2020-2021 ROSTER TALK: Archived

[JamesConway]

Total minutes played this season:

James Johnson 504
Josh Green 253
Tyler Bey 32

I fully agree that player development does not exclusively happen in-game (has anybody argued that?) but the difference in numbers is just too glaring for me to give the Mavs some slack here. 

No, I think they aren’t doing a good job developing those guys. 

Especially Bey‘s case is hard to understand. He didn’t even play 10% of Johnson‘s minutes despite the latter performing rather poorly throughout the entire season and both being forward-types. 

Also Green‘s minutes have come „by accident“ for the most part during the covid-period. Without he probably also sees less than 100 minutes up until game 40+

[KillerLeft]

I've read enough of you to not take things personally with you esp. 

[JamesConway]

THIS. Internal development of talent is essential if the Mavs are going to reach their potential as an organization.

What is your stance on the Mavs‘ handling of the rookies minutes? Especially regarding Bey? Do you think they are doing a poor/solid/good job?

I‘d call it poor. The total minutes played are - sry @KL/Luvr/Fif - beyond defendable Imo and I think all parties involved would have been better off by just trading the picks for instant help or future assets down the road (to stagger for a bigger deal).

[StrandedOnBeauboisHill]

Total minutes played this season:

James Johnson 504
Josh Green 253
Tyler Bey 32

I fully agree that player development does not exclusively happen in-game (has anybody argued that?) but the difference in numbers is just too glaring for me to give the Mavs some slack here. 

No, I think they aren’t doing a good job developing those guys. 

Especially Bey‘s case is hard to understand. He didn’t even play 10% of Johnson‘s minutes despite the latter performing rather poorly throughout the entire season and both being forward-types. 

Also Green‘s minutes have come „by accident“ for the most part during the covid-period. Without he probably also sees less than 100 minutes up until game 40+

I can understand some angst about Green's minutes, especially when Iwundu was getting spot minutes after the covid timeline but I think in Bey's case there's a lack of trust in him reliably spacing the floor at the NBA level and I think those concerns have plenty of merit.  I also think that those Iwundu stretches recently could have just been us showcasing him for the deadline.

It's funny because I think some of these rookies would have ended up getting more minutes if we didn't go through the covid stretch.  If you assume our record would have been better if we had a legitimate roster during that month and felt a little more secure about our spot in the playoffs then we probably wouldn't be playing such a short rotation today and getting a better look at those guys.  

To me, it's always been a case by case basis with Rick and rookies so I feel like there's something he's seeing in practice that we aren't that makes him uncomfortable using those guys in game time situations and I choose to trust that decision making.

[fifteenth]

Total minutes played this season:

James Johnson 504
Josh Green 253
Tyler Bey 32

I fully agree that player development does not exclusively happen in-game (has anybody argued that?) but the difference in numbers is just too glaring for me to give the Mavs some slack here. 

No, I think they aren’t doing a good job developing those guys. 

Especially Bey‘s case is hard to understand. He didn’t even play 10% of Johnson‘s minutes despite the latter performing rather poorly throughout the entire season and both being forward-types. 

Also Green‘s minutes have come „by accident“ for the most part during the covid-period. Without he probably also sees less than 100 minutes up until game 40+

The argument that development can't take place much outside of games has been made in the past. 

Am I wrong? I thought Green played a good bit at the beginning of the season, pre-team-covid. 

I'm not trying to change your opinion. Yours is as good as mine. Opinions are pretty much what I have. But, "x minutes is not enough minutes for our rookies" seems really subjective. In my imagination, the coaches have a methodology for how to develop a player, and specific thoughts about how game time fits in to that. What's your (or others here, please weigh in) methodology for deciding how many minutes a rookie "should" play. 

I'm not saying it's wrong to have an opinion based on feel. But the "rookies aren't playing enough" is thrown out enough that it would be helpful if we could hash out what we're using to come up with that claim.

*edit*

Let me push back on myself, before you have to. I don't think I have my "methodology" defined either. :-) So that's were someone could say that our opinions are kinda based on whether or not we trust the coaching staff.

I guess I'll just say, if we really wanted to sort out this question, it'd be good to have an idea of what should be done and why.

[StrandedOnBeauboisHill]

I think all parties involved would have been better off by just trading the picks for instant help or future assets down the road (to stagger for a bigger deal).

Why can't these rookies be considered future assets down the road still?

I've been eyeing 2023 when we will have (as of today) 20 mil in expiring between Powell and Maxi, all 4 of these guys under contract (although I know there is some nuances to the two way guys), a 2022 first round pick under contract potentially and potentially still have the 2025 and 2027 firsts to package as well (if we remove protections owed to the Knicks in the 2023 pick).  You could go a step further and say we may also have Brunson on an extension during that season as well.  Point being is that feels like a whole lot of ammo to throw into a trade package and I would argue that puts us in a spot to take a run at the biggest name available that deadline.

