2020-2021 ROSTER TALK: Archived

[F Gump]

Good idea. Kemba only has 2 years left so its not end of the world. Let me be extremely optimistic and build from your idea:

Bos: KP (KP has more value than Kemba, so assets have to go out)
Ind: Kemba, Maxi, Bos assets (Kemba replaces Brogdon, Maxi replaces Turner), 2027 Dal FRP
Dal: Turner, Brogdon 

Spend cap space on PF (Markkanen?) and THJ

This idea is a complete non-starter. It solves the issue that Dallas would have no desire to be stuck with Kemba. It doesn't solve the issue that Indy wouldn't want to be stuck with him and that ghastly contract either.

[StrandedOnBeauboisHill]

This idea is a complete non-starter. It solves the issue that Dallas would have no desire to be stuck with Kemba. It doesn't solve the issue that Indy wouldn't want to be stuck with him and that ghastly contract either.

Would depend on what the Boston assets that are included are.  If they really want to move him they're going to have to attach plenty I would think.  If you see it as taking on Kemba for 2 first round picks (one being ours) and Maxi then it looks a little better.

[F Gump]

Regardless of who's right - regardless of just what KP's value is now, high or low, it's very likely to be even higher a year from now. I think you probably disagree, but want to be clear.

FIFY, as to what is "very likely."

[StrandedOnBeauboisHill]

One thing as it applies to moving KP.  I don't see us wanting to move both Maxi and KP unless someone like Turner is definitely coming back.  

If we move on from KP then we'll probably go a different direction than a 5 out offense being our go to set up but at the same time, I want to make sure Carlisle still has that card to play in playoff matchups.  Regardless of how you feel about KPs overall performance, his spacing still makes an impact and we need to keep that in mind.

[ItsGoTime]

FIFY, as to what is "very likely."

I think beginning of next year it will for sure very likely be higher. It goes back down when he gets injured next year. How serious and where the injury is determines the value dip. If he doesn't get injured next year, his value skyrockets as I believe he'll probably play to his All Star capability.

[StepBackJay]

I think beginning of next year it will for sure very likely be higher. It goes back down when he gets injured next year. How serious and where the injury is determines the value dip. If he doesn't get injured next year, his value skyrockets as I believe he'll probably play to his All Star capability.

I don't think so. In my view the KP you see now is kind of what you get. Pretty good offensive player but not a great fit in Mavs system that really just wants rim rollers or shooters from the 5 position offensively (no post-ups, at least not from KP). Defensively he probably won't be. any worse than he is now but I am not expecting much improvement and that's a big issue. Finally he doesn't want to be here and gets paid way too much for his production. Even if he's healthy now, chances are he won't be healthy later so Mavs should cash in while they have a chance. He is not going to be an all-star player for the Mavs anytime soon.

[Omega_Supreme]

“Turner may be attainable without KP”.    How?

I guess you could move on from THJ.  Who do you target for something in that financial neighborhood.  Fournier is available.  Norman Powell may be.  Do they fit the bill?  I don’t think that is enough money for the elder statesmen PG’s or Ball.  What is left?  I don’t disagree that we could use someone who is a better secondary creator than THJ.  But, who and how?  And, as we’ve seen twice now, how do we know they will fit any better than Hardaway?

The Mavs have expiring contracts and cap room
Indiana is on the books next year for 119 million and cannot improve their team

You have to sit and ask yourself does a swap of Brogdon and Turner for KP make them a better team or worse team. 

We may be able to get Turner similar to Evan Fournier a future first and maybe a marginal piece like WCS and Terry. 

Indiana may prefer the cap room more than taking on 3 years of KP at 30 million.

[mvossman]

DJJ is useful as a defensive wing specialist as long as you don't have multiple bad offensive players on the floor with him.   Really not that much different from JRich.  

Yeah, the follow up would be signing a big body big in free agency, of which there should be plenty available and relatively affordable.   Zeller, Drummond, Lopez, Theis, Willy H. etc.  Or you could see if you could chase Holmes depending on what THJ resigns for and leaves you with.

PG - Luka/Brunson
SG - McCollum/Green/Burke
SF - THJ/DJJ
PF - DoDo/Powell
C - Holmes/MLE
Designated Luka Bestie - Boban

That team has no chance to compete due to defensive limitations.  I don't think you can start 3 below average backcourt folks, and DoDo at the 4 is not above average either.  I recognize that the frontcourt is more important from a defensive standpoint, but Holmes is not going to make up for all of that.

