2020-2021 ROSTER TALK: Archived

[Mavs2019]

So basically you want to blow it up and trade our 2nd-6th best player for a bunch of late picks and spare change?

No thanks!

1. Who says they´ll be late picks.
2. What are the projections on the picks that just landed the Nets Harden.
3. If those 2nd to 6th best players land us the 8th worst record, then we need to talk about it.
4. Furthermore all these guys want to get paid too and soon, so...
5. Do you want to give THJ/Richardson $17M each, DFS $12M on top of Doncic´s max and...
6. Be married to this roster for the next four years.

That´s the asset assessment game the rest of the league plays.

I know we are all Mavs fan(atic)s, but at some point you need to find reasons for our performance over the last decade.

It´s not possible to have a 359-376 record over the last decade with no play-off series win, and not have problems somewhere, whether it´s the owner, the GM, the coach, the players.

You simply cannot be good at all these positions and come away with these end results.

[Omega_Supreme]

Step 1: THJ+DFS for OPJ

Step 2: James Johnson+future pick for Aaron Gordon

STARTERS / 2nd UNIT / RESERVES

Luka / Brunson
JRich / Burke / Terry
OPJ / Green / Hinton / Iwundu
Gordon / Maxi
KP / Powell / WCS / Boban

What's not to like?

1. Who says they´ll be late picks.
2. What are the projections on the picks that just landed the Nets Harden.
3. If those 2nd to 6th best players land us the 8th worst record, then we need to talk about it.
4. Furthermore all these guys want to get paid too and soon, so...
5. Do you want to give THJ/Richardson $17M each, DFS $12M on top of Doncic´s max and...
6. Be married to this roster for the next four years.

That´s the asset assessment game the rest of the league plays.

I know we are all Mavs fan(atic)s, but at some point you need to find reasons for our performance over the last decade.

It´s not possible to have a 359-376 record over the last decade with no play-off series win, and not have problems somewhere, whether it´s the owner, the GM, the coach, the players.

You simply cannot be good at all these positions and come away with these end results.

100%

I think the issue is all of the above...I do not know how much influence Cuban has on chasing stars and if that handicaps the move Donnie can make but we have been doing the same shit for a decade. I have seen teams transform rosters overnight over the cap. 

As for KP, the Mavs need to seriously consider how fair it is to Luka to have his number 2 guy or Robin not always practicing and sitting out games. They should be hitting their stride right now as a duo yet here we are still waiting on KP to his rhythm. 

I seriously consider trading KP and moving on as the risk out weighs the reward at this point. Luka deserves better...

[Scott41theMavs]

Step 1: THJ+DFS for OPJ

Step 2: James Johnson+future pick for Aaron Gordon

STARTERS / 2nd UNIT / RESERVES

Luka / Brunson
JRich / Burke / Terry
OPJ / Green / Hinton / Iwundu
Gordon / Maxi
KP / Powell / WCS / Boban

What's not to like?

1. Who says they´ll be late picks.
2. What are the projections on the picks that just landed the Nets Harden.
3. If those 2nd to 6th best players land us the 8th worst record, then we need to talk about it.
4. Furthermore all these guys want to get paid too and soon, so...
5. Do you want to give THJ/Richardson $17M each, DFS $12M on top of Doncic´s max and...
6. Be married to this roster for the next four years.

That´s the asset assessment game the rest of the league plays.

I know we are all Mavs fan(atic)s, but at some point you need to find reasons for our performance over the last decade.

It´s not possible to have a 359-376 record over the last decade with no play-off series win, and not have problems somewhere, whether it´s the owner, the GM, the coach, the players.

You simply cannot be good at all these positions and come away with these end results.

100%

I think the issue is all of the above...I do not know how much influence Cuban has on chasing stars and if that handicaps the move Donnie can make but we have been doing the same shit for a decade. I have seen teams transform rosters overnight over the cap.

As for KP, the Mavs need to seriously consider how fair it is to Luka to have his number 2 guy or Robin not always practicing and sitting out games. They should be hitting their stride right now as a duo yet here we are still waiting on KP to his rhythm.

I seriously consider trading KP and moving on as the risk out weighs the reward at this point. Luka deserves better...

...but he's at the nadir of his trade value... I'm with Kammrath - this summer at the earliest.

[dirkfansince1998]

Mavs are stuck with KP. The trade that needs to happen is Johnson + x for another legit starter.

