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Woohooo, a channel 21 game! I need more of those!

Not sure if this has been posted yet, but it's an article from Tim Cato on the Athletic about trade targets.

https://theathletic.com/1469365/2019/12/...ld-target/

For those who don't have the subscription:
Mostly says we should stand pat, basically like many here are saying to not mess up the chemistry. Most of the comments agree.

He has 4 trade pieces that he would trade if he can get the other team to bite on them:
THJ, Lee, JJ and Second rounders for the next 3 years (2 this year and ours for next and the following years). He's reluctant to add JJ, "But if Dallas must include a young asset in any deal they make, Jackson seems like the obvious candidate."

He then says:

Quote:[b][b]WHO DALLAS WOULDN’T TRADE[/b][/b]

I don’t think any other player on the roster makes sense as a trade candidate except maybe Jalen Brunson. And while Dallas wouldn’t do that under almost any circumstance, perhaps they would think differently if they were getting back, I don’t know, Jrue Holiday. Otherwise, every player either has too little value to other teams, too much value to Dallas or is on too team-friendly of a deal (or all three) to make sense.

He goes on to talk about 9 trade targets:
Andre Iguodala - Lee and a second at most for him. He won't stay, but would be good for a playoff run this year as a "savvier, more experienced version of DFS". 
RoCo - In terms of RoCo compared to DFS he has this to say: "He’s a better shooter with the same glue-guy qualities. I’m not sure that he’s significantly better, though, or that he dramatically raises your team ceiling. It very well might take Lee and Jackson, plus second-round picks, to get him to Dallas."
Rudy Gay - Can't happen til Jan 14th, but Lee and picks for him and this to say: "He’s hitting a career-worst 27 percent from deep for San Antonio, but that team’s spacing is horrid and he’s still a vicious defender."
Jae Crowder - For the same package as Iggy, Iggy is the better player.
CP3 and Adams - Doesn't like either of their fit. Esp Adams.
Gallinari - Fantastic fit, but unless OKC values THJ, we don't have the pieces to get him.
Love - No as well, but talks about the spacing this team would have with him and KP.
Jrue - Only player to blow it up for and use JB. Proposes THJ, JJ, JB and 2nds. NO is prob looking for a better return package but what if they asked for DW and JB, would you do it?

Finishes with why we should stay pat. Has this to say "Most of this roster has never even been to the playoffs before. You need that experience before you can put serious expectations upon them. I suspect any push-all-your-chips-in-right-now move would underwhelm and ultimately fail. But because your stars and, really, this entire roster is so young, why would you do that?"

(12-19-2019, 04:15 PM)ClutchDirk Wrote: [ -> ]https://twitter.com/espn_macmahon/status...5450329089

(12-19-2019, 04:20 PM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]

(12-19-2019, 04:15 PM)ClutchDirk Wrote: [ -> ]https://twitter.com/espn_macmahon/status...5450329089

Looks like JJB will get some burn next game for sure.

(12-19-2019, 04:19 PM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]Not sure if this has been posted yet, but it's an article from Tim Cato on the Athletic about trade targets.

https://theathletic.com/1469365/2019/12/...ld-target/

For those who don't have the subscription:
Mostly says we should stand pat, basically like many here are saying to not mess up the chemistry. Most of the comments agree.

He has 4 trade pieces that he would trade if he can get the other team to bite on them:
THJ, Lee, JJ and Second rounders for the next 3 years (2 this year and ours for next and the following years). He's reluctant to add JJ, "But if Dallas must include a young asset in any deal they make, Jackson seems like the obvious candidate."

He then says:

Quote:[b][b]WHO DALLAS WOULDN’T TRADE[/b][/b]

I don’t think any other player on the roster makes sense as a trade candidate except maybe Jalen Brunson. And while Dallas wouldn’t do that under almost any circumstance, perhaps they would think differently if they were getting back, I don’t know, Jrue Holiday. Otherwise, every player either has too little value to other teams, too much value to Dallas or is on too team-friendly of a deal (or all three) to make sense.

