2020-2021 ROSTER TALK: Archived

[F Gump]

This is in line with my whole argument that you need to replace at least one of Kleber or DFS. They're both fine role players and starters on most teams ... BUT NOT AT THE SAME TIME.

DFS is a very smart player and a good defender but he's not a game-changing stopper. Good teams leave him totally unguarded. 

Kleber is a plus defender and fantastic, if hesitant, 3pt shooter. Teams won't leave him, which makes him much more valuable than DFS on offense. 

That said, if you run Kleber off the line, he's got nothing, which is why you can't play him with another zero on offense in the playoffs.

If I had the choice, I'd move DFS for Oladipo who can be a lock-down wing defender and give this team 15 efficient points per game. Then you have a decision with JRich & Kleber in the offseason.

Replacing Kleber with Gordon certainly helps but good teams still won't guard DFS in the playoffs.

I was with you all the way in this post, until you said "I'd move DFS for Oladipo who can be a lock-down wing defender and give this team 15 efficient points per game."

That's not who Oladipo is anymore. He's very inefficient shooting and since he's returned from his injury, it's a flat-line with no improvement (each year about 39% overall, 32% on 3s, TS% of 42% - all are abominable numbers) and yet he shoots a lot (usage is above 30%!).

While DFS could certainly stand to be upgraded, VO isn't the answer. Not anymore.

[DanSchwartzgan]

This is in line with my whole argument that you need to replace at least one of Kleber or DFS. They're both fine role players and starters on most teams ... BUT NOT AT THE SAME TIME.

DFS is a very smart player and a good defender but he's not a game-changing stopper. Good teams leave him totally unguarded. 

Kleber is a plus defender and fantastic, if hesitant, 3pt shooter. Teams won't leave him, which makes him much more valuable than DFS on offense. 

That said, if you run Kleber off the line, he's got nothing, which is why you can't play him with another zero on offense in the playoffs.

If I had the choice, I'd move DFS for Oladipo who can be a lock-down wing defender and give this team 15 efficient points per game. Then you have a decision with JRich & Kleber in the offseason.

Replacing Kleber with Gordon certainly helps but good teams still won't guard DFS in the playoffs.

I agree that Gordon would join KP and Maxi in the 4/5 rotation with Maxi off the bench swinging between the two positions.  When you need something different, you still have WCS at the five or DFS play some four.  But 96 minutes allows all of KP, Maxi and Gordon to get 32 a game if we are in an 8 man playoff rotation.

I don’t agree that DFS is still the logical starter at SF following a Gordon trade.  Gordon is a plus defender, but bad 3 point shooter.  I don’t think you want him and JRich and DFS all in together with KP and Luka.  Logically, you’d go back to THJ as a starter and move Maxi and DFS to the bench with Brunson.  It’s not like we platoon our bench.  The only platoon we tend to run is the starting five.  Post a Gordon trade, I’d propose that be KP/Gordon/THJ/JRich/Luka.

[KillerLeft]

I don’t agree that DFS is still the logical starter at SF following a Gordon trade.  Gordon is a plus defender, but bad 3 point shooter.  I don’t think you want him and JRich and DFS all in together with KP and Luka.  Logically, you’d go back to THJ as a starter and move Maxi and DFS to the bench with Brunson.  It’s not like we platoon our bench.  The only platoon we tend to run is the starting five.  Post a Gordon trade, I’d propose that be KP/Gordon/THJ/JRich/Luka.

I think you might have just stumbled onto one of the main reasons Gordon won’t be a Mav. 

Me, I’d roll with DFS, hoping his shooting slump ends, and short of that I’d replace Richardson in the starting lineup with THJ, not DFS. I just don’t think there’s anyone else on the roster who fits the bill as a 3.

[DanSchwartzgan]

I think you might have just stumbled onto one of the main reasons Gordon won’t be a Mav. 

Me, I’d roll with DFS, hoping his shooting slump ends, and short of that I’d replace Richardson in the starting lineup with THJ, not DFS. I just don’t think there’s anyone else on the roster who fits the bill as a 3.

Hardaway is playing 80% of his minutes as a 3 this year, but I don’t mind your suggestion.  It’s not like JRich is setting the world on fire.

[vfromlmf]

That's not who Oladipo is anymore. He's very inefficient shooting and since he's returned from his injury,

That's not entirely true. His spot up shooting has been just as efficient as ever. 

He's struggled with his pull-up jumper. But Oladipo won't be taking 17-19 shots per game in Dallas. He'll get like 12-14 shots and many more open spot-ups. 

I guarantee this: 

1. Oladipo will be a more efficient player in Dallas than Houston. 
2. Teams will guard him in the playoffs
3. He will improve overall spacing, ball movement and playmaking

But again, I value Oladipo more for his defense than his offense. He's still an All-NBA caliber defender and an overall better player than DFS in just about every way.

[Jommybone]

Hard to understand the desire on this board to move Kleeber to the bench and Brunson to another team. They’ve been our 3rd and 4th best players on the season so far. They are young and on great contracts. All indications are they’re working hard and continuing to improve. Why on earth would their roles be in jeopardy for a so-far disappointing Aaron Gordon?

