(04-06-2021, 03:03 PM)Mavs2021 Wrote: [ -> ]Yeah and if he goes overseas the Mavs retain his draft rights for another 12 months, so he gains f*** all. If he goes and plays in Spain and wants to re-enter the NBA he´s still blocked by the Mavs. By agreeing to the 2-way contract in December, he becomes a RFA in August and can actually pick his next NBA team, unless the Mavs match the offer. So if the Mavs came to Bey and said listen we need an extra roster spot, would you be willing to sign as a 2-way contract, rather than a full four years (like Terry), then there is an incentive for Bey to do so. 
Just because you hate the way the MBT/RC operate does not mean that a second round pick is going to try and force his way out from the moment he gets the phone call just cause it’s the Mavs.
You know who Tyler Bey, and really any other 2nd round pick wants to play for? Whoever will give them a contract cause they are pretty much just trying to find a place in the league. Bey will sign a contract with whoever will give him one with the most money/years once free agency starts. And if that team isn’t the Mavs, it’s not because he was scheming to get out from day 1, it’s because he needs a job.
Wouldn’t it be great if in a few years we are talking about how we hope some team doesn’t steal Bey away from us because he’s amazing and will have tons of options? It would, but that’s not the situation right now.
(04-06-2021, 04:20 PM)soog Wrote: [ -> ]To do this they would have to get something back of substantial value. What do you think an equivalent return would be for KP?
I'm firmly in the pro-KP camp and believe this team's ceiling is higher if KP got healthy vs banking on a trade return but IF we were to move him, I think Golden State would make the most sense with a Wiggins package. Wiseman and/or the Minny pick could be argued to be a pretty decent return if we moved on without him.
(04-06-2021, 12:20 PM)SkenfromLMF Wrote: [ -> ]I will say that I struggle to see where gutting a starter and a 6th man out of the rotation and trying to find 2 better players AND an MLE with $34 million in space is even doable...
That's sort of shocking to say seeing as how 4/5ths of our starters now make around that much total. I think 34 mil is plenty. I am not saying I am against bringing the gang back. I am saying that chasing a big fish is worth the risk bc it's hard to get from good to great otherwise.
(04-06-2021, 02:52 PM)BasketballJones41 Wrote: [ -> ]I’ve been doing some thinking about what Richardson and Hardaway might get paid this off-season. I may be way off base but KCP and Jordan Clarkson seem like good comps respectively.
KCP vs Jrich: Pope is the better shooter and defender but Richardson is a better play maker. This off-season Pope signed a 3/39 with LA.
Clarkson vs THJ: I honestly don’t really know who’s better between these two. They seem like very similar players. Clarkson just signed a 4/51 with Utah.
Now I know both of them signed team friendly deals and were probably offered more by other teams. So I’m just spitballing but let’s say in a perfect world Jrich and THJ signed similar deals with us, wouldn’t that leave us with about $9 million in Space after clearing their cap holds? Or am I wrong?
I think you are closer than ppl that think these guys are going to get huge money.
(04-06-2021, 04:53 PM)BasketballJones41 Wrote: [ -> ]Even Tim Sr was talking about wanting THJ to resign here long term. That’s another reason I think he’ll take a team friendly deal.
No way THJ takes a team friendly deal. But if the Mavs offer market value I think he takes that over anywhere else. Maybe even a couple of mil less.
I don't think THJ gets anything less than 4/72 this offseason. And to be fair with how he's played he's earned it.
If he shrinks in the playoffs again I can see that number shrinking but as of now he's played his way into a big contract.
(04-06-2021, 05:16 PM)DrMav Wrote: [ -> ]Just because you hate the way the MBT/RC operate does not mean that a second round pick is going to try and force his way out from the moment he gets the phone call just cause it’s the Mavs.
You know who Tyler Bey, and really any other 2nd round pick wants to play for? Whoever will give them a contract cause they are pretty much just trying to find a place in the league. Bey will sign a contract with whoever will give him one with the most money/years once free agency starts. And if that team isn’t the Mavs, it’s not because he was scheming to get out from day 1, it’s because he needs a job.
Wouldn’t it be great if in a few years we are talking about how we hope some team doesn’t steal Bey away from us because he’s amazing and will have tons of options? It would, but that’s not the situation right now.