He goes on to talk about 9 trade targets:
Andre Iguodala - Lee and a second at most for him. He won't stay, but would be good for a playoff run this year as a "savvier, more experienced version of DFS".
RoCo - In terms of RoCo compared to DFS he has this to say: "He’s a better shooter with the same glue-guy qualities. I’m not sure that he’s significantly better, though, or that he dramatically raises your team ceiling. It very well might take Lee and Jackson, plus second-round picks, to get him to Dallas."
Rudy Gay - Can't happen til Jan 14th, but Lee and picks for him and this to say: "He’s hitting a career-worst 27 percent from deep for San Antonio, but that team’s spacing is horrid and he’s still a vicious defender."
Jae Crowder - For the same package as Iggy, Iggy is the better player.
CP3 and Adams - Doesn't like either of their fit. Esp Adams.
Gallinari - Fantastic fit, but unless OKC values THJ, we don't have the pieces to get him.
Love - No as well, but talks about the spacing this team would have with him and KP.
Jrue - Only player to blow it up for and use JB. Proposes THJ, JJ, JB and 2nds. NO is prob looking for a better return package but what if they asked for DW and JB, would you do it?

Finishes with why we should stay pat. Has this to say "Most of this roster has never even been to the playoffs before. You need that experience before you can put serious expectations upon them. I suspect any push-all-your-chips-in-right-now move would underwhelm and ultimately fail. But because your stars and, really, this entire roster is so young, why would you do that?"

The entire premise of this guy's piece is that Luka isn't ready. That makes me believe both that he doesn't know much about Luka's career history and also that he hasn't been watching many Mavs games this year.

If the Mavs had the right supporting cast - for example, if they could have landed Malcolm Brogdon and Derrick Favors this offseason - with this year's Luka, they would be bona fide contenders. Not saying they would win, but they would have a genuine chance. I understand what the guy is saying about chemistry. If I'm the Mavs, I think you ask Luka. "We get the sense you like these guys, and would like to continue to grow with them this year. We can see with our own eyes that you are an NBA championship leader right now, in early 2020. Are you content with staying the course this year and taking your best shot with these guys? Or would you be irritated if we didn't make the effort to trade some of your teammates to give you a somewhat more realistic shot at winning your first Larry this year? We want to make you happy. You're our guy."

If anyone thinks that that's the cart dragging the horse and that players shouldn't play GM, first of all, you weren't watching this offseason. Second, I think Luka has the humility not to do stupid stuff if you consult him like they consulted Dirk. The bottom line is that the single most important matter for this franchise for the foreseeable future - and yes, already, this early in Luka's rookie contract - is to keep Luka happy. WDLW? (what does Luka want)

(12-19-2019, 05:30 PM)Scott41theMavs Wrote: [ -> ]The entire premise of this guy's piece is that Luka isn't ready.

Can you post that quote for us?

(12-19-2019, 05:34 PM)fifteenth Wrote: [ -> ]

(12-19-2019, 05:30 PM)Scott41theMavs Wrote: [ -> ]The entire premise of this guy's piece is that Luka isn't ready.

Can you post that quote for us?

The last graph in the portion that IGT quoted says precisely that if you are interested in reading comprehension rather than gaslighting.

(12-19-2019, 05:44 PM)Scott41theMavs Wrote: [ -> ]The last graph in the portion that IGT quoted says precisely that if you are interested in reading comprehension rather than gaslighting.

(12-19-2019, 05:30 PM)Tim Cato Wrote: [ -> ]Finishes with why we should stay pat. Has this to say "Most of this roster has never even been to the playoffs before. You need that experience before you can put serious expectations upon them. I suspect any push-all-your-chips-in-right-now move would underwhelm and ultimately fail. But because your stars and, really, this entire roster is so young, why would you do that?"

I don't know what you're talking about with the "gaslighting" stuff. If I'm off base with how I present my disagreement with you on these matters then let know how.

Regarding basketball talk, I don't see how that last paragraph says anything about Luka not being ready. I don't know what his playoff learning curve will be like. It'll be fun to see. But I don't see Cato addressing that at all.

(12-19-2019, 05:34 PM)fifteenth Wrote: [ -> ]

(12-19-2019, 05:30 PM)Scott41theMavs Wrote: [ -> ]The entire premise of this guy's piece is that Luka isn't ready.

Can you post that quote for us?

There is no such quote, although he does say that this is a transition year, even for Luka, dealing with the "burden" of being an MVP candidate and maintaining his form and consistency for a whole season. 

For those who don't know, Tim Cato used to be with Mavs Moneyball, and I guess now writes for the Athletic. He can be seen and heard from at some of Rick's postgame pressers. 