Just because these guys aren't playing doesn't mean they aren't valuable assets to the team moving forward.

[fifteenth]

...all parties involved would have been better off by just trading the picks for instant help or future assets down the road (to stagger for a bigger deal).

James, you may turn out to be right, but I think you'll want this statement back if a couple of the four rookies turn into players with the Mavs. Year one, especially this year one, is way too early, imo, to be drawing these conclusions.

[KillerLeft]

I think all parties involved would have been better off by just trading the picks for instant help or future assets down the road (to stagger for a bigger deal).

Ok, so I can see where THIS point is coming from. Let me clarify my take:

Yes, if the goal was 100% win now, the picks should've been traded for players ready to contribute to winning. 

Yes, if the goal was 100% develop young players, all four of those dudes should be playing regularly, whether they're ready or not. (See DSJ, DFS and others for evidence that the team knows how to do this). 

But, in my view, the goal this season is BOTH, which has got to be incredibly difficult, especially when you're talking about FOUR rookies! I think the Mavs are trying to walk the line between maintaining the foothold they earned in the Western Conference playoff fraternity and moving forward with some young players in order to solve roster issues in the future, either by trading these young guys after they've shown something or by replacing the guys they do trade. While this approach might cause problems on both the win now goal and the develop talent goal, I think the fusion of those two things is the exact, right approach. While I can't swear that every detail of it has been executed perfectly because I'm not behind the scenes, in the organization, others can't swear the execution hasn't been perfect for the same reason. 

Above all, I'm just looking for an indication that the "develop rookies" crowd understands that IF the team would've chosen between those two goals rather than a mixture of both, there's a 99.9% chance they would've gone the "trade them for Gallinari" route. Do we REALLY want to bash them day and night for not doing that, just because we're deprived televised proof of what the coaching staff already knows? In two years, I feel like we're going to be glad these four kids were here for this season, and not Gallinari. I'm thankful for that, and I don't require Carlisle to sacrifice even one win just to prove that it was the right decision. One or more of them might make it in this league. One or more might be good, even. One or more might completely bust out. I don't think regular playing time in their first season is what makes any of them break in any particular direction.

[KillerLeft]

It's funny because I think some of these rookies would have ended up getting more minutes if we didn't go through the covid stretch.  If you assume our record would have been better if we had a legitimate roster during that month and felt a little more secure about our spot in the playoffs then we probably wouldn't be playing such a short rotation today and getting a better look at those guys.  

This might seem a little counterintuitive to some, but I think it's a great and valid point, actually.

[JamesConway]

The argument that development can't take place much outside of games has been made in the past. 

Am I wrong? I thought Green played a good bit at the beginning of the season, pre-team-covid. 

I'm not trying to change your opinion. Yours is as good as mine. Opinions are pretty much what I have. But, "x minutes is not enough minutes for our rookies" seems really subjective. In my imagination, the coaches have a methodology for how to develop a player, and specific thoughts about how game time fits in to that. What's your (or others here, please weigh in) methodology for deciding how many minutes a rookie "should" play. 

I'm not saying it's wrong to have an opinion based on feel. But the "rookies aren't playing enough" is thrown out enough that it would be helpful if we could hash out what we're using to come up with that claim.

*edit*

Let me push back on myself, before you have to. I don't think I have my "methodology" defined either. :-) So that's were someone could say that our opinions are kinda based on whether or not we trust the coaching staff.

I guess I'll just say, if we really wanted to sort out this question, it'd be good to have an idea of what should be done and why.

You aren’t wrong, our opinions are equally important/irrelevant and my stance certainly is subjective.

Re the methology: it’s nearly impossible for us outsiders to judge the behind the scenes-stuffas we don’t have access but we can look at the games and talk about the info around those. If you’d asked me going into the season about some ballpark numbers I would have told you: anything around 800 minutes over the course of the season is pretty darn good for a rookie on a fringe playoff team like DAL. Probably even more than that.

But our guys are so far away from that, I believe it has a negative effect on them and is holding them back. This isn’t a how are we getting there-issue, it’s a result-issue for me. I look for reasons to justify the lack of playing time but the moment I come across that Johnson-stat I gotta calk that a headscratcher. There were opportunities for minutes, they just chose to go with Johnson (or Iwundu who they dumped by now).

If Johnson wasn’t so terrible it would have been easier to make a case for him „earning“ his playing times but I never really saw it. Maybe RC saw some hidden things but then I wonder why they didn’t held onto him.

---

I can understand some angst about Green's minutes, especially when Iwundu was getting spot minutes after the covid timeline but I think in Bey's case there's a lack of trust in him reliably spacing the floor at the NBA level and I think those concerns have plenty of merit.  I also think that those Iwundu stretches recently could have just been us showcasing him for the deadline.