I merely pointed out that there are advantages to sign a 2-way contract for a rookie. It´s a bet on yourself and gives you more flexibility. KJ McDaniels did the exact same thing and signed a 10/3 deal after his rookie season. Just because this goes over your head doesn´t mean I hate the MBT/RC. If he can find a team that will give him a chance for just 5/2, he´s already made more money than Tyrell Terry in his first three years. If the Mavs match it, he automatically moves up in the team hierarchy due to a higher salary. If it doesn´t get matched by the Mavs, he´s on a team, that wanted him.
(04-06-2021, 06:16 PM)SleepingHero Wrote: [ -> ]No way THJ takes a team friendly deal. But if the Mavs offer market value I think he takes that over anywhere else. Maybe even a couple of mil less.
I don't think THJ gets anything less than 4/72 this offseason. And to be fair with how he's played he's earned it.
If he shrinks in the playoffs again I can see that number shrinking but as of now he's played his way into a big contract.
Do the numbers really matter that much though? Unless it´s dumb money, it doesn´t really matter whether it´s 80/4, 72/4, 64/4 or 56/4. Our capspace will be gone.
It´s a decision for THJ/J-Rich or capspace. I think they´ll find reasonable ground, if they want to stay and the Mavs want them to be here.
(04-06-2021, 05:49 PM)StepBackJay Wrote: [ -> ]That's sort of shocking to say seeing as how 4/5ths of our starters now make around that much total. I think 34 mil is plenty. I am not saying I am against bringing the gang back. I am saying that chasing a big fish is worth the risk bc it's hard to get from good to great otherwise.
I don't think that fish exists this off-season. I see $34 million going to the '21 version of Alan Houston and sellers remorse in letting THJ and Richardson walk.
Donnie's strength is making the trade and I would like to see what he can get from Philadelphia (or Northeast team) for Reddick in an S&T.
(04-06-2021, 05:55 PM)StepBackJay Wrote: [ -> ]I think you are closer than ppl that think these guys are going to get huge money.
I hope I am. It would sure make building a contender a lot easier.
(04-06-2021, 06:42 PM)SkenfromLMF Wrote: [ -> ]I don't think that fish exists this off-season. I see $34 million going to the '21 version of Alan Houston and sellers remorse in letting THJ and Richardson walk.
Donnie's strength is making the trade and I would like to see what he can get from Philadelphia (or Northeast team) for Reddick in an S&T.
Mavs I think want Collins and are willing to throw a lot of money at him. I think it could happen bc ATL is less convinced that Collins is worth huge money.
If I were to bet, there's a better chance of THJ returning than JR. JR really needs to get his offense going and have a good playoffs. Sure he was super hot last night but even with that he's only 34% from 3 for the year and the rest of his offense isn't great either tbh.
I trust that Donnie is not going to overpay for role players. There are plenty of directions he could go including trades, S&T's, and so on.
(04-06-2021, 06:16 PM)SleepingHero Wrote: [ -> ]No way THJ takes a team friendly deal. But if the Mavs offer market value I think he takes that over anywhere else. Maybe even a couple of mil less.
I don't think THJ gets anything less than 4/72 this offseason. And to be fair with how he's played he's earned it.
If he shrinks in the playoffs again I can see that number shrinking but as of now he's played his way into a big contract.
If it was last off-season or the 2022 off-season I would agree with you. But there’s only 6 teams with the cap space to offer him something like that this year. And I don’t see any of them doing so.
(04-06-2021, 06:41 PM)Mavs2021 Wrote: [ -> ]Do the numbers really matter that much though? Unless it´s dumb money, it doesn´t really matter whether it´s 80/4, 72/4, 64/4 or 56/4. Our capspace will be gone.
It´s a decision for THJ/J-Rich or capspace. I think they´ll find reasonable ground, if they want to stay and the Mavs want them to be here.
It does matter because you want guys that are assets you can trade if you need to.
(04-06-2021, 06:16 PM)SleepingHero Wrote: [ -> ]No way THJ takes a team friendly deal. But if the Mavs offer market value I think he takes that over anywhere else. Maybe even a couple of mil less.
I don't think THJ gets anything less than 4/72 this offseason. And to be fair with how he's played he's earned it.
If he shrinks in the playoffs again I can see that number shrinking but as of now he's played his way into a big contract.
Don’t under estimate the impact a dysfunctional work environment can have on a person. He went looking for his payday last time and it ended up getting him on the Knicks where he was hated and thought of as dead weight on a bloated contract.
As someone who recently quit my job to take another job that was a demotion and a pay cut, I can joyfully tell you it was one of the best decisions I’ve ever made. A dysfunctional work place can help a person decide what is truly important to them.
