MavsBoard

(06-16-2021, 10:50 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]Absolutely, and if our reading between the lines over the past few days is anything close to accurate, it seems like what you're describing is pretty much the exact situation that Donnie couldn't stomach, and what ultimately led to him either leaving or being dismissed. I'm not saying it can't work, but they'd have to find someone pretty weak to pull that off. Someone who would NEVER get it into their head that they aren't being taken seriously. 

For some reason, my mind went right to Elton Brand and Daryl Morey. 

I think my preference (and hope) is that they bring in some huge name with crazy swag like Ujiri who would clean house. Someone by whom even Cuban would be low-key intimidated.

Bingo. Glad you connected those dots, because that is what I was alluding to. 

I think Donnie could not stomach no longer being the actual evaluator and decider on stuff and was resisting any surrender of that power to someone like Voulgaris. 

Finley on the other hand.....shoot, I think he could excel at that role if that is his desire. 

The key is everyone needs to "know their lane" and stay in it.

(06-16-2021, 11:03 PM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]The key is everyone needs to "know their lane" and stay in it.

Yeah, that's probably the key no matter which path is chosen from here. 

Personally, I want to see someone other than Mark Cuban be the guy at the top. I know the owner will always have the final say, but I'm (pointlessly, probs) hoping for someone to enter the scene who has the cred to tell Cuban "that's a ridiculous idea."

I'm more than ok with Cuban vetoing things for financial reasons - it's HIS money. I want a hierarchy in place wherein someone else is the final say on things like talent, system, on-court fit, etc, etc, etc. My guess is that we both want that.

Finley is the obvious choice, but we'll  see. He's been under Cuban learning the business for a while now.

(06-16-2021, 11:03 PM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]Bingo. Glad you connected those dots, because that is what I was alluding to. 

I think Donnie could not stomach no longer being the actual evaluator and decider on stuff and was resisting any surrender of that power to someone like Voulgaris. 

Finley on the other hand.....shoot, I think he could excel at that role if that is his desire. 

The key is everyone needs to "know their lane" and stay in it.

Two things: 1) Why would Finley want the "lane" of being a puppet? 2) The person who most needs to "know his lane" is Cuban.

My current read of the situation (which can change with more info):

1. Voulgaris probably really is functionally autistic in that he's great with numbers and terrible with people. It's entirely predictable with people of his skillset.
2. Donnie didn't take well to Voulgaris, although the core issue is likely more about analytics than personality. He's old-school, and eventually it boiled over.
3. Cuban seems to recognize that 1 and 2 are both problems in a modern basketball organization. 
4. He fired Donnie to hire a GM who shares his appreciation for analytics in basketball decisions.
5. (My strong suspicion >) Once the right GM is in place, Voulgaris will be formally relieved of his basketball duties to focus full time on crypto.

Power through the drama, and in the end I think the end result can be very positive for Dallas in the long run.

Hopefully analytics isn't the driving force for the new GM.  Yes, it is important and should be a tool in the utility belt, but of far more importance is someone who can recruit and sell a vision to players/agents, who can build a scouting department and improve the teams drafting (a blindfolded, drunken monkey throwing darts at a dart board couldn't do much worse) and a wheeler and dealer to be able to pull of trades (KP is probably going to be a good first test).  I just don't think Finley has the experience for it.  Whoever takes this job has Luka, Brunson, DFS and Maxi and then 10 or so years of squandered or failed asset management to dig out of.

(06-16-2021, 10:42 PM)ClutchDirk Wrote: [ -> ]The new GM should also be good at tampering instead of waiting for FA to start...

I am laughing SO hard at this! I love it so much!

Mavs talked in last six minutes or so. Masai is mentioned as an idea, also said there is really no better opportunity for him this year. Hollinger doesn't believe Cuban-Masai would work because Cuban. They don't see internal candidate, had really hard time remembering who is even there in Mavs FO mentioning it was weak as it is. Didn't remember Finley at all, mentioned some other names. But yeah, conclusion about internal - not really much to look at. It was recorded earlier in the day so not including latest news

https://dcs.megaphone.fm/LKN1330046015.m...772d3df91e

I find it really hard to believe Voulgaris is some kind of irreplaceable super-genius. Seems more like he's just Mark's buddy with a similarly abrasive personality.

