I want to start by saying, I'm very pro Josh Green and think has developed himself into a nice player over the course of this year. I think that he brings a level of energy and athleticism that can't be found anywhere else on this roster, makes good decisive passes, cuts without the ball, uses his athleticism well on defense AND knocked down enough corner threes towards the end of the year to be able to keep him on the floor for extended minutes. He certainly earned his spot in the rotation.
Having said all that...I never felt like Frank LOST that rotation spot when he was given his opportunity early in the season. He was one of the few bright spots as this team was hovering around .500. The switch back to him now has clearly made a difference as he's definitely bothering Booker defensively with his length. I think this may be the start of the pendulum swinging back in his favor long term. He doesn't make the best decisions with the ball in his hands at times and he seemed frantic in those positions yesterday but that simply shouldn't be his job. People labeled him a bust but the expectations were all wrong. Frank looks like a DFS mini me out there when he's playing, he has the defense and length of wing and his shot has never seemed that untrustworthy to me this year. I have really loved this change and hope it continues. I honestly think it was very understated that he wasn't available those games Luka was out because we could have used those minutes (we obviously found other ways to win but was always surprised it never came up).
Lately I've been thinking that the second year of the Frank contract may end up putting us in a great position. It really has me wondering how much value THJ/Green/2022 FRP has as a trade package. That feels like the best way to attain someone who we can add to our current playoff rotation without removing anyone that we're seeing over the last two games.
(05-09-2022, 10:49 AM)StrandedOnBeauboisHill Wrote: [ -> ]I want to start by saying, I'm very pro Josh Green and think has developed himself into a nice player over the course of this year. I think that he brings a level of energy and athleticism that can't be found anywhere else on this roster, makes good decisive passes, cuts without the ball, uses his athleticism well on defense AND knocked down enough corner threes towards the end of the year to be able to keep him on the floor for extended minutes. He certainly earned his spot in the rotation.
Having said all that...I never felt like Frank LOST that rotation spot when he was given his opportunity early in the season. He was one of the few bright spots as this team was hovering around .500. The switch back to him now has clearly made a difference as he's definitely bothering Booker defensively with his length. I think this may be the start of the pendulum swinging back in his favor long term. He doesn't make the best decisions with the ball in his hands at times and he seemed frantic in those positions yesterday but that simply shouldn't be his job. People labeled him a bust but the expectations were all wrong. Frank looks like a DFS mini me out there when he's playing, he has the defense and length of wing and his shot has never seemed that untrustworthy to me this year. I have really loved this change and hope it continues. I honestly think it was very understated that he wasn't available those games Luka was out because we could have used those minutes (we obviously found other ways to win but was always surprised it never came up).
Lately I've been thinking that the second year of the Frank contract may end up putting us in a great position. It really has me wondering how much value THJ/Green/2022 FRP has as a trade package. That feels like the best way to attain someone who we can add to our current playoff rotation without removing anyone that we're seeing over the last two games.
If the Mavs find a deal that makes sense, I hope it only has to include one of Green or the 2022 FRP. Would be ideal to keep them both but that doesn't seem realistic.
Mavs need to keep throwing darts at rookie contract players because they are going to need some development wins to continue to supplement the roster.
Frank has shown flashes of being a useful player, he just got chewed up by a numbers game. Credit to Kidd and staff for making the switch to him as he has had a real impact defensively. He does go a little wild hare at times but the few shots he has gotten up have looked confident which is more than I can say for Green.
(05-09-2022, 10:49 AM)StrandedOnBeauboisHill Wrote: [ -> ]Frank looks like a DFS mini me out there when he's playing, he has the defense and length of wing and his shot has never seemed that untrustworthy to me this year.
Yep, I say this as one of FN's biggest fans: He is a 3&D guard, who will occasionally be asked to pull out some of his PG skills in a pinch. I am convinced he can have a long career in the NBA if he simply focuses on the 3&D.
Green gave them the one big game 3 at Utah that was probably the biggest win of the playoffs so he has already fulfilled his expectations. With the guard depth, that role is pretty much just about buying 10-15 minutes for the starters to rest so Ntilikina is the right player for this series and moving forward in the playoffs due to experience.
Both should be keepers for the future unless you can include them on a good trade package. Worst-case, you keep Green and continue to develop him. You have a rotation guard on an affordable rookie contract for the next 2 years who will be familiar with the system. I think his ETA was always the 2023 season or even 2024.