Put me down for 4/52
(04-06-2021, 06:16 PM)SleepingHero Wrote: [ -> ]No way THJ takes a team friendly deal. But if the Mavs offer market value I think he takes that over anywhere else. Maybe even a couple of mil less.
I don't think THJ gets anything less than 4/72 this offseason. And to be fair with how he's played he's earned it.
If he shrinks in the playoffs again I can see that number shrinking but as of now he's played his way into a big contract.
What?
How many number four guys on not-quite-contending teams get $18 mil/year?
New York signed Hardaway to be their best or second-best player. Overpaid him. I like Hardaway, but if he isn't paid ***less*** than this last deal - even a little bit less - nice knowin' ya.
Just to clarify, I used to talk a lot about players as "the nth best player on a contending team." As I said, I like Timmy. He has saved our butts multiple times. But I consider him at the level of a 5th-best player on a championship team. (Brunson is in 4th-best range with a bullet)
I'm a historic THJ hater but he's probably a 4/$72 guy in my opinion also that might take 4/$64 because he likes it here.
(04-06-2021, 09:08 PM)Scott41theMavs Wrote: [ -> ]What?
How many number four guys on not-quite-contending teams get $18 mil/year?
Gary Harris got 4/$84
I think all of our conversations about this offseason are pretty moot unless Luka and KP magically fall in unlikely basketball love before or during the playoffs, because KP is getting moved for whatever if that doesn't happen. We have no idea right now what the return will be and what effect it will have on our cap situation. My guesses:
1) THJ is back next year at a lower salary - a mil or two haircut per year from his last salary.
2) JRich is back, opted-in if he didn't improve from his current play, and at a very slightly higher salary if he did. Because we have no choice but to keep Duffy happy. I agree with the post today that the great benefit of JRich is that he changed our culture. That's a good thing, and worth keeping on the roster if we can.
3) Brunson is still here.
4) I hope WCS is still here, but perhaps the MBT will be as dumb as many fans are. An upgrade is going to be hard to find on him for backup center if we traded KP.
5) Melli is brought back.
6) Several of our rooks are gone in trade.
7) I hope Maxi is still here, but he's our best trade asset aside from KP. Because Brunson isn't a trade asset.
8) Powell is still here because LOL.
9) We get a nice player (likely frontcourt) and a somewhat nice additional asset for KP. I wouldn't be surprised if it isn't for Collins in a three-team deal, with us getting a small tip from the team getting KP and the bulk of their sent assets going to Atlanta.
10) The rest of roster is filled out with a very good MLE player and a decent piece with the small amount of cap room we likely have left over.
(04-06-2021, 09:23 PM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]And is overpaid.
THJ is unrestricted. Almost every single one of them gets overpaid. That's the whole deal with free agency.
Bogdanovic got 18m/yr. I've been expecting THJ to come in a little below that, but I wouldn't be surprised (or disappointed) if he got an equivalent offer. Clarkson was not playing nearly this well when he got his deal so I don't believe he's a good comparison any longer.
(04-06-2021, 09:08 PM)Scott41theMavs Wrote: [ -> ]What?
How many number four guys on not-quite-contending teams get $18 mil/year?
New York signed Hardaway to be their best or second-best player. Overpaid him. I like Hardaway, but if he isn't paid ***less*** than this last deal - even a little bit less - nice knowin' ya.
Just to clarify, I used to talk a lot about players as "the nth best player on a contending team." As I said, I like Timmy. He has saved our butts multiple times. But I consider him at the level of a 5th-best player on a championship team. (Brunson is in 4th-best range with a bullet)
It sure feels like THJ will be back next year. Just seems like a good fit.
I researched some player/contract comps:
- Terrance Ross who got 13/yr following a good shooting year from 3 in 2019 summer
- Joe Harris who is a better player is at 16 mil (great value)
- Buddy Hield who has a longer track record of consistent shooting outside and scoring in general is though of as overpaid at 24 mil (prob is)
- Evan Fournier is in the same boat since he hasn't had a new deal in a while we don't know his market value
- Eric Gordon for 4/75 at 31 (only 54 guaranteed) but still a terrible contract. He is a good scorer for his career, at 16 mil this year and going up.
- Bog in ATL just got 4/72 and isn't a bad comp. He has similar production but you could argue THJ is better.
- Will Barton signed 4/53 in 2018.
- Bojan Bog signed 4/73 in in 2019 after a really strong year career in Indy. I think the only thing that discounted him a bit was his age (tho THJ is just 1 year shy of 30).
So ya I have been thinking THJ would be coming in much less than some of the numbers I have seen but now I thinking 4/72 is the benchmark.