[vfromlmf]

Post a Gordon trade, I’d propose that be KP/Gordon/THJ/JRich/Luka.

That makes some sense but I'd be worried about a complete lack of bench production. Brunson is untested in the playoffs and I'd be really hesitant to rely on his scoring against top teams.

[KillerLeft]

Hard to understand the desire on this board to move Kleeber to the bench and Brunson to another team.

That sentence indicates a misunderstanding of the desires of most engaged in conversation on these topics, so I’m not surprised. I don’t think anyone looks at those two and thinks “bench Kleber and get rid of Brunson and we’re good here.” 

The thinking is that the team needs to get better. Kleber’s versatility makes him even more ideal as a 3rd big than he is as a starter (though I don’t think he’s a bad starter at all) and while nobody in their right mind WANTS to trade Brunson, we probably all agree that to get something you have to give something. I wouldn’t move Brunson in just any deal, but buyers don’t get to set the prices. I believe the thinking there is that Brunson is one of the only pieces valued highly enough to bring anything good in return.

[F Gump]

As much as we are focused on some wonderful trade at the deadline, the Mavs are talking like they've already given up on that.

So what might the summer look like? Maybe there's a player then who is set to be available and can be a major improvement? They probably need big improvement. Trades now seem like lateral moves. With a lot of contracts expiring, it feels like they can spend, so maybe someone there would offer big improvement, not small.

Who might that be?

[dynamicalVoid]

As much as we are focused on some wonderful trade at the deadline, the Mavs are talking like they've already given up on that.

So what might the summer look like? Maybe there's a player then who is set to be available and can be a major improvement? They probably need big improvement. Trades now seem like lateral moves. With a lot of contracts expiring, it feels like they can spend, so maybe someone there would offer big improvement, not small.

Who might that be?

Sound like we like our guys even if they cant dribble or pass or defend.  Not saying Rick cant get these guys to be competitive in a playoff atmosphere.

It seems like Mavs want to run with Luka handling the ball...penetrating and then 1) looking for an easy lob to a rim-runner/front court guy.  If that is not available...2) then Luka continues with his penetration reading if he can get to the basket for an easy layup.  (Both 1 and 2 are high efficiency plays).  If 1 and 2 are not available then 3) Luka kicks out to the open guy behind the arc(maybe we swing it around the perimeter until a guy is open)

Basically basketballs equivalent of the RPO in Football.  

Seems really smart and efficient...and Im not going to sit here and try and argue against what math says is the smartest thing to do...all I ask is that we get guys that have fundamentals in the case we need them to put the ball on the floor and score.  Right now we seem to have guys that can defend but not dribble or create their own shot.  

Its almost like the Mavs know that deep in a playoff run Luka will be controlling the ball 45 minutes a game...no one else needs to be able to do anything(dribble, pass, create a shot for themselves) but dunk or shoot a three.  I guess I think we need players that are more well rounded which is why I was pro Gordon even though I know nothing about his fit for this team(contract wise or scheme wise) and I know nothing about his advanced stats.  Maybe the Mavs dont think they need to acquire and pay a player like that if its more bells and whistles than they need because Luka will be the one doing all the work...I dont know.

[F Gump]

Sound like we like our guys even if they cant dribble or pass or defend.  

If they can't dribble, pass, or defend, maybe the Mavs have no choice but to like their guys.

In a trade, you can't get unless you have something to excite the other team into a trade, and the Mavs don't have enticing draft picks to offer to supplement what talent they might send out. That means they would have to send out as much in overall talent as they are getting. And with as much going out as coming in, how much improvement would be possible?

[Jym]

As much as we are focused on some wonderful trade at the deadline, the Mavs are talking like they've already given up on that.

So what might the summer look like? Maybe there's a player then who is set to be available and can be a major improvement? They probably need big improvement. Trades now seem like lateral moves. With a lot of contracts expiring, it feels like they can spend, so maybe someone there would offer big improvement, not small.

Who might that be?

Seems so unproductive to just let Hardaway and Richardson walk for nothing, but that would fit into the general pattern of activity
We'd have 33 mil in space if we let them walk plus waived WCS.  Plus that would only give us the smaller MLE 
I don't even see anyone we could get who would be a clear upgrade using that space. No Giannis, I think we have to stay above the cap and trade now to come out ahead talentwise 
We'll see what they do. Maybe they'll just hand out more short term contracts to meh guys and plan powder it yet again

[cow]

Seems so unproductive to just let Hardaway and Richardson walk for nothing, but that would fit into the general pattern of activity
We'd have 33 mil in space if we let them walk plus waived WCS.  Plus that would only give us the smaller MLE 
I don't even see anyone we could get who would be a clear upgrade using that space. No Giannis, I think we have to stay above the cap and trade now to come out ahead talentwise 
We'll see what they do. Maybe they'll just hand out more short term contracts to meh guys and plan powder it yet again

The TDL will be telling.  We have so many expiring contracts, you'd think we'd be able to do something productive.  

