(06-14-2021, 09:53 PM)dirkfansince1998 Wrote: [ -> ]Don´t think so. Collins isn´t a full time rim protector. Also isn´t the best perimeter defender. Ideally he gets the easier matchup (just like in Atlanta). I guess if KP remembers that he wanted to be the DPOY it is an option.
Fit on offense isn´t bad if KP is happy in a Brook Lopez 2.0 kind of role. Don´t think that is the case.
I mean ya I think they will give it a go though. KP might need to be Lopez 2.0+, ie 7-8 more FGA per game. I think if KP gets good shots then he won't have much to complain about. He admitted himself that post-ups aren't really a thing anymore If he can also give up trying to dribbling around like he's Kevin Durant and just focus on shooting I think he could be fine as Lopez with more shot attempts, at least until they can find more ways to integrate him into the offense.
Collins had some big plays with follow up dunks in the third quarter that led a Hawks charge. He also had a big 3 pointer down by 4 late in the game. My view on him does not change. Really nice player, but not someone who I want to pay max money too.
The Hawks team is fun. Their GM was made fun of a lot the past few years. Luka is the better player...but he had a vision and built his team to that vision. Compare that to the vision of our home teams vision.
I think Philly should remain the favorite in the series, but Embid knee is the big question mark. Going down the stretch, I felt like Philly had no one who could get a basket if Embid is compromised. That may be unfair to Harris, but Atlanta just feels like they have more options to get buckets. Atlanta won without shooting well...good sign for them.
(06-15-2021, 07:05 AM)Chicagojk Wrote: [ -> ]Collins had some big plays with follow up dunks in the third quarter that led a Hawks charge. He also had a big 3 pointer down by 4 late in the game. My view on him does not change. Really nice player, but not someone who I want to pay max money too.
The Hawks team is fun. Their GM was made fun of a lot the past few years. Luka is the better player...but he had a vision and built his team to that vision. Compare that to the vision of our home teams vision.
I think Philly should remain the favorite in the series, but Embid knee is the big question mark. Going down the stretch, I felt like Philly had no one who could get a basket if Embid is compromised. That may be unfair to Harris, but Atlanta just feels like they have more options to get buckets. Atlanta won without shooting well...good sign for them.
The Mavs mistake was not signing Harrison Barnes. Their mistake was stopping there. The next logical Barnes choices would have been Randle and Lavine. The logical choices this summer are Collins, Markkanen and Ball.
If you are not willing to play the asset/draft (rebuild) game, then you basically have to be opportunistic and make good FA reads. I really don´t see how Collins in Atlanta is that different from Love in Minnesota or Bosh in Toronto. Before Young arrived Collins was a 20/10 on a losing team as early as his 2nd season. He can easily be the efficient 3rd best guy on a championship team, maybe more. Question is to figure out how to get the #2. Maybe it´s Lavine. Maybe it´s Butler. Maybe it´s Beal.
(06-15-2021, 07:05 AM)Chicagojk Wrote: [ -> ]Collins had some big plays with follow up dunks in the third quarter that led a Hawks charge. He also had a big 3 pointer down by 4 late in the game. My view on him does not change. Really nice player, but not someone who I want to pay max money too.
But that's how you get him, is a max contract. That's the game with RFAs. Bogdanovic wasn't considered an 18 mil dollar player. The Bucks deal that fell through would have been much less. It was in the Kings best interest to match any offer to keep the asset, but again that's how you steal these guys away. Bogdanovic is now an important player for the Hawks.
You aren't going to get Collins for even 22/yr which already seems too high for him. The way you get him is to money whip him/Hawks and toss them an asset or two. The Mavs FO is desperate so I think its even more likely they go big or go home. This to me is their big target that's realistic.
If Mavs want to get players that are good value, those guys are out there but they will be mostly role players. Mavs have failed both getting their big targets and decent role players. I mean we had a chance to get Crowder by offering him a reasonable contract. Now he's on a team going to the Western Conference finals. But that's where we are thanks to the Mavs saving all their cap space for this summer.
(06-15-2021, 07:57 AM)Mavs2021 Wrote: [ -> ]The Mavs mistake was not signing Harrison Barnes. Their mistake was stopping there. The next logical Barnes choices would have been Randle and Lavine. The logical choices this summer are Collins, Markkanen and Ball.