The Mavs need a GM who will be respected, who has relationships with agents and GMs around the league and won't just be viewed as a weak puppet. On the analytics side he just needs to be willing to listen to the numbers nerds, but we don't need to pretend a single gambling douche is a priceless resource.

I find it hard to believe Finley would have any more respect than Donnie did, and honestly I suspect that rumor is coming from the Donnie people who are still in the F.O.

Forgot another bit from Duncan and Hollinger - they think Voulgaris-Luka alleged rift is overblown, unless Voulgaris was a constant presence at practice, games, locker room... They think a single event like "shut the f*** up" one is nothing.

(06-16-2021, 10:50 PM)SleepingHero Wrote: [ -> ]Not really because why would Finley sign up for that job if he's looking to be an actual general manager?

Cause nobody else would hire Michael Finley for even an assistant GM role (I strongly assume).

I am by no means a FO strucuture expert, but after 24 years of Donnie Nelson and 20 years of Cuban, I have never heard of a Mavs FO member/tree that branched out to other franchises like all these Ujiri or Morey employees. I doubt working in that capacity for the Mavs is a career-maker.

(06-17-2021, 03:43 AM)Branduil Wrote: [ -> ]I find it really hard to believe Voulgaris is some kind of irreplaceable super-genius. Seems more like he's just Mark's buddy with a similarly abrasive personality.

The Mavs need a GM who will be respected, who has relationships with agents and GMs around the league and won't just be viewed as a weak puppet. On the analytics side he just needs to be willing to listen to the numbers nerds, but we don't need to pretend a single gambling douche is a priceless resource.

I find it hard to believe Finley would have any more respect than Donnie did.

Should be pinned at the start of the thread. 100% accuracy in all points.

(06-16-2021, 11:59 PM)Tyler Wrote: [ -> ]My current read of the situation (which can change with more info):

1. Voulgaris probably really is functionally autistic in that he's great with numbers and terrible with people. It's entirely predictable with people of his skillset.
2. Donnie didn't take well to Voulgaris, although the core issue is likely more about analytics than personality. He's old-school, and eventually it boiled over.
3. Cuban seems to recognize that 1 and 2 are both problems in a modern basketball organization. 
4. He fired Donnie to hire a GM who shares his appreciation for analytics in basketball decisions.
5. (My strong suspicion >) Once the right GM is in place, Voulgaris will be formally relieved of his basketball duties to focus full time on crypto.

Power through the drama, and in the end I think the end result can be very positive for Dallas in the long run.

I think there have long been rumblings around Dallas media who have sources close to the Mavs that Green wasn't the scouting department's choice for the picks, most likely it was Voulgaris and the analytics department.  Donnie is probably thinking if he is the supposed  "GM" and can't even make the draft picks, what is he even doing here?    It's one thing for the owner, as the guy who cuts the checks,  overrule you on drafting Giannis, but now you're being overruled an the abrasive head of the analytics department.    Plus he lost his right hand man in the front office in Tony Ronzone a few months ago.    Can't fight a front office battle if you don't even have your top general.

This may well be true but I am still proud of Finley, Blackmon, and someday Dwight Powell for having significant business success ?

I am glad for a fresh start and I hope it is someone outside the organization.  Time will tell if it is better or if it winds up being worse. 

Donnie was a mixed bag for me.    He was brilliant at times and other times not.   Some of the things that bothered me about Donnie were minor.  Such as, the fun part of being a GM should be looking under every rock for hidden talent.   I don't want to say he was lazy, because that may be unfair.   We never got a lot of info who we would workout prior to the draft, but it certainly felt like we didn't take it as seriously as some teams do.   My thought process is no matter where we are picking, there is a really good player who is available who is hiding.   It is your job to find him.    I think that should be the fun part, not dealing with agents or the 100 of other things GM's do.   

Second, I never understood why we never put much focus into our G-League team.   Finding NBA talent that way is a long shot, but I always like teams like the Rockets would bring interesting players in and see if any pop.  If not, you move on.   It felt like we never really put any focus into our G League team.   Even when we were bad.    Especially when we were bad, I would have put more energy of getting a good G- League team and maybe you find one player throughout that process.   I believe Donnie owned the G-League team which made his indifference even more confusing.  