[Scott41theMavs]

Mavs are stuck with KP. The trade that needs to happen is Johnson + x for another legit starter.

I have this sense that RC would veto that, because it's pretty clear that he views JJ as the third best creator on the team.

[cow]

I have this sense that RC would veto that, because it's pretty clear that he views JJ as the third best creator on the team.

Carlisle's probably not wrong but the drop off after Luka and Jalen is steep.

[SleepingHero]

...but he's at the nadir of his trade value... I'm with Kammrath - this summer at the earliest.

---

I have this sense that RC would veto that, because it's pretty clear that he views JJ as the third best creator on the team.

Sometimes RC needs to be ignored. Sure you sometimes get a move like Rondo.

Other times you force him to start Deshawn Stevenson.

[dirkfansince1998]

Question is what KP can net in a trade? What is his trade value? Less than what the Mavs paid to get him?

[Mavs2019]

Question is what KP can net in a trade? What is his trade value? Less than what the Mavs paid to get him?

Well unfortunately this is exactly the trap you should not fall into. You have to consider what his value is now/in the future, not what it was at the time of the trade. That´s the thinking that probably gets Powell paid for the rest of his life.

Also regarding my earlier trade proposal. I was just spitballing, but since we speak about it. You cannot look at this as an isolated event in the sense that THJ+Richardson are in the deal, too. What if they walk in the summer for NOTHING. The Mavs have no control over them.

Detour: That´s what the Mavs have always done. Never take on money for picks and always allow players to walk for nothing. That was the real failure of Plan Powder. Every summer you missed out on your FA targets (okay it happened), the 2nd step should have been to eat bad contracts for picks and build up asset capital. Not sign some 2nd or 3rd rate leftovers.


Back to the trade. Now suddenly the trade becomes

Porzingis for Bledsoe + Adams + Reddick (with the immediate cap relief) + three unprotected 1st round picks.

That looks pretty good to me. It even improves on the Knicks deal on paper. 


When Beal extended his contract, he was promised to pick and choose his trade destination. If you can get five additional unprotected 1st round picks, then this will be sufficient imho to acquire Beal on an expiring contract, when we also have the capspace to sign him outright. Same for Lavine.

I don´t see a direct line to Beal with our current picks and players. The Wizards have no interest in Kleber or DFS, but they are pretty interesting for a legit contender, who needs the bolster their depth with cheap rotational players. 

Of course doing such deals right now seems counter intuitive to build a contender, but that´s one of the biggest Mavs weaknesses. Always thinking summer to summer rather than in mid and long-term windows.

[dirkfansince1998]

Well unfortunately this is exactly the trap you should not fall into. You have to consider what his value is now/in the future, not what it was at the time of the trade. That´s the thinking that probably gets Powell paid for the rest of his life.

I am using it as some kind of benchmark. I don´t even want to start the discussion what to do with him or if the Mavs should go for assets or win now pieces.
The Mavs gave two expirings and absorbed the last two years of THJs contract (at that point considered to be one of the worst in the league ) + Lees last year.
Overall more than 30m in bad salary in the first year. Another 19m in year two.
They gave up a player that at the time of the trade was one of the better prospects in the league. A lottery pick in his 2nd season.
They gave up two 1st round picks.
At the time of the trade most people were suprised because they thought KP had more value but circumstances obviously matter and the Knicks had to trade him. Knicks-KP relationship was broken beyond repair.

Right now most of us agree that his trade value is approaching rock bottom. Is rock bottom less than the Mavs paid for him?

Just an example of similar value this season (I know some of you love Drummond but it is more about the expiring contract in this case):

 KP + Powell ( bad contract) + Iwundu --> Drummond (big expiring) + Okoro (lottery pick) + 2 1st round picks


Fair value? Not enough? To much?

[aguiar95]

I'd go with a simple J. Johnson + J. Green + futre protected 1st for A. Gordon. Good ball handler, defender and rebounder still young (25) with great athleticism.

Doncic/Brunson
Hardaway/Burke
Richardson/Finney-Smith
Gordon/Kleber
Porzingis/Powell (WCS)

Burke and Powell would be removed come playoff time.

[omahen]

Fair value? Not enough? To much?

I think it totally depends on how the trade partner sees KP. If he sees him as his bubble version, than 2 FRP are ok. If he thinks this year version is reality, than you are trading Wiggins level contract. I think at this point KP is associated with so many risks, not a lot of teams will see him as the bubble version. If he starts playing again like he did in the bubble - do you really want to trade him then?