Tim seems like a good dude, and no disrespect to him, but this is pretty much a fluff piece. It's interesting to discuss, but this isn't based on sourcing or GM/agent type expertise. Basically, a writer/fan throwing out some ideas. 

I don't necessarily disagree with him in some respects. I don't know if there is any history of an NBA team consisting mostly of guys who have never been to the NBA playoffs at all making any kind of a run there. The closest thing I can remember is the Thunder when they went to the playoffs for the first time. That is a very different experience from the regular season, and I don't think the Mavs are going to sacrifice any significant long-term asset to get a piece that makes them better now, but isn't part of the long-term plan, on the theory that they are contenders now. 

Pretty much any trade consisting of Courtney Lee and a non-GSW second round pick is a low-risk deal, assuming they're not taking on salary past the 20-21 season. They would just be giving up a guy who never plays and a pick that is unlikely to turn into a valuable player, or to be of much value in the trade market, so whatever they get is gravy. 

As far as other guys, I don't think any of the players not named KP or Luka is untouchable, but I would be surprised if the Mavs are willing to sacrifice the future for the present in hopes of making some kind of deep run this season. There is almost no one who is realistically available in-season who would be the kind of game-changer that could get them to that point in that short a time. I realize that Scott doesn't agree with that. I am just trying to assess how the Mavs are likely to see it. Maybe they'll surprise us, who knows?

I would imagine the team is keeping Luka apprised of the plans. And I agree with Scott that they will need to be aggressive about pursuing a championship, as they tried to be with Dirk. But also realistic.

@"mavsluvr", Isaac Harris expressed something similar to your post. The one player that he thought that the Mavs would pounce on if they could muster a reasonable offer was Jrue Holiday.

(12-19-2019, 06:18 PM)fifteenth Wrote: [ -> ]@"mavsluvr", Isaac Harris expressed something similar to your post. The one player that he thought that the Mavs would pounce on if they could muster a reasonable offer was Jrue Holiday.

That's interesting. I hadn't really considered Jrue, as he doesn't seem to be an obvious fit. Doesn't play a position of need, I think has a player option extending past the summer of 21, is already 29. I may well have missed something, though. And if they considered him the third member of the core, then the length of his contract wouldn't be so important. Did he have any sourcing that the Mavs are interested, or was he thinking they should be?

(12-19-2019, 06:36 PM)mavsluvr Wrote: [ -> ]Did he have any sourcing that the Mavs are interested, or was he thinking they should be?

He didn't really tip his hand if I remember correctly. I know he's plugged in but I couldn't quite tell if it was purely his opinion or not. I might have to re-listen to the podcast. It was yesterday's Locked On.

I'd consider him a great fit next to Luka. I think he fits well between Luka and DFS as a starter and would fit with with Brunson and Seth if he spent some minutes with the second unit. 

But it'd probably require an expensive trade.

(12-19-2019, 06:41 PM)fifteenth Wrote: [ -> ]

(12-19-2019, 06:36 PM)mavsluvr Wrote: [ -> ]Did he have any sourcing that the Mavs are interested, or was he thinking they should be?

He didn't really tip his hand if I remember correctly. I know he's plugged in but I couldn't quite tell if it was purely his opinion or not. I might have to re-listen to the podcast. It was yesterday's Locked On.

I'd consider him a great fit next to Luka. I think he fits well between Luka and DFS as a starter and would fit with with Brunson and Seth if he spent some minutes with the second unit. 

But it'd probably require an expensive trade.

I guess the idea would be that Luka would serve as a big point guard, and Jrue would be a small shooting guard who could share playmaking duties. Hmm. Maybe that could work. New Orleans might be able to do better than whatever the Mavs would be able/willing to offer, but that's another question. 

I'll check out the pod, if I can.

(12-19-2019, 06:18 PM)fifteenth Wrote: [ -> ]@"mavsluvr", Isaac Harris expressed something similar to your post. The one player that he thought that the Mavs would pounce on if they could muster a reasonable offer was Jrue Holiday.

Most posters here are offering multiple firsts, 2nds, AND young players for Jrue Holiday.


Why blow the entire asset chest on an oft-injured, good-not-great guard?

