessary, it won´t change the fundamental problem how we think about the draft, about asset management, about how to build a team around Luka, how to acquire talent. So obviously you want a good coach over a bad coach, but we already had an above average coach and he could never sniff the 2nd round in the last 10 years.
The way things stand right now Bob might actually be our best hope. While I think his ability to match his advanced data with eyetest evaluation is lacking (see Josh Green or Delon Wright), I´m somewhat hopeful that he can at least provide some modern ideas on how to run an NBA franchise stragetically. Now we´d only need an eyetest and people´s GM to combine their strengths.
The quote was about more than the coach though. Putting fresh perspective on this team (GM and coaching) is the only hope I can attach to at this point.
(06-23-2021, 10:21 AM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ]For me everything is still about time. If you want an empowered GM he needs time to select coach and execute trade/draft/FA strategy for next season. Now there is a possibility you basically run it back (because there is no time this summer) with minor changes for exception money and start moves at TDL. But if "old boys" plan to execute the "big summer" plan and then hire the new GM, it means he is a puppet. Only a voice able to express opinion which will be listened to and accepted or not.
I think this
may be true, but it doesn’t
have to be true. I mean, how long does it take for all the decision makers to get together and figure out the needs and wants (skill-wise) for the team. That can also be a part of the interview process. Once that is decided on, they would most assuredly have a list of the known quantities throughout the league, then it comes down to projections of who might be able to fit those skillsets.
I feel like some of that could happen in about a week to be prepared for the draft. Sure there might be some fly by the seat of your pants decisions to make, but that comes with the territory of jumping on breaking news for all FOs.
(06-23-2021, 10:50 AM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]I think this may be true, but it doesn’t have to be true. I mean, how long does it take for all the decision makers to get together and figure out the needs and wants (skill-wise) for the team. That can also be a part of the interview process. Once that is decided on, they would most assuredly have a list of the known quantities throughout the league, then it comes down to projections of who might be able to fit those skillsets.
I feel like some of that could happen in about a week to be prepared for the draft. Sure there might be some fly by the seat of your pants decisions to make, but that comes with the territory of jumping on breaking news for all FOs.
Potential GM: So NBA, so what does this B stand for? Basketball, Badminton, Boxing, Beach-Volleyball?
Cuban: Let´s not ask questions like that. Pssst, Michael look it up.
@"KillerLeft", did you hear Jake just now? He's right.
(06-23-2021, 01:11 PM)fifteenth Wrote: [ -> ]@"KillerLeft", did you hear Jake just now? He's right.
From the Ticket? What he say?
(06-23-2021, 01:18 PM)mvossman Wrote: [ -> ]From the Ticket? What he say?
Jake (paraphrase): The Stein and Townsend articles yesterday confirm that Mark is and will be THE decision maker regarding basketball (on court) transactions.
We all sorta knew this before but didn't KNOW it.
This is Cuban pushing in his chips on his organization structure at a more consequential moment than even 2012.
This move (keeping the status quo), and whether it works or not will determine whether Luka resigns in 5 years and what the org/fan relationship will be going forward.
It just lines up with what many have been saying. I think I saw in this upheavel an opportunity for Mark to change course and hire an expert. Instead he's doubling down on his own ability to put together a basketball team. And the consequences this time will be huge (for good or bad). I'm not predicting failure, and I still hope for good, but it will be based on Mark's ability to make good basketball decisions, picks, signings and trades.
So here we go. We'll see.