(05-09-2022, 11:04 AM)MaxiThreeba Wrote: [ -> ]If the Mavs find a deal that makes sense, I hope it only has to include one of Green or the 2022 FRP. Would be ideal to keep them both but that doesn't seem realistic.
Mavs need to keep throwing darts at rookie contract players because they are going to need some development wins to continue to supplement the roster.
Frank has shown flashes of being a useful player, he just got chewed up by a numbers game. Credit to Kidd and staff for making the switch to him as he has had a real impact defensively. He does go a little wild hare at times but the few shots he has gotten up have looked confident which is more than I can say for Green.
I totally agree about only adding one of those two assets, I think I'm just trying to say that before these last two games, I was much more hesitant to add Green in any hypotheticals simply because it felt like Kidd had decided that he was a sure part of the rotation but he feels more expendable now seeing Frank play very meaningful minutes in this series.
(05-09-2022, 11:04 AM)MaxiThreeba Wrote: [ -> ]If the Mavs find a deal that makes sense, I hope it only has to include one of Green or the 2022 FRP. Would be ideal to keep them both but that doesn't seem realistic.
Mavs need to keep throwing darts at rookie contract players because they are going to need some development wins to continue to supplement the roster.
Frank has shown flashes of being a useful player, he just got chewed up by a numbers game. Credit to Kidd and staff for making the switch to him as he has had a real impact defensively. He does go a little wild hare at times but the few shots he has gotten up have looked confident which is more than I can say for Green.
It's possible that, in this situation, Frankie provides greater value than Green for some spot minutes.
It's also possible that Green's ceiling is much higher.
(05-09-2022, 11:42 AM)DallasMaverick Wrote: [ -> ]It's possible that, in this situation, Frankie provides greater value than Green for some spot minutes.
It's also possible that Green's ceiling is much higher.
I agree that Green's ceiling seems higher because of how much raw athleticism he has but I would also add that Frank doesn't seem anywhere near his ceiling too. Hard to remember sometimes that he's only 23 himself.
The question for me is, can they shoot like they did on the road, as they did at home. Phoenix is going to make adjustments and they'll have their crowd behind them. I'd venture to say it will be tough to shoot the same % on the road. Will DFS hit 8 3's and score 24 pts on the road at Phoenix? He could, but it's unlikely. Phoenix lit it up at home, then struggled in Dallas. I would expect the same. This will tell if Dallas has graduated from just a good team to serious contender.
(05-09-2022, 11:42 AM)DallasMaverick Wrote: [ -> ]It's possible that, in this situation, Frankie provides greater value than Green for some spot minutes.
It's also possible that Green's ceiling is much higher.
Josh's playmaking instincts are the swinger for me. He just shows flashes of high level basketball IQ the are incredibly intriguing.
With Luka, JB and Dinwiddie those skills just aren't needed now and can't be developed/nurtured in season (and especially not during the playoffs!). His big steps forward have to be in the offseason.
That's why his 3 pt shot is the most important thing for him developmentally at the moment. That's how he gets on the floor and that playing time allows for the development of his all around game to take place. He took solid strides this year there, but this matchup is just too much for him right now...which is fine.
Hopefully our main guys can keep from getting Paul'd off the court
If our main 5 can play big minutes while aggressively defending I like our chances
Josh Green does the little things that help teams win. He needs to fine tune them though. For instance, he is an aggressive and quick defender, but hasn't learned the nuances of some of the tricks defending. So scorers feel pretty comfortable going at him. He will learn.
His shot is concerning. He shot the ball well the second half of the season so that is promising. But some of his three point misses and free throw misses are so far off that is is concerning. Sometimes they are not even close.
My biggest concern with him though is his finishing. He is a great athlete but doesn't look like it when getting to the rim. I really hope his next step is being able to shot fake, get to the rim and use his strong body to finish at the rim. For instance, watch Bane use his body to absorb contact and finish. Right now, Green doesn't do this and mostly is looking to pass when driving.
I was wondering near the end of the year if Green had graduated from summer league play. I now think he should play summer league with instructions of going out there and scoring, handling the ball and being aggressive. He just needs those reps...whether he is asked to do this or not with the regular team.
Lastly, playoff games are really tough...so I give him some slack as a youngster. It is also tough to enter the game and produce when your # is called...if it is called. That is what pros do, but it is hard. He seems to have the right temperament and is a mature player.
