2020-2021 ROSTER TALK: Archived

[omahen]

I think his value goes down if they trade him in the offseason. That would mean that they aren't willing to pay him what he's being offered, which then becomes a point of weakness.

I guess it very much depends. If they are actively shopping him, than yes, it could. But they don't need to actively shop him. I am sure managers call them all the time and they can just smartly monitor the market and decide based on that. If there are decent offers coming their way they can accept them. I think literally the only bad scenario for them would be to let him go for nothing. 

But even if we forget them and they make the simplest thing. They just put him on auction telling everyone, he is for sale. I think the bidding war would be very strong, because he is a good player and because buyer pretty much gets the control over his future with the RFA status.

[ItsGoTime]

I just think, like you said, teams would be more willing to offer more at the TDL so THEY can control his fate. If I'm putting a best effort in getting him, I want that control and would pay for it. I think it all hinges on what ATL wants to do with him. Keep him or shop him.

[Mapka]

I think his value goes down if they trade him in the offseason. That would mean that they aren't willing to pay him what he's being offered, which then becomes a point of weakness.

As far as what we did with KP, there is a week before FA starts where he can have conversations with other teams that can present this option to him as a contract. He then says, YA, I'll take that contract instead of what ATL is offering even if it's a max, cause a no trade clause is an even better contract. ATL then has that conundrum if they were only signing him to trade him later. If not, then all is good anyway and they match the maxed out no trade clause contract.

Are we talking about player options? I'm pretty sure you can't put a no-trade-clause in an offer-sheet. 

It's very hard to get a trade like this, just look at the Kings/Bucks fuckup. I know it's the Kings and the Bucks, but you have to get three sides together. And to offer a trade and to have the capspace for an offersheet you normally need a tradeexception or the capspace and if it's capspace you won't give up real assets. 

Does anyone imagine the Hawks fucking up the Bogdanović trade?

[Omega_Supreme]

Take a look at the volume. Brunson takes 2-3 3PA per game. At his best Lowry was shooting 40% from 3 on 7-8 3PA.
Brunsons efficiency is great but he is only taking wide open 3s.His 3-point shooting his overrated. His midrange shooting is underrated.

I don't need to because I am basing it off of their early years. Brunson at the same state as Lowry is a better player. It is safe to say that Brunson has gotten better every year. If he continues to do so, he is on a trajectory to be better than Lowry and an all star. 

Brunson is a better shooter at this stage and overall he is a more efficient player than Lower at this age and blows him out of the water for first 3 years of service. Check out the FG% which stands out as well. Brunson is also attempting more shots and threes. 

Brunson is on a path to be better than Lowry and the stats prove it. 

Kyle Lowry



Jalen Brunson

[omahen]

Brunson is on a path to be better than Lowry and the stats prove it. 

The stats just prove Brunson in his first three years is having better stats than Lowry did. That is all. It is absolutely no proof that he is on a path to be better than Lowry. I bet we can find a bunch of players that had better stats in their first three years than Lowry but never managed to had a career Lowry did.

[dirkfansince1998]

The stats just prove Brunson in his first three years is having better stats than Lowry did. That is all. It is absolutely no proof that he is on a path to be better than Lowry. I bet we can find a bunch of players that had better stats in their first three years than Lowry but never managed to had a career Lowry did.

This. Taking "Omega_Supreme`s" approach DSJ should be better than prime Nash right now. Blake Griffin should be the best PF of all time. That´s not how it works. Some players never improve. Some get a little bit better each year. Some take a big leap and turn into allstars over night.
That´s why I don´t like the Luka/LeBron/Jordan/Magic talk. Having a great rookie and sophomore season is one thing but we cannot expect linear improvement.

[Omega_Supreme]

The stats just prove Brunson in his first three years is having better stats than Lowry did. That is all. It is absolutely no proof that he is on a path to be better than Lowry. I bet we can find a bunch of players that had better stats in their first three years than Lowry but never managed to had a career Lowry did.