[mvossman]

I don't think so. In my view the KP you see now is kind of what you get. Pretty good offensive player but not a great fit in Mavs system that really just wants rim rollers or shooters from the 5 position offensively (no post-ups, at least not from KP). Defensively he probably won't be. any worse than he is now but I am not expecting much improvement and that's a big issue. Finally he doesn't want to be here and gets paid way too much for his production. Even if he's healthy now, chances are he won't be healthy later so Mavs should cash in while they have a chance. He is not going to be an all-star player for the Mavs anytime soon.

I'm not sure why you would think that.  He was a much better player last year (mostly due to defense) especially as the year went on.  We see players all the time have a rough year due to injuries and then come back the following year looking like they did prior, especially at his age.  It's possible that he has reached some accumulation of injuries such that he will never be the same again, but you would not expect that to be the case from a standard meniscus tear on a 25 year old.  I realize his size presents a fairly unique situation but I would argue it more likely that next year (after a full healthy off season) he is closer to second half last year than this year.

That player is still not a perfect fit with Luka and may not be worth the max, but a much better (defensive) version than we have seen this year.  I agree with the original post that his value will likely go up next year until/unless he incurs another significant injury.

All that being said, it still might make sense to trade him this off season.  It will depend on how disgruntled he is and how much we can get for him.  I think he will go up in value next year (at least for a while) but we will have more options to move him this off season as we can operate under the cap if necessary.

[HanspardsShowerVoice]

That team has no chance to compete due to defensive limitations.  I don't think you can start 3 below average backcourt folks, and DoDo at the 4 is not above average either.  I recognize that the frontcourt is more important from a defensive standpoint, but Holmes is not going to make up for all of that.

I hear you, but I'm really starting to re-evaluate how I look at defense.   I haven't really put a firm finger on it, but it's like .... this Clippers series ... I've been hearing how great Patrick Beverley and Zubac are on defense for years, and they're absolutely unplayable in this series specifically because of their defense.  And that's mostly due to the greatness of Luka and what a mismatch nightmare he is  .. but every contending team has their freak that can find their mismatch and exploit it.   The Clippers were supposed to be the 1 team that can absolutely match up and shut down any team on defense in theory ... they're just loaded with elite defenders and switchable long wings.   And ultimately, when the rubber meets the road in the playoffs, it means nothing.    The Hardens, Lukas, KDs, etc. that you have to get through to get to a Championship still get the shots they want, when they want.   So some of these high level defenders are overrated, or how we think about defense is overrated or re-evaluate how we think about defense.   Maybe it's more about having defensive versatility than just being a high level defender for your position.   Because Patrick Beverley is (supposed to be) a high level defending point guard, and he's getting lit up like a Christmas Tree because he's having to guard a 6'7" 250 ball handler.   To me, offense is the bare minimum requirement, because you got to keep pace with these freaks and match the shot for  shot.

[Scott41theMavs]

I don't know; given all of the ball strips I've seen the Clippers do in this series, I'd say their defense is pretty good.

[DanSchwartzgan]

The Mavs have expiring contracts and cap room
Indiana is on the books next year for 119 million and cannot improve their team

You have to sit and ask yourself does a swap of Brogdon and Turner for KP make them a better team or worse team. 

We may be able to get Turner similar to Evan Fournier a future first and maybe a marginal piece like WCS and Terry. 

Indiana may prefer the cap room more than taking on 3 years of KP at 30 million.

I know it is hard to follow with so many conversations going on, but the Dirkfan post I responded to (and my post) pretty clearly had KP going to a third team.  There is no fit in Indy that pairs KP with Sabonis.  I realize there are other ideas floating around that sends KP to Indy for two of their three best players, but that wasn’t what I posted.

Turner is NOT going to be traded for space, a 2025 pick and our former second rounder who didn’t play a lick last season.

[KillerLeft]

FIFY, as to what is "very likely."

I just don't see how it's rational to expect his value to go up. I mean, it IS very possible, but based on the trends we've seen all season, I would say the opposite is infinitely more likely.

[StepBackJay]

I don't know; given all of the ball strips I've seen the Clippers do in this series, I'd say their defense is pretty good.

Yup and just like at the club, all KP does is watch the strips.

[StepBackJay]

That player is still not a perfect fit with Luka and may not be worth the max, but a much better (defensive) version than we have seen this year.  I agree with the original post that his value will likely go up next year until/unless he incurs another significant injury.