Will he find success long term here? For me, the answer is a toss up at this point.
(05-09-2022, 09:28 AM)vfromlmf Wrote: [ -> ]Game 4 narrative is all about the officiating and Chris Paul uncharacteristically fouling out.
I forgot the narrative surrounding the Mavs comeback attempt in the Suns game 1 win. "The Suns took their foot off the gas and lost focus but they were still good enough to win."
Seems this has been an undercurrent throughout, which again is great for Dallas. The Suns won game 1 without even trying hard so obviously all they have to do is lock in and they'll overwhelm the poor undermanned Mavericks.
Here's a summary from the Arizona Republic after game 4:
"most of their (Suns) issues in the two losses to Dallas are signs of a team that’s mental edge was rounded off by taking a 2-0 lead. Pick a cliché, but a team that’s focused, locked in, doesn’t give up as much penetration as the Suns did, fail to close out on shooters as often as they did and throw the ball away as many times as they did."
I love it!
Here's my summary of the series so far
Game 1: Suns didn't try hard, but coulda blown the Mavs out. Suns 1-0
Game 2: Despite Mavs leading or within striking distance until mid 4th, the Suns embarrassed Luka. Suns 2-0
Game 3: CP3 and Book missed easy shots. Suns shoulda won. Suns 2-1
Game 4: CP3 fouled out and Suns weren't locked in, but Suns woulda won. Even 2-2
The Mavs aren't a bad team so you'd think, if the Suns woulda, coulda, shoulda games 1-4, maybe the Mavs are due for a legit unqualified ass-whipping win?
(05-09-2022, 12:04 PM)StrandedOnBeauboisHill Wrote: [ -> ]I agree that Green's ceiling seems higher because of how much raw athleticism he has but I would also add that Frank doesn't seem anywhere near his ceiling too. Hard to remember sometimes that he's only 23 himself.
Frank is young, and I think we should hold on to both. Very similar players in that they are effectively 3&D with a little extra playmaking/passing thrown in, which is a bonus. They also had roughly similar seasons. Frank is only 23 and a perfect vet min contract, but Green is 2 years and three seasons younger. I have higher hopes for what he might become.
(05-09-2022, 02:11 PM)mvossman Wrote: [ -> ]Frank is young, and I think we should hold on to both. Very similar players in that they are effectively 3&D with a little extra playmaking/passing thrown in, which is a bonus. They also had roughly similar seasons. Frank is only 23 and a perfect vet min contract, but Green is 2 years and three seasons younger. I have higher hopes for what he might become.
I would like to see what Kidd and his staff can do with a successful playoff run to build upon and a full offseason of preparation. Maybe accelerate development of Green and/or Frank into a more useful role? Or at least increase their trade value?
(05-09-2022, 02:41 PM)michaeltex Wrote: [ -> ]I would like to see what Kidd and his staff can do with a successful playoff run to build upon and a full offseason of preparation. Maybe accelerate development of Green and/or Frank into a more useful role? Or at least increase their trade value?
I think the addition of Dinwiddie is important for Frank as well. Even with Dinwiddie's playoff struggles, he slots in as the 3rd playmaking guard for the Mavs behind Luka and JB.
The Mavs were missing that guy all season and had to look to Burke, Frank and occasionally Green to try and soak up some of that responsibility.
Frank hasn't panned out as a PG to this point. The last two games Frank has been freed up to be a 3 and D wing and has been effective. His wingspan allows him to play above his size a bit too on the defensive end (similar to Josh).
This team talks a lot about playing their roles under Kidd. Those roles seem to have materialized into 4 categories:
- Playmaking Guard
- 3 and D Wing
- 5 Out Big
- Roll Man
Some guys can play multiple roles, but all guys need to be able to play at least one of these roles. I think Frank was forced into the Playmaking Guard role and could really find his place in the 3 and D wing role moving forward.
(05-09-2022, 03:10 PM)MaxiThreeba Wrote: [ -> ]I think the addition of Dinwiddie is important for Frank as well. Even with Dinwiddie's playoff struggles, he slots in as the 3rd playmaking guard for the Mavs behind Luka and JB.
The Mavs were missing that guy all season and had to look to Burke, Frank and occasionally Green to try and soak up some of that responsibility.
