MavsBoard

(06-23-2021, 03:34 PM)F Gump Wrote: [ -> ]What about the MIA thing makes you think Cuban was NOT involved and in control?

The report was that there were two different conversations happening at once. Are you asserting that Cuban wanted there to be two distinct conversations with Heat brass talking with two different Mavs execs? That's a pretty bold claim, tbh.

(06-23-2021, 03:39 PM)cow Wrote: [ -> ]Always swinging for the fences and never making contact is going to get your butt sent to the minor leagues

Let's not forget, the Mavs regime didn't always strike out. And if you do swing hard and make contact you can win a title.

(06-23-2021, 03:40 PM)vfromlmf Wrote: [ -> ]Beg to differ. 

Home run: Shawn Marion trade to Mavs in complicated four-team trade

Home run: Mavs essentially paying $11 million and two first-round picks to trade Devin Harris for JKidd.

Home run: Mavs six-player trade getting Tyson Chandler back to Dallas

Home run: Antoine Walker for Jason Terry

There were other genius moves netting role players Peja, Brewer, Stevenson, Haywood etc. All contributed significantly.

Well, we're just playing semantics then. I'm not thinking of those as homeruns. I think of Nash, Luka and Dirk as homeruns. I think of the moves you list as necessary sinlges, double or tripples. But no need to argue about all that. 

The point is, and maybe you agree, is that we need some moves these days that add Marions, JETs, Kidds and Chandlers. I'll also point out that those moves were not plan powder moves. So if we're waiting around for plan powde HOMERUNS we aren't going to add the Marions, Jets, Kidds and Chandlers.  

Maybe you agree with all that and we're not even arguing.

(06-23-2021, 03:40 PM)fifteenth Wrote: [ -> ]1) His desire to be the decision maker means that the best GMs won't come here. This means that the experts that Cuban will rely on most likely won't be as good as the experts that won't come here.
2) His desire to be the decision maker means that he will ultimately make the decision. And I think that most likely he won't make decisions that are as good as the decisions that would be made by the experts that won't come here. 

Exactly. Under this conditions every GM, president, fieldmarshall, viceroy or whatever titles the employees have is in reality a consultant. Only under this conditions it is possible that a full time GM advice gets overruled by a current favorite consultant/friend. The ability to convince is more important than amount of work behind it. That's why no serious top guy will come work under this conditions. 

Instead of having a full time professional working his butt off day and night, Mavs have an owner who is invested in about 100 other things in his life, part timing as GM. There is absolutely no way this can lead to better results than a well run organization. All it can lead to is a struck of luck here and there, as evidenced. Even that prick Dolan in NY seemed to understand things have to change and gave some smart people control.

(06-23-2021, 03:44 PM)Scott41theMavs Wrote: [ -> ]The report was that there were two different conversations happening at once. Are you asserting that Cuban wanted there to be two distinct conversations with Heat brass talking with two different Mavs execs? That's a pretty bold claim, tbh.

My interpretation, based on recent reporting, is that Cuban's lack of role definition in his front office was the cause of the confusion with Miami. 

In fact, wasn't it Cato that said that teams were confused about who to even talk to in the Mavs FO?

(06-23-2021, 03:44 PM)Scott41theMavs Wrote: [ -> ]The report was that there were two different conversations happening at once. Are you asserting that Cuban wanted there to be two distinct conversations with Heat brass talking with two different Mavs execs? That's a pretty bold claim, tbh.

And who is responsible that something like that was even possible?

(06-23-2021, 03:45 PM)vfromlmf Wrote: [ -> ]Let's not forget, the Mavs regime didn't always strike out. And if you do swing hard and make contact you can win a title.

That was 10 years ago.  A lot of that regime is now gone now.  Swap Dirk and Luka from 2011 and 2021, tit for tat, there probably isn't a 2021 player you'd take over the 2011 roster.

(06-23-2021, 03:49 PM)fifteenth Wrote: [ -> ]My interpretation, based on recent reporting, is that Cuban's lack of role definition in his front office was the cause of the confusion with Miami. 

In fact, wasn't it Cato that said that teams were confused about who to even talk to in the Mavs FO?

You and Omahen are correct in your views. I wasn't complimenting Cuban. I was asserting that he was *out* of control in the situation, not *in* control of it as Gump seemed to me to be asserting. I don't think he wanted things to go down that way, but his confusion and dysfunction created it.

(06-23-2021, 03:45 PM)fifteenth Wrote: [ -> ]The point is, and maybe you agree, is that we need some moves these days that add Marions, JETs, Kidds and Chandlers.

Agree!! 

Yes, semantics, but c'mon man... Harris for JKidd was a homerun, right? I mean, you trade a young all star PG and picks for an old washed up veteran who quarterbacks his team to a championship. From the outside looking in that deal was a super risky swing for the fences move. At least give me that.

(06-23-2021, 03:57 PM)Scott41theMavs Wrote: [ -> ]You and Omahen are correct in your views. I wasn't complimenting Cuban. I was asserting that he was *out* of control in the situation, not *in* control of it as Gump seemed to me to be asserting. I don't think he wanted things to go down that way, but his confusion and dysfunction created it.