If THJ and JRich are here past the TDL, I'm fine moving on from them as they are both the epitome of inconsistent.  If they are determined to keep one, I'd go with THJ and try to do a shorter term contract even if you have to overpay in that scenario.  That assumes they run out every other ground ball.

[F Gump]

Seems so unproductive to just let Hardaway and Richardson walk for nothing, but that would fit into the general pattern of activity

We'd have 33 mil in space if we let them walk plus waived WCS.  Plus that would only give us the smaller MLE 
I don't even see anyone we could get who would be a clear upgrade using that space. No Giannis, I think we have to stay above the cap and trade now to come out ahead talentwise 

We'll see what they do. Maybe they'll just hand out more short term contracts to meh guys and plan powder it yet again

I don't disagree with any of your observations. But as to your conclusion ("I think we have to stay above the cap and trade now to come out ahead talentwise "), I'm not sure if such an option even exists for the Mavs. Seriously.

If one is out there in the next week or so, a swap that will make them much better, obviously they have to grab it.

But, like, how do you "come out ahead talentwise" by making a trade in which the other team will always expect you to send them as much talent as you are getting. Or more. Trades - with cap, salary matching, and so on - are designed to be equal-for-equal events. Especially when you don't have any picks teams want. What are the things you can do where you DON'T have to give up equal talent, in order to get top talent back?

[Mapka]

I don't disagree with any of your observations. But as to your conclusion ("I think we have to stay above the cap and trade now to come out ahead talentwise "), I'm not sure if such an option even exists for the Mavs. Seriously.

If one is out there in the next week or so, a swap that will make them much better, obviously they have to grab it.

But, like, how do you "come out ahead talentwise" by making a trade in which the other team will always expect you to send them as much talent as you are getting. Or more. Trades - with cap, salary matching, and so on - are designed to be equal-for-equal events. Especially when you don't have any picks teams want. What are the things you can do where you DON'T have to give up equal talent, in order to get top talent back?

-Take back unwanted salary
-Take contracts, which are to long/short.
-Offer better fit.
-Offer potential (young players).
-Bribe them with up to 5.617 Mio.US $ 
-Give the picks you have.

[dynamicalVoid]

-Take back unwanted salary
-Take contracts, which are to long/short.
-Offer better fit.
-Offer potential (young players).
-Bribe them with up to 5.617 Mio.US $ 
-Give the picks you have.

Find a third team?  Is that an option.  I really dont know ha

[Mapka]

Find a third team?  Is that an option.  I really dont know ha

Yes sure, find someone else to offer value for something you have / are open to take.

Just look at the RoCo/Capela trade. The Hawks morphed injured uninteresting Capela into picks the Wolves wanted.

[Jym]

I don't disagree with any of your observations. But as to your conclusion ("I think we have to stay above the cap and trade now to come out ahead talentwise "), I'm not sure if such an option even exists for the Mavs. Seriously.

If one is out there in the next week or so, a swap that will make them much better, obviously they have to grab it.

But, like, how do you "come out ahead talentwise" by making a trade in which the other team will always expect you to send them as much talent as you are getting. Or more. Trades - with cap, salary matching, and so on - are designed to be equal-for-equal events. Especially when you don't have any picks teams want. What are the things you can do where you DON'T have to give up equal talent, in order to get top talent back?

Who are you trying to trade for?
Yeah we don't exactly have the assets to trade for an all-star without getting lucky. But a productive starter? Sure. 
Especially if we include Brunson. But keeping him would be more ideal

[Jommybone]

That sentence indicates a misunderstanding of the desires of most engaged in conversation on these topics, so I’m not surprised. I don’t think anyone looks at those two and thinks “bench Kleber and get rid of Brunson and we’re good here.” 

The thinking is that the team needs to get better. Kleber’s versatility makes him even more ideal as a 3rd big than he is as a starter (though I don’t think he’s a bad starter at all) and while nobody in their right mind WANTS to trade Brunson, we probably all agree that to get something you have to give something. I wouldn’t move Brunson in just any deal, but buyers don’t get to set the prices. I believe the thinking there is that Brunson is one of the only pieces valued highly enough to bring anything good in return.

Ok, I wasn’t being literal. But I can do literal:

I can’t believe how many on this board think the fellas who are having the third and fourth biggest, positive impact on our success—and who appear to be our third and fourth best players—and who appear to be improving more rapidly than anybody else on the team—are less valuable than a lotto pick bust who isn’t the third and probably isn’t even the fourth best player on a truly awful team in Orlando.

[KillerLeft]

I can’t believe how many on this board think the fellas who are having the third and fourth biggest, positive impact on our success—and who appear to be our third and fourth best players—and who appear to be improving more rapidly than anybody else on the team—are less valuable than a lotto pick bust who isn’t the third and probably isn’t even the fourth best player on a truly awful team in Orlando.

Specifically about Gordon, then?

I wouldn’t move Brunson in a deal for him, I don’t think. But, I wouldn’t hesitate to bench Kleber for him if he was here, somehow. For one thing, he’s probably a better player than Kleber, if we are being honest. Even if he’s not, the third big is still gonna play 25 to 35 minutes a night. It’s not like we would be putting Kleber out to pasture.