One more thing, the whole he wanted Giannis storyline always bothered me.  There are several layers of him saying Giannis could be the best player in the draft.  Was it an off the hand comment with little force behind it?   Was it a pound the table moment of him saying this guy may be the best player in the class and I will stake my reputation on it?   Could you have found a way to draft Giannis while also finding another way to save money for Cuban?   Like it or not, a GM answers to people higher than him.   But he needs to sell his vision to his higher ups.    There has been a few times where it looks like Donnie was not great selling his vision.   That is an important part of the job.

(06-17-2021, 03:43 AM)Branduil Wrote: [ -> ]I find it really hard to believe Voulgaris is some kind of irreplaceable super-genius. Seems more like he's just Mark's buddy with a similarly abrasive personality.

The Mavs need a GM who will be respected, who has relationships with agents and GMs around the league and won't just be viewed as a weak puppet. On the analytics side he just needs to be willing to listen to the numbers nerds, but we don't need to pretend a single gambling douche is a priceless resource.

I find it hard to believe Finley would have any more respect than Donnie did, and honestly I suspect that rumor is coming from the Donnie people who are still in the F.O.

Ultimately I look at the Heat organization as the ideal organizational set up.  They have a very robust analytics department, which is headed by Shane Battier.    I doubt Battier is in the basement writing Python script to build predictive machine learning models, but he has a lot of clout in the game and he's able to take his department's information and bring it to the table when decisions have to be made and make sure their voice is heard.      You have Spoelstra in charge of Xs and Os and on the court strategy.  Alonzo Mourning VP of Player Programs, who acts as the intermediary between the players and the front office and establishes organization culture.  Andy Elsburg as the General Manager, who has been there 32 years, who coordinates all the departments.   Then ultimately Riley as the "CEO" of the organization ... ultimate overseer and decision maker who sells the organization and the vision to players.   Everyone has their assigned lane, and they have the one head honcho at the top who makes sure it stays that way.    

Now compared to the Mavs mess of an organization where no one knows what the "GM" was really ultimately in charge of.  The analytics guy, a former professional gambler and twitter troll, is traveling with the team and in the lockerroom interacting directly with players and pissing off the star player.  The owner is making trades for guys like Rondo who the head coach doesn't want to coach and doesn't really seem to feel obligated to make it work.

(06-17-2021, 07:51 AM)HanspardsShowerVoice Wrote: [ -> ]  Then ultimately Riley as the "CEO" of the organization ... ultimate overseer and decision maker who sells the organization and the vision to players.   Everyone has their assigned lane, and they have the one head honcho at the top who makes sure it stays that way.    

Nice post.  I agree with what you wrote.   The above is the most important part imo.   When Riley walks in a room, he has clout.  I thought eventually Cuban could have this.  He certainly may have it in parts of his life, but I don't think it really carries over in basketball decisions.  Weird.  You would think Mr. Shark Tank would be able to sell his vision.  Riley sets the tone for Miami.   

It appears every offseason the Mavs are a moth chasing every light.    Maybe there is a more defined plan that we don't see but they certainly appear all over the map.  Some organizations may be able to flourish this way, and maybe the Mavs thought they could.   But I would prefer a more long term vision over being a moth attracted to lights.

(06-17-2021, 07:51 AM)HanspardsShowerVoice Wrote: [ -> ]...and owner is making trades for guys like Rondo who the head coach doesn't want to coach and doesn't really seem to feel obligated to make it work.

Also the core of our rookie development problem. If Carlisle rejects an NBA champion with significant trade value behind his acquisition, out of pure pettiness, then it´s not hard to figure out what fate a helpless puppy drafted 18th, 31st or 36th will suffer.

(06-17-2021, 08:04 AM)Mavs2021 Wrote: [ -> ]Also the core of our rookie development problem. If Carlisle rejects an NBA champion with significant trade value behind his acquisition, out of pure pettiness, then it´s not hard to figure out what fate a helpless puppy drafted 18th, 31st or 36th will suffer.

Some say we don’t have a rookie development problem. We have a draft problem.

Wow, great conversation last night. Just got caught up. Thanks guys!

One thought about Fin. I love Fin and hope he becaomes an NBA GM, if that's what he wants. But I don't think he's right for the Mavs job because the Mavs are not in the right place for a first time GM. The stakes are too high for the Mavs based on where they are in the team building process, with Luka in place and a highly important offseason at hand, for them to hire someone who needs to learn on the job. MF needs to land a job with a team ready to rebuild.