02-11-2021, 12:29 PM
(02-11-2021, 12:24 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]As far as defense goes, I'm just too scared of his inability to move well to be a believer.I read an Atlanta fan comparing him to an Ent from LOTR.
(02-11-2021, 12:24 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]As far as defense goes, I'm just too scared of his inability to move well to be a believer.I read an Atlanta fan comparing him to an Ent from LOTR.
(02-11-2021, 12:24 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]As far as defense goes, I'm just too scared of his inability to move well to be a believer. I don't think he'll ever be the guy everyone wants him to be on that end.
(02-11-2021, 12:39 PM)SleepingHero Wrote: [ -> ]KL, what are you expecting KP to be on defense? He just had a game with 6 blocks in it with insane rim protection. Is your belief coming from because he isn't a good perimeter defender? If so, why are you holding him to that standard since almost every big sans maybe AD isn't a good perimeter defender at all.
(02-11-2021, 12:48 PM)RDB Wrote: [ -> ]Not to butt in but I committed to support KL on KP if he supported me on Collins.
FWIW...he did have his 6 blocks against one of the worst teams who’s tallest player was 6’9.
(02-11-2021, 12:39 PM)SleepingHero Wrote: [ -> ]KL, what are you expecting KP to be on defense? He just had a game with 6 blocks in it with insane rim protection. Is your belief coming from because he isn't a good perimeter defender? If so, why are you holding him to that standard since almost every big sans maybe AD isn't a good perimeter defender at all.
(02-11-2021, 01:08 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]For KP to be a viable option as a foundational building block with his defensive shortcomings, he'd have to be as big of a deal on offense as Jokic, in my opinion. Is there ANY chance he ever reaches that level? I think not.
(02-11-2021, 01:08 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]The Minnesota game was good for him, in terms of interior rim protection. He was guarding a smaller guy who didn't have much in his bag, and the opposing team didn't really do much to force KP away from the paint, meaning the journey involved with being in the paint at the same time as the ball was a really easy one, relative to other games. But, I'll give him credit for that one. You can only defend what the opponent is making you defend, after all, and he did his job that night.^excellent post that everyone should read. One thing is that even if KP doesn’t have the athleticism to cover out to the 3pt line and provide elite defense in all scenarios, we could still run a zone to combat that PnR in certain cases. We have the G/F personnel now to do it. Trap a player like Young using Maxi and Richardson or whoever. Then rotate around if Young beats the trap. Problem is even in these situations KP has looked like he can’t protect the rim. Too many easy layups and offensive rebounds for the opponent.
In today's game, a center has to be able to COVER GROUND, going from the paint all the way out to show hard on a ball-handler coming off a screen, and then to recover to the screener who could be rolling, popping, whatever, and then if the screener is rolling, the 5 will sometimes have to get all the way out to the corner to contest a shot once he has taken the lob away. He MIGHT even have to make it back to the paint again after that.
OR, he can play in drop coverage, which is essentially creating a sort of one man zone in the paint. This puts a ton of pressure on the guard to be almost superhuman with their recovery time against certain players, and it STILL requires lightning fast reflexes from the 5, as he now has to face (possibly) a ball-handler AND a screener, both going downhill, and possibly even a back-door cutter. Not knowing which of those scenarios to prepare for, the guy whose quickness you're trying to hide by choosing this approach ends up even more screwed by a good offense, imo.
OR, you can just switch everything, which will result in Chris Paul going 1-on-1 in an iso situation against KP. We saw how that worked in the last PHX game (which was KP's best defensive effort of the season, imo). Not really an option with Porzingis.
This is why guys like DAJ and Drummond really shouldn't be in the league, and this is why teams are literally (this is not hyperbole) targeting Porzingis with their actions the entire time he's on the floor.
There are more 5's than Davis who can move well enough to be a force on defense. We just saw one last night in Capella. Gobert, Bam, Embiid (when he's playing hard, like this season). I'm not going to list them all, but there are plenty more. For KP to be a viable option as a foundational building block with his defensive shortcomings, he'd have to be as big of a deal on offense as Jokic, in my opinion. Is there ANY chance he ever reaches that level? I think not.
(02-11-2021, 01:37 PM)SleepingHero Wrote: [ -> ]AH
I see where you're coming from now. Okay. Sure if you're looking at KP through the lens of wanting him to be more like Bam/Gobert/Davis, then yeah I can see how you think KP's shortcomings are too great.