I just think the threat of injury is one of the major reasons to move on. He is a constant injury risk, doesn't fit with the offense, struggles on defense, does not have a good relationship with Luka. I don't get the sense that he really likes Rick either. This is really the best time to move him. He has talent, is coming off a good offensive year, is still young and could be productive maybe in the right system.

For the Mavs the fit isn't there especially at max money. It's sad watching him not really do a whole lot. Luka is up against 2 actual stars in KL and PG. KP has been reduced to a shooter. It's just not worth it to keep him any longer. Now is the time to move on.

[dirkfansince1998]

We love to talk about simple KP trades but haven´t mentioned the nuclear option. Who is the best player the Mavs can get for KP + all remaining 1sts, picks swaps, assets like DFS or Brunson?

[ItsGoTime]

We love to talk about simple KP trades but haven´t mentioned the nuclear option. Who is the best player the Mavs can get for KP + all remaining 1sts, picks swaps, assets like DFS or Brunson?

Been wondering if Lillard is available if we had the assets. Can't imagine they would think to trade him and not sell off the whole team though, which makes our package a no go cause the young guys aren't good enough to build around and the older guys are too old and not good enough and we don't have the draft capital.


I would love to see something like that though. I also would like to see DFS WITH RoCo, even if it's not on this team.

[StepBackJay]

We love to talk about simple KP trades but haven´t mentioned the nuclear option. Who is the best player the Mavs can get for KP + all remaining 1sts, picks swaps, assets like DFS or Brunson?

I don't really think adding all that stuff together gets you a star. The biggest names that are sort of available one way or another are Butler, CJ, Derozan and Lowry. I don't include guys like Beal bc I don't think even the kitchen sink would get him.

If you threw stuff at Miami for Butler and gave him a max extension then maybe?

[Jason Terry]

I hear you, but I'm really starting to re-evaluate how I look at defense.   I haven't really put a firm finger on it, but it's like .... this Clippers series ... I've been hearing how great Patrick Beverley and Zubac are on defense for years, and they're absolutely unplayable in this series specifically because of their defense.  And that's mostly due to the greatness of Luka and what a mismatch nightmare he is  .. but every contending team has their freak that can find their mismatch and exploit it.   The Clippers were supposed to be the 1 team that can absolutely match up and shut down any team on defense in theory ... they're just loaded with elite defenders and switchable long wings.   And ultimately, when the rubber meets the road in the playoffs, it means nothing.    The Hardens, Lukas, KDs, etc. that you have to get through to get to a Championship still get the shots they want, when they want.   So some of these high level defenders are overrated, or how we think about defense is overrated or re-evaluate how we think about defense.   Maybe it's more about having defensive versatility than just being a high level defender for your position.   Because Patrick Beverley is (supposed to be) a high level defending point guard, and he's getting lit up like a Christmas Tree because he's having to guard a 6'7" 250 ball handler.   To me, offense is the bare minimum requirement, because you got to keep pace with these freaks and match the shot for  shot.

Nice post. I’m there with you and think there are many who are questioning how to see the game now that it has evolved even more. I think the real focus should be put on the regular season and playoffs being two separate sports. You play totally different from the regular season. Suddenly only 8 guys are worth playing. It’s all about matchups and adjustments. Every coach on the sideline last night talking nothing but defense in the huddle. Yet the offense has become different/easier around the league. It seems that the real two way players are at a premium. Harder to get by as a one way specialist now. Why a guy like Batum will be so valuable this offseason 

As far as defense though. There’s not much being played league wide. It almost feels like Luka is a Peyton Manning type player and we are in some era where the league will need some time to adjust to the offensive euro invasion and every team in the NBA playing Nellie Ball. Not to mention the huge leap nba front offices have taken over the past several years. Really exciting times. Is defense more valuable because it’s rare or is offense more valuable because it’s a necessity? 

I kinda lean to team defense being more valuable than individuals. It’s become easier to exploit certain players offensively so having a stable of players who can always see the court in the playoffs seems important. Guys that can guard multiple positions are key

[Jason Terry]

We love to talk about simple KP trades but haven´t mentioned the nuclear option. Who is the best player the Mavs can get for KP + all remaining 1sts, picks swaps, assets like DFS or Brunson?

Give it one more year option: 
Draft day 2022. KP and 3 FRP’s for Jokic after he demands a trade to Dallas

Needs to go now option:
KP, Brunson, Green for Jaylen Brown and bad contract

Best 2 players we could hope for: 
KP, Brunson, Green for Brogdon and Turner

Best possible option: 
KP for Kawhi in a sign and trade