[omahen]

I'd go with a simple J. Johnson + J. Green + futre protected 1st for A. Gordon. Good ball handler, defender and rebounder still young (25) with great athleticism.

Gordon is nice, but shooting is our main issue by far imho. OPJ and Fournier should be available at not a very high price as none of them will likely stay with their current teams next season. Both would help a lot in that department. Fournier is much better 6th man than Burke. He could serve as both THJ insurance on his cold nights as well as part of supper offensive unit when needed with both THJ and Fournier on the floor. As a 6th man he would feast on bench units as he is much better facilitator as THJ. Johnson+FRP should be enough. Perhaps one of the rookies included.

Porter adds defense to his 3pt shooting and would be extremely better version of Johnson in the current rotation. Due to his contract another almost 10 million is needed besides Johnson to match salaries. Powell+Johnson+FRP looks reasonable to me.

[aguiar95]

Gordon is nice, but shooting is our main issue by far imho. OPJ and Fournier should be available at not a very high price as none of them will likely stay with their current teams next season. Both would help a lot in that department. Fournier is much better 6th man than Burke. He could serve as both THJ insurance on his cold nights as well as part of supper offensive unit when needed with both THJ and Fournier on the floor. As a 6th man he would feast on bench units as he is much better facilitator as THJ. Johnson+FRP should be enough. Perhaps one of the rookies included.

Porter adds defense to his 3pt shooting and would be extremely better version of Johnson in the current rotation. Due to his contract another almost 10 million is needed besides Johnson to match salaries. Powell+Johnson+FRP looks reasonable to me.

Love OPJ, if Bulls decide they don't want to make the playoffs, I'd be all over that. Maybe he gets bought out? Also, I know everyone is mad at KP and wanting to trade him, how about trading J-Rich if he doesn't click till TDL (Rich/Green for Gordon)?

[ThisIStheYear]

Between Richardson, THJ, and Johnson, the Mavs have $50 million in expirings (well, I suppose Richardson has been so dismal maybe he takes the player option for a prove it year, but not likely). The Mavs need to make their move now — get a head start on Luka supporting cast version 3.0.

I admit I was wrong. I thought this crew had something coming into the year. They have shown no signs of hope. It’s important to guard against anchoring bias and the sunk cost fallacy. The quicker the rebuild starts, the better.

[omahen]

Love OPJ, if Bulls decide they don't want to make the playoffs, I'd be all over that. Maybe he gets bought out?

I think the value of trading for him is getting his bird rights. Because of his high salary, there won't be many suitors. I mean, which contender has 25 million of salary available for trade for just a decent rotation player?

[StepBackJay]

I'd go with a simple J. Johnson + J. Green + futre protected 1st for A. Gordon. Good ball handler, defender and rebounder still young (25) with great athleticism.

Doncic/Brunson
Hardaway/Burke
Richardson/Finney-Smith
Gordon/Kleber
Porzingis/Powell (WCS)

Burke and Powell would be removed come playoff time.

Works for me

[StepBackJay]

I think the value of trading for him is getting his bird rights. Because of his high salary, there won't be many suitors. I mean, which contender has 25 million of salary available for trade for just a decent rotation player?

At this point I'd love a KP for LaVine + WCJ trade or a KP + THJ for LaVine + WCJ + OPJ trade if that was on the table. I don't think the Mavs would pull the trigger on that type of deal this year but I would be interested.

[jesusshuttlesworth82]

Fair value? Not enough? To much?

As of today, I think KP's trade value is 0. That contract, another knee injury, and his terrible play.

Even if he plays like he did in the bubble, I dont think he has much trade value.  No rebuilding team wants him as a centerpiece.  It would have to be a contender that has $30+ million in salary to trade for him.  

Maybe a swap of bad deals like Kemba Walker + a pick/asset.

[KillerLeft]

As of today, I think KP's trade value is 0. That contract, another knee injury, and his terrible play.

This is probably pretty close to accurate. I don't know if it's "0" but it's definitely nowhere close to a level where the Mavs could improve their team by trading him. 

To trade him NOW would be to clear that contract from the books and basically start over, imo. I really don't think there's a way to change him out for other players that keep the Mavs on their current "lower playoff team getting better" timeline. I think the only way that story has a good ending is for KP to start playing better here and stay healthy for a long time.