See I see him more like a better version of Brook Lopez. A guy that is a stout rim defender, can hit a 3 from wherever on the court, and has a slightly more potent offensive game overall. I'm not expecting KP to be like Bam because well, he's never been that in his career. He was never that in NYK, and I don't think he can magically gain the footspeed of those guys. Now where I think you and I deviate is I think despite his lack of perimeter mobility, KP can be the anchor for a championship team.
Also
Not trying to be sarcastic or facetious, but KP quite literally averaged more ppg than Jokic last season. If we want to take his 2nd half from Jan-Bubble, KP averaged about the same ppg as Jokic is averaging this season. Meaning KP is already at that level of putting the ball in the hoop. Jokic is obviously more valuable because he can put the ball in the hoop and playmake like Luka. Thankfully we're not asking KP to do anything but put the ball in the hoop.
So if we're using your standard of being a foundational building block, he's already there isn't he?
(02-11-2021, 01:37 PM)SleepingHero Wrote: [ -> ]See I see him more like a better version of Brook Lopez. A guy that is a stout rim defender, can hit a 3 from wherever on the court, and has a slightly more potent offensive game overall.
(02-11-2021, 02:05 PM)RDB Wrote: [ -> ]For me, it’s less about PPG and more about efficiency and KP is terrible for a big. I would add that advanced stats are not kind to KP when compared to Jokic:
(02-11-2021, 02:12 PM)dirkfansince1998 Wrote: [ -> ]That´s a role player. Not a 2nd or 3rd option on a max contract. Not to mention that we have already seen KP in a less featured role (every single time he plays with a rim runner like WCS or Powell next to him) and he never looked happy or had a big impact on the game.
(02-11-2021, 02:00 PM)Jason Terry Wrote: [ -> ]Then the question becomes what CAN he do on defense if he can’t rebound, rim protect or guard out to the perimeter? That player is not worth max or the name “unicorn”
(02-11-2021, 02:34 PM)SleepingHero Wrote: [ -> ]He can't guard the perimeter effectively consistently which is a valid criticism.
(02-11-2021, 02:20 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]Here's a video I came across last year that does a decent job at pointing out some subtle things that make Gobert superior to Whiteside. IMO, the creator of this video could've substituted KP for Whiteside in this video and it would have been almost the same, exact watch.This has been my hope since seeing the negative side of KP. The issue is IF he gets that time due to injuries. We may NEVER see KP close to his ceiling due to that. The further he moves from his rookie contract, the more expectations are put on him to produce at or above his contract.
https://youtu.be/VbGnvk23odA
Now, to play devil's advocate with myself: My entire view is based on the feeling that most of the problems KP is having on the defensive end are physical. He IS an intelligent person/player, so...IF they're really just the result of him not fully having regained his health, or not fully feeling confident in his knees, or not having had enough practice/off-season time to fully understand what Dallas' system requires of him, then I CAN imagine that he'll figure those things out over time. In other words, if a high percentage of his troubles are MENTAL, then I would bet on the combo of KP and Carlisle to work through that successfully. They're both too smart not to get that done.
(02-11-2021, 02:40 PM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]I haven't called any GMs around the league to gauge his trade value to know if it is at an all-time low, but if there isn't a trade that nets us at least a youngish (no older than, say, Beal) bonafide second fiddle with him, then there is no reason to trade him IMO.
(02-11-2021, 12:50 PM)SleepingHero Wrote: [ -> ]And sure his 6 blocks were against a bottom dweller, but he still went out there and did it.I love that he got 6 blocks in 1 game. I HATE that he got 0 blocks in the two surrounding games. That becomes an average of 2 bpg which is much less impressive, and very much a point in those talking about his effort game in and game out.
(02-11-2021, 02:43 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]Are you sure? No reason?By the time Luka's 5 year extension has run out KP's contract will be in a newer (hopefully) responsibly priced range, or he'll be gone.
How will you feel if the Mavs haven't figured this out by the time Luka's rookie extension ends in five years and KP's contract has blocked them at every turn?
As tough as it might be to swallow, there ABSOLUTELY is still time to start over. It's not fun to think about because we all want good basketball NOW, but it's not like that's what we're getting. IF Porzingis is in the way of getting there, then I'd be WAY ok with a strategic step back to open up ways forward (while this choice is still possible).
(02-11-2021, 02:45 PM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]By the time Luka's 5 year extension has run out KP's contract will be in a newer (hopefully) responsibly priced range, or he'll be gone.
(02-11-2021, 02:50 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]Oh, for sure. But, I'm in the camp that loves continuity, remember?By Luka's 5 year into his extension, KP would be a big part of the continuity on the team.
(02-11-2021, 02:56 PM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]KP would be a big part of the continuity on the team.