If you are not willing to play the asset/draft (rebuild) game, then you basically have to be opportunistic and make good FA reads. I really don´t see how Collins in Atlanta is that different from Love in Minnesota or Bosh in Toronto. Before Young arrived Collins was a 20/10 on a losing team as early as his 2nd season. He can easily be the efficient 3rd best guy on a championship team, maybe more. Question is to figure out how to get the #2. Maybe it´s Lavine. Maybe it´s Butler. Maybe it´s Beal.
I was not super high on JCollins. However he is a legit starter and young. You are correct. We cannot over analyze now and then complain later when we roll out bench players as part of our starting lineup. This team needs some serious infusion of quality talent. I have come around now based on reading your and other folks opinions on this.
(06-15-2021, 07:57 AM)Mavs2021 Wrote: [ -> ]The Mavs mistake was not signing Harrison Barnes. Their mistake was stopping there. The next logical Barnes choices would have been Randle and Lavine. The logical choices this summer are Collins, Markkanen and Ball.
One of these is not like the others.
It’s soooooo hard to know. If JC is the best player we can get, we should get him. But a couple years ago we thought that was Kemba. Turns out we couldn’t get him. And he wasn’t the best. Wouldn’t be one bit surprised to see the same thing happen here.
(06-15-2021, 02:04 PM)Jommybone Wrote: [ -> ]If JC is the best player we can get, we should get him. But a couple years ago we thought that was Kemba. Turns out we couldn’t get him. And he wasn’t the best. Wouldn’t be one bit surprised to see the same thing happen here.
JC is the best player the Mavs can get. Kemba was not even close to the best. Many of us saw that.
People are overthinking the JC stuff. Dude is athletic and 23 and has an elite and growing skill set. GO GET HIM.
Kemba was aging (and had a body giving the signs it was breaking down) with a game that was past its prime. Just not even remotely similar IMO.
As long as the Mavs have watched what he is doing in the Playoffs and feel he is worth overpaying for...than go for it.
Im not in "give away the farm" for him...but I am in on a slight overpay for him if he is the best the Mavs can do. I think he is better than our players.
(06-15-2021, 02:11 PM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]JC is the best player the Mavs can get. Kemba was not even close to the best. Many of us saw that.
People are overthinking the JC stuff. Dude is athletic and 23 and has an elite and growing skill set. GO GET HIM.
Kemba was aging (and had a body giving the signs it was breaking down) with a game that was past its prime. Just not even remotely similar IMO.
Agree that this is not a Kemba situation, but I'm not convinced JC is the best we can get. He is an efficient offensive player, but he does not create for others and as far as I can tell he does not create for himself. Isn't that what we have been complaining about with KP? He is basically Maxi on the perimeter and Powell in the paint offensively, and he's not a particular upgrade on defense (he is a better rebounder). I realize this is an oversimplification and the versatility is useful, but I'm not sure a Powell on steroids is the best we can get. Honestly, if we were not taking KP into account and we are paying an asset and the max to get Collins, I would probably rather use that asset to trade for Adams, who is a better fit (because of his defense) with Luka and 10 Mil cheaper.
(06-15-2021, 02:11 PM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]JC is the best player the Mavs can get. Kemba was not even close to the best. Many of us saw that.
People are overthinking the JC stuff. Dude is athletic and 23 and has an elite and growing skill set. GO GET HIM.
Kemba was aging (and had a body giving the signs it was breaking down) with a game that was past its prime. Just not even remotely similar IMO.
These are fair opinions. But if JC’s contract turns albatrossy, many here will cite this thread and the warnings they posted just as you did moments ago re Kemba.
Also, an old frequently injured all-star guard traded last summer has done ok in Phx.
Let’s add Nic Batum to the discussion. Guy couldn’t stay in the lineup on the team where Kemba starred. But he’s kicking ass in the playoffs right now.
All this you saw coming? I think it’s harder than you think.
(06-15-2021, 02:04 PM)Jommybone Wrote: [ -> ]It’s soooooo hard to know. If JC is the best player we can get, we should get him. But a couple years ago we thought that was Kemba. Turns out we couldn’t get him. And he wasn’t the best. Wouldn’t be one bit surprised to see the same thing happen here.