It's funny because I think some of these rookies would have ended up getting more minutes if we didn't go through the covid stretch.  If you assume our record would have been better if we had a legitimate roster during that month and felt a little more secure about our spot in the playoffs then we probably wouldn't be playing such a short rotation today and getting a better look at those guys.  

To me, it's always been a case by case basis with Rick and rookies so I feel like there's something he's seeing in practice that we aren't that makes him uncomfortable using those guys in game time situations and I choose to trust that decision making.

Angst is translated like fear, you‘re probably thinking of concern? that would be „Bedenken“ :-)

[StrandedOnBeauboisHill]

Angst is translated like fear, you‘re probably thinking of concern? that would be „Bedenken“ :-)

Ya angst was probably not a good word choice.  Was just thinking more frustration or concern with his minutes.

[StrandedOnBeauboisHill]

I think the Mavs are trying to walk the line between maintaining the foothold they earned in the Western Conference playoff fraternity and moving forward with some young players in order to solve roster issues in the future, either by trading these young guys after they've shown something or by replacing the guys they do trade. While this approach might cause problems on both the win now goal and the develop talent goal, I think the fusion of those two things is the exact, right approach. While I can't swear that every detail of it has been executed perfectly because I'm not behind the scenes, in the organization, others can't swear the execution hasn't been perfect for the same reason.

Feels like the "win now but win more later" sort of approach we're taking also speaks to the load management despite not being a true contender at the moment.  I understand the frustration as a fan wanting to see the stars out there but we have bigger plans for those two and then I also understand when we don't get to see the rookies in extended minutes in those games but we're still feeling pressure to push the rest of the vets out there with an even shorter rotation because there is that pressure to win now as well.  At least that's how I've interpreted the moves of late.

[JamesConway]

James, you may turn out to be right, but I think you'll want this statement back if a couple of the four rookies turn into players with the Mavs. Year one, especially this year one, is way too early, imo, to be drawing these conclusions.

I give you that, things can change and if that happens we can have our koombaya moments and I’m the first to admit I was a negative nancy. 

OTOH the Mavs aren’t a patient organization and often trade or dump their young players quickly (Simba for Noel, DSJ for KP, Roby for air, Iwundu for Redick). Right now I’d say that is where we’re headed. Hopefully I’m wrong.

[Kammrath]

Time to let Roddy B rest in peace.

[Kammrath]

What is your stance on the Mavs‘ handling of the rookies minutes? Especially regarding Bey? Do you think they are doing a poor/solid/good job?

I am a rookie/young player addict, so I always want them to get quality minutes. Here are my specific takes...

JG: I think he is one of the Mavs best defenders on the perimeter and maybe already the best. His offense needs work, but he is smart and moves without the ball. I do NOT understand why he hasn't gotten more burn. I truly think he should be taking all of Burke's minutes.

TT: I think he is going to need time. He isn't a PG quite yet and the Mavs want him to be that which is smart. I get why he hasn't gotten burn.

TBey: He is more raw than I was anticipating (though I knew he was raw) and I think the hang up with him is that he has the mindset of a "big" but really needs to learn how to be a wing in order to succeed in the NBA IMO. Him having to learn a new position AND transition to the NBA AND his rawness make me understand the lack of burn when it matters. 

So overall, I am not disappointed EXCEPT when RC plays the vets heavy minutes when they aren't making good decisions (this makes me really angry at times...bench the vet!) AND when games are out of reach and the rooks aren't coming in sooner.

[StepBackJay]

JG: I think he is one of the Mavs best defenders on the perimeter and maybe already the best. His offense needs work, but he is smart and moves without the ball. I do NOT understand why he hasn't gotten more burn. I truly think he should be taking all of Burke's minutes.

I could see JG getting the Burke 15 mpg next season. JG just needs to work on that jumper. If he can hit an outside shot I think he will have a role on this team.

[StepBackJay]

Something I saw on Mavs Twitter that's depressing is that Monta Ellis might be the best Mavs free signing ever (not including resigning guys like Dirk of course).

Every couple of years Fish and Donnie talk us into a superstar coming here and it's like Lucy and the football.

[BasketballJones41]

Something I saw on Mavs Twitter that's depressing is that Monta Ellis might be the best Mavs free signing ever (not including resigning guys like Dirk of course).

Every couple of years Fish and Donnie talk us into a superstar coming here and it's like Lucy and the football.

I was literally just on Twitter reading that.

[KillerLeft]

Wasn't Marion a sign and trade? I can't remember for sure, but I feel like he was. If so, I'm putting that one at the top of my list.

[BasketballJones41]

Wasn't Marion a sign and trade? I can't remember for sure, but I feel like he was. If so, I'm putting that one at the top of my list.

Yes he was. I think that technically counts. Which means you have to definitely put him in the conversation.