Oh, I see. Well, being in control doesn't mean you get the results you hope for. I've failed several tests where I was in complete control and then failed to succeed.

(06-23-2021, 03:40 PM)cow Wrote: [ -> ]Good point.  But my point still stands, even with a contract, if he wants out, where there is a will, there is a way.

Just ask James Harden. That contract doesn't guarantee anything but he's still going to getting paid.

(06-23-2021, 03:58 PM)vfromlmf Wrote: [ -> ]Agree!! 

Yes, semantics, but c'mon man... Harris for JKidd was a homerun, right? I mean, you trade a young all star PG and picks for an old washed up veteran who quarterbacks his team to a championship. From the outside looking in that deal was a super risky swing for the fences move. At least give me that.

If we define the terms first, then I'm happy with your definition of homerun. My responses were based on having a different definition in my head (plan powder style swing for the fences).

(06-23-2021, 03:44 PM)Scott41theMavs Wrote: [ -> ]The report was that there were two different conversations happening at once. Are you asserting that Cuban wanted there to be two distinct conversations with Heat brass talking with two different Mavs execs? That's a pretty bold claim, tbh.

Bad (or mistaken) process doesn't change the people involved and their roles.

I actually think Cuban's style of decision-making would make something like that MORE likely, not less, since he's coming to his decision using ideas, feedback, and other input from many people, who would each be trying to get it in their own way. And from what we have learned about Bob, the lines creating division of responsibility have been fuzzy, apparently overlapping, and perhaps even bizarre in Mavs World.

BTW, I was certainly not saying that setup is always executed according to plan or Cuban's intent, nor is the best way to work. (I'd much rather have the smartest NBA guy with the impeccable personal expertise and unmatched skills being the one asking for input, and evaluating it, with the buck stopping there.)

(06-23-2021, 03:36 PM)Tyler Wrote: [ -> ]Remember, the extension signed now kicks in AFTER next season. So assuming he signs, Dallas will have him locked up for 5 years with the 6th year as a (very likely) player option.

I think Luka signs a 3+1 player option deal. There is a significant difference between $10M on the QO and $200M guaranteed. Not so much difference between $160M and $200M guaranteed, especially when you can sign your next contract with any team you like, and against a much higher cap.

With only three guaranteed years (from the Mavs POV), Luka can start demanding a trade with 18 months left on his extension deal. So if my math is not completely off, we are talking about the TDL in March 2024, so a little less than three years from now.

Luka will be the best player in the league and if you think the rumours now are bad, wait if we are not in the WCF by 2023 and his contemporaries like Ayton, Young or JJJ are making deep runs. Not to speak of the national media and local media in LA, New York and Miami making their agenda driven push. They´ll be all: Hey Luka why you not winning, look at Trae Young. Is Luka a losing player? Can you win a championship with Luka? It will be just like the Giannis sweepstakes.

If Luka signs 3+1 that is a huge sign of not having trust in Mavs as organization. Huge L for Mavs. All top teams will start with "Luka to us" plans.

(06-23-2021, 03:58 PM)vfromlmf Wrote: [ -> ]Agree!! 

Yes, semantics, but c'mon man... Harris for JKidd was a homerun, right? I mean, you trade a young all star PG and picks for an old washed up veteran who quarterbacks his team to a championship. From the outside looking in that deal was a super risky swing for the fences move. At least give me that.

That particular move was made because Dirk was insisting on it. 

Not as a swing-for-the-fences analytics play.

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(06-23-2021, 04:26 PM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ]If Luka signs 3+1 that is a huge sign of not having trust in Mavs as organization. Huge L for Mavs. All top teams will start with "Luka to us" plans.

Actually, Dameris goes to great lengths to show that a 3+1 will not be a sign of distrust in the organization, but rather is simply the optimal deal as a contractual matter. He mentions that fans are likely to "freak" over it, but that they shouldn't. 

Maybe you're already familiar with the contractual analysis and don't buy it, in which case I would be interested in your considered thoughts on the matter.

Can Luka win a championship with MCuban as his GM? That is the question.

(06-23-2021, 04:30 PM)mavsluvr Wrote: [ -> ]Actually, Dameris goes to great lengths to show that a 3+1 will not be a sign of distrust in the organization, but rather is simply the optimal deal as a contractual matter. He mentions that fans are likely to "freak" over it, but that they shouldn't. 

Maybe you're already familiar with the contractual analysis and don't buy it, in which case I would be interested in your considered thoughts on the matter.

One can paint it as he wants, but shorter deal is putting more pressure on the organization. They control their star player one year less. Even if the reason is just financial optimization at this point.

Saw this and thought it appropriate for the current DAL situation...

(06-23-2021, 04:39 PM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ]One can paint it as he wants, but shorter deal is putting more pressure on the organization. They control their star player one year less. Even if the reason is just financial optimization at this point.

Totally agree. That's really the point. The team doesn't have time to mess around.