I thought Kemba was the BPA that was gettable flaws and all and Collins or Holmes are probably this years bunch.
As "bad" as Kemba would have been, we would have had a 20 point game per scorer instead of who Delon Wright and Josh Richardson? I guess he would be overpaid but I dunno maybe we win a first round series. The downside would have been this offseason where you might have to give him away to get out of luxury tax hell.
I want to see what he is actually traded for. Like if he ends up being traded without adding picks and they get back usable players (Adams, Bledsoe was one package I saw as an example) then the Celtics might have still come out ahead of the Mavs. If Mavs sign Kawhi we can all say "See they were right all along, long live MBT - may they reign a thousand years"!
My opinion is that cap space doesn't mean shit and so big swings aren't a big deal. Most of the players Mavs have the ability to sign are in the MLE range anyway so as long as you don't sign someone who is completely awful you will probably find a way out.
Imo the Celtics disaster move wasn't Kemba, it was turning down Myles Turner for free. The trade exception they got only netted half a mediocre season of Fournier. I am sure they would like a do-over there.
I should probably add DeRozan as 'technically' gettable as one of the BPA altho I think it would require a similar overpay of at least 30 mil/yr. My suspicion is that the Spurs will take some players back from one of the LA teams for DeRozan.
(06-15-2021, 03:41 PM)StepBackJay Wrote: [ -> ]…
My opinion is that cap space doesn't mean shit and so big swings aren't a big deal. Most of the players Mavs have the ability to sign are in the MLE range anyway so as long as you don't sign someone who is completely awful you will probably find a way out.
…
I think I agree with you. But Kevin Love?
(06-15-2021, 03:02 PM)mvossman Wrote: [ -> ]Agree that this is not a Kemba situation, but I'm not convinced JC is the best we can get. He is an efficient offensive player, but he does not create for others and as far as I can tell he does not create for himself. Isn't that what we have been complaining about with KP? He is basically Maxi on the perimeter and Powell in the paint offensively, and he's not a particular upgrade on defense (he is a better rebounder). I realize this is an oversimplification and the versatility is useful, but I'm not sure a Powell on steroids is the best we can get. Honestly, if we were not taking KP into account and we are paying an asset and the max to get Collins, I would probably rather use that asset to trade for Adams, who is a better fit (because of his defense) with Luka and 10 Mil cheaper.
I kind of liked your thinking in the other thread that Dallas would go this path (Lonzo) or that path (JC). I might add Lowry to the conversation. This whole Bob V. thing puts added pressure to come up with a name guy. But, rather than comment on that post, I’d rather do it here.
Let’s forget what we have and what they cost and what we thinkwe know and just design the guy we want in the front court with Luka. Forget the unattainable names like Jokic, Embiid, Towns, Gobert, Giannis and Davis. Let’s define the archetype. I might have started my description for a team with Luka running the spread PnR with something like Powell in the PnR and Maxi in the corner? I mean, I’d like him to flash into the post occasionally and get a bucket. It wouldn’t kill me if he could ISO efficiently every now and then. But, I don’t need him doing that all the time. Just do the Powell thing well and the Maxi thing well. Give me that and some guys on the perimeter hitting 3’s and we are a top five O for the next 10 years.
The issue is that JC isn’t a perimeter defender, nor is he a shot blocker. He can hold his own as a paint defender, but he isn’t anchoring your D by any means. But, he’s not that different than Powell or the 2021 version of Maxi defensively and we were pretty good the last few months and that was with the crappy version of KP. I’m a huge fan of JC’s diverse offense and I think we just have to figure out the rim protection from somewhere else. Collins has been a net positive the last three years (and it is still a net game when all is said and done). And, he’s super efficient from just about everywhere. His TS% has averaged (AVERAGED) .638 over his four year career. My preference is trade matching if at all possible, but I’m in for the max here. I think we can find a way to make KP/JC work and if we can’t, we move on from KP.
(06-15-2021, 04:28 PM)Jommybone Wrote: [ -> ]I think I agree with you. But Kevin Love?