Frank hasn't panned out as a PG to this point. The last two games Frank has been freed up to be a 3 and D wing and has been effective. His wingspan allows him to play above his size a bit too on the defensive end (similar to Josh).
This team talks a lot about playing their roles under Kidd. Those roles seem to have materialized into 4 categories:
- Playmaking Guard
- 3 and D Wing
- 5 Out Big
- Roll Man
Some guys can play multiple roles, but all guys need to be able to play at least one of these roles. I think Frank was forced into the Playmaking Guard role and could really find his place in the 3 and D wing role moving forward.
Yep. Both Frank and Green make the most sense in this role.
Notice that THJ and Bertans don't really fit any of those roles. Need to swap one of them (probably THJ) for one of the big man roles. One of the great things about Maxi is that if we get another roll man (pushing Powell to bench) he can easily morph into 3&D wing.
(05-09-2022, 02:11 PM)mvossman Wrote: [ -> ]Frank is young, and I think we should hold on to both. Very similar players in that they are effectively 3&D with a little extra playmaking/passing thrown in, which is a bonus. They also had roughly similar seasons. Frank is only 23 and a perfect vet min contract, but Green is 2 years and three seasons younger. I have higher hopes for what he might become.
I'm on the opposite end of that. I think we can almost see the ceiling of both players. I think both players can survive on the end of the bench for a few more years, but neither have anything particularly special to offer. Frankie has a wider spectrum of abilities now, and I suspect Josh will improve some. But I don't think either of these are players you try to keep. You can and should probably move them for something else.
Note that Mavs are the most physical team. They were more physical than Utah as well. Big contrast to last year team, significant improvement. If you are more physical than your opponent, chances are higher you will win, this just has tendency to get into the mind of opponents. Not only more physical, but also smarter in some close 50-50 situations, where details matter. It's incredible to see Luka lead the way in this regard. Earlier in his career, he would have been maybe ejected from the last game after the first technical foul. Instead, he diminished the talking to refs, played mind game with opponents, and he channeled his huge anger into different ways of outsmarting the Suns, and even outsmarting the smartest of NBA players in Paul. It's clear Luka doesn't want to lose, and leads by example.
If Mavs stay the more physical team, they will advance from this series. Play smarter and more physical, and I would say the Suns don't even have a chance. Now the Mavs have adjusted, and put pressure on the Suns that need to re-adjust their approach and tactics, because if things stay as they are, Suns are out. This is huge pressure they are on, and we will see what they are made of. It's incredible our team is doing something like this against the best team in the league. That's incredibly promising for this young core of players going forward.
We need to figure out a way to get off of Brown and Burke. I do wonder if we could develop Frank more if we was given reliable minutes. The problem is that THJ is coming back so it will be hard to carve out minutes for both Frank and Josh.
Josh's athleticism is impressive but I can't say his defense ever wows me. He gets a lot of dumb fouls and while he can stay in front of his man, it doesn't ever seem to bother him much. Maybe there is a little recency bias on my part with how Clarkson feasted on him, but I've had similar feelings throughout the season. His best traits are cutting and ball handling with a little playmaking. His worst trait is his fear of shooting. You can be taught how to shoot but I can't teach you the confidence to shoot.
Frank just looks more comfortable and that makes sense considering his experience with his national team and the Knicks. He just seems ready and that shot he hit in game four proves it. I'm not sure Josh even pulls the trigger. The negative I've noticed about him in his limited playoff minutes is that he's had two or three tips on really simple passes. While none of Brown, Burke, Josh or he have much value, he's probably the most attractive trade piece.
(05-09-2022, 03:44 PM)Winter Wrote: [ -> ]I'm on the opposite end of that. I think we can almost see the ceiling of both players. I think both players can survive on the end of the bench for a few more years, but neither have anything particularly special to offer. Frankie has a wider spectrum of abilities now, and I suspect Josh will improve some. But I don't think either of these are players you try to keep. You can and should probably move them for something else.
3&D guys that don't score a lot are undervalued in free agency and trade market. I don't see either guy bringing back much value, yet they are both younger and more valuable to the team than Brown, Burke or Boban. Not sure why we are in a hurry to dump them.
If you can already see Green's ceiling, then you have a better eye than I do. He is already an above average defensive player. If he can be a little more assertive in pulling the trigger on 3s at a little higher percentage, that will be enough for him to be a very useful player.