(12-19-2019, 06:36 PM)mavsluvr Wrote: [ -> ]

(12-19-2019, 06:18 PM)fifteenth Wrote: [ -> ]@"mavsluvr", Isaac Harris expressed something similar to your post. The one player that he thought that the Mavs would pounce on if they could muster a reasonable offer was Jrue Holiday.

That's interesting. I hadn't really considered Jrue, as he doesn't seem to be an obvious fit. Doesn't play a position of need, I think has a player option extending past the summer of 21, is already 29. I may well have missed something, though. And if they considered him the third member of the core, then the length of his contract wouldn't be so important. Did he have any sourcing that the Mavs are interested, or was he thinking they should be?

I don't understand at all how he wouldn't be a fit basketball-wise. He would be an alternate ball-handler next to Luka, a solid defender, and a guy who can create his own shot, which we don't have enough of at starting-caliber level. Given what we have in the backcourt next to Luka right now, I would say that's clearly our greatest position of need. How "a three-and-D wing" came to outstrip that is something of a mystery. Yeah, you'd be losing a little size going from THJ to Jrue, but pretty much everything else makes up for it.

My hesitations with Jrue would have to do with age and contract. He looks to be falling off on both ends of the court. Is he over the hill, a la DAJ? If that's the case, I would want no part of him. I'll leave it to the MBT to scout him and decide if he's worth the assets it would take to get him.

(12-19-2019, 07:52 PM)SleepingHero Wrote: [ -> ]

(12-19-2019, 06:18 PM)fifteenth Wrote: [ -> ]@"mavsluvr", Isaac Harris expressed something similar to your post. The one player that he thought that the Mavs would pounce on if they could muster a reasonable offer was Jrue Holiday.

Most posters here are offering multiple firsts, 2nds, AND young players for Jrue Holiday.


Why blow the entire asset chest on an oft-injured, good-not-great guard?

Checked out the podcast. Harris threw out Holiday's name as an example of the kind of player the Mavs might want to swing for, as a definite upgrade in a position of need. He wasn't specifically analyzing that particular trade, but spoke of it as a possible trade for the "right piece."

In that regard, I don't really see point guard as a position of need, but I guess the backcourt could combine into big Luka and small Jrue, similar to the Kidd-Terry combo. 

When it comes to draft compensation, the Mavs' cupboard is pretty bare. I just don't know how attractive their assets would be to New Orleans, compared to what other teams might want to offer. If he were available for the right price, he would be a definite upgrade to the back court when healthy, and probably a good locker room presence and veteran guide for some of the youngsters. In order to take on that 21-22 salary, though, the Mavs would have to believe they're not likely to get anyone better with the cap space they otherwise would have had, or, alternatively, that they can offload him then if they need to. 

I haven't heard that Jrue is trying to force his way out, or anything, not that we would necessarily know. But if the Pels don't get an offer they like in-season, they can probably just wait until summer, when deals tend to be easier to do. It's not like Iggy, where the team is in a have-to-take-whatever-they-can-get mode. 

I don't know. Doesn't seem super likely, but you never can tell.

(12-19-2019, 07:52 PM)SleepingHero Wrote: [ -> ]

(12-19-2019, 06:18 PM)fifteenth Wrote: [ -> ]@"mavsluvr", Isaac Harris expressed something similar to your post. The one player that he thought that the Mavs would pounce on if they could muster a reasonable offer was Jrue Holiday.

Most posters here are offering multiple firsts, 2nds, AND young players for Jrue Holiday.


Why blow the entire asset chest on an oft-injured, good-not-great guard?

I understand what you're saying here.

This is what is so frustrating about our offseason. We signed four players to excellent contracts given their ability levels - DFS, Maxi, Seth, and Wright. We had the money to go out and get two more players of that level. Instead, we have a TPE, which given our history with those, is likely to expire without incident (banghead). The Mavs are in a dangerous position. They have three, or maybe four holes (in the ten-man rotation, because it's looking to me as time goes on that Justin is *not* a playoff rotation player) to fill. Any trades they make beyond TPE + seconds or Lee + seconds is going to create more holes as well as straining chemistry. Those holes won't be able to be filled in-season, and will be difficult to fill in the offseason depending on the contract situations the players we traded for created. If we had those two more 7th-man guys, we might have some trouble distributing minutes, but we wouldn't have nearly as many concerns about roster improvements in one area hurting it somewhere else.