Fair point. Maybe the lesson learned is if you are going to overpay, then overpay for someone who doesn't have injury concerns, I don't know? CP3 is playing like a top 5 NBA player so like there is no full-proof strategy.
That being said if you are going to overpay then overpaying a younger guy has less risk in that there's still upside that he will get better or overcome injury. KP is in a bad place right now but he's still young enough to regain some value.
If we were to get JC, I think he and KP would probably be a good duo, provided that KP comes back hungry for DPotY again. JC is versatile enough to be whatever he needs to be on offense to make any pairing work.
On the other hand, getting JC and Turner together I think would unlock JC to be whatever he wants to be on offense and defense.
(06-15-2021, 05:18 PM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: [ -> ]I kind of liked your thinking in the other thread that Dallas would go this path (Lonzo) or that path (JC). I might add Lowry to the conversation. This whole Bob V. thing puts added pressure to come up with a name guy. But, rather than comment on that post, I’d rather do it here.
Let’s forget what we have and what they cost and what we thinkwe know and just design the guy we want in the front court with Luka. Forget the unattainable names like Jokic, Embiid, Towns, Gobert, Giannis and Davis. Let’s define the archetype. I might have started my description for a team with Luka running the spread PnR with something like Powell in the PnR and Maxi in the corner? I mean, I’d like him to flash into the post occasionally and get a bucket. It wouldn’t kill me if he could ISO efficiently every now and then. But, I don’t need him doing that all the time. Just do the Powell thing well and the Maxi thing well. Give me that and some guys on the perimeter hitting 3’s and we are a top five O for the next 10 years.
The issue is that JC isn’t a perimeter defender, nor is he a shot blocker. He can hold his own as a paint defender, but he isn’t anchoring your D by any means. But, he’s not that different than Powell or the 2021 version of Maxi defensively and we were pretty good the last few months and that was with the crappy version of KP. I’m a huge fan of JC’s diverse offense and I think we just have to figure out the rim protection from somewhere else. Collins has been a net positive the last three years (and it is still a net game when all is said and done). And, he’s super efficient from just about everywhere. His TS% has averaged (AVERAGED) .638 over his four year career. My preference is trade matching if at all possible, but I’m in for the max here. I think we can find a way to make KP/JC work and if we can’t, we move on from KP.
If I am designing a guy in the front court to match with Luka, defense is a big part of that consideration, especially considering Luka's limitations in that area. My top priority would be a guy who can anchor the D, but also works well with Luka offensively. I don't need that guy running ISOs, I just need him to create legitimate space, either as a shooter or "vertically" as a P&R guy. Its obviously a bonus if he can do both, but I need him to be able to do one or the other. That is why I would prioritize an Adams or a Turner over a Collins.
If we go the trade Maxi for Collins route, we are basically taking the previous years team and replacing Powell with Collins. That team was first overall in offense, but a little below average defensively (and that was with the good version of KP and Powell). Collins undoubtedly makes that offense even better, but he does not really do much for the defense. If we look at the playoff series, we had 3 clear issues: the defense (particularly interior), the offense anytime Luka was off the court, and decision making anytime Luka was doubled. I'm not sure how much Collins contributes to any of that.
If we can't find a way to make KP/JC work, then we move on from KP. Then what? If they don't work, it will be because the interior defense was simply not good enough. At that point we need to trade out KP for a true defensive anchor. The problem there is that most of those guys are not floor spacers, but P&R guys. Putting a P&R guy in the starting lineup basically turns Collins into Maxi. Do we really want to be paying the max for that? If Atlanta lets this guy go, this will be the reason why. With Capella out there he is basically Maxi with the starters and dominates second units with his interior play like Powell did back in the day. There is a reason his production went significantly down when he started playing with Capella, and I am guessing it would be worse if they were not staggering minutes to get significant playing time as the lone big.
I don't have any doubt that Collins would improve the team, and would rather them pull that trigger than do nothing (it would certainly be an improvement over the last two off seasons) but I am just concerned that we would be firing our last big bullet for a guy that does not really address our specific problems. If we end up getting Collins, I would greatly prefer that we figure out a way to pull the trigger for a KP for Turner trade. That would get us our defensive anchor we desperately need, and allow Collins to replace KP offensive production with a much better fit with Luka.