The other side of that argument is that very few players at age 24 flirt with 50/40/90. The argument goes both ways. Brunson's stats put him in rare and elite company. Only 10 players in NBA history have achieved a season of 50/40/90 .

[KillerLeft]

It is me who is ending it.

Thanks, man.

[KillerLeft]

The other side of that argument is that very few players at age 24 flirt with 50/40/90. The argument goes both ways. Brunson's stats put him in rare and elite company. Only 10 players in NBA history have achieved a season of 50/40/90

That's valid, and I don't think anyone is trying to downplay it. I think we're all excited about his clear step forward this year, and about his potential. 

But, like others have said, his small track record so far doesn't guarantee him star status after a requisite waiting period. That's just not how it works. Plus, I'd argue that a LOT of younger players are putting up historically great stats these days, not only because they're great, but also because the current NBA allows them to. Encourages them to, even, through play style and how the game is officiated. It's a much different NBA now than it was when Lowry was a young player.

[KillerLeft]

Having said the above, there's NO way I'd include Brunson in a deal for Lowry. 0% chance.

[Omega_Supreme]

That's valid, and I don't think anyone is trying to downplay it. I think we're all excited about his clear step forward this year, and about his potential. 

But, like others have said, his small track record so far doesn't guarantee him star status after a requisite waiting period. That's just not how it works. Plus, I'd argue that a LOT of younger players are putting up historically great stats these days, not only because they're great, but also because the current NBA allows them to. Encourages them to, even, through play style and how the game is officiated. It's a much different NBA now than it was when Lowry was a young player.

Players in the NBA on average start to hit their stride in year 3. This has been said by many NBA players. You are right Brunson does have a small track record but that small track record is trending up. You are also right that I cannot predict what Brunson will become. 

However, my point was never to state it as a fact that Brunson will become an All Star. It was simply that he is on an upward trajectory and has not reached his ceiling. Steve Nash did not become an elite player until he was around age 26 or 27. You do not trade a young player that is on the upward trend of getting better for a guy that is 10 years older on the decline. That logic does not work in any sport. 

As for the NBA being different yes the game is different but Dennis Smith Jr declined and never showed to be on the positive side of development after year 3. Lonzo Ball is another good example of young players hitting their stride in year 3.

[Scott41theMavs]

Having said the above, there's NO way I'd include Brunson in a deal for Lowry. 0% chance.

Not even KP and Brunson for Siakim and Lowry?

[KillerLeft]

However, my point was never to state it as a fact that Brunson will become an All Star. It was simply that he is on an upward trajectory and has not reached his ceiling.

100% agree there. Lock step. 

You do not trade a young player that is on the upward trend of getting better for a guy that is 10 years older on the decline. That logic does not work in any sport. 

Well, if you start with that premise and mix in a bit of draft capital (going either direction, based on how good the players are) and a bit of cap relief, what you're describing is pretty much what EVERY trade looks like in ANY sport, imo. 

Now, I tend to agree with you about Brunson's value not being accurately gauged by most Mavs fans, and I happen to think they should still be in "acquire YOUNG talent" mode as a team, so you and I are likely to agree about most suggestions for trading Brunson. 

But, we can't MAKE the team build around him as a top 6 player, which is what he needs to be (somewhere) to reach his potential. Maybe their thinking is exactly like yours, and that's the plan (awesome). MAYBE, they think he can be that, but not on a timeline that's acceptable to them, and that both he and the team would be better off going their separate ways. And MAYBE they just don't think he's more than a backup PG, which, on a team whose franchise player is a PG, isn't a role that offers very much room for growth. 

IF (if) the Mavs' opinion is closer to either the 2nd or 3rd scenario, I just hope they get something they DO value for Brunson while they can. That's all. 

My personal (probably equally unpopular) opinion is that Luka/THJ/Brunson are a great guard rotation, and that Burke is fine as the 4th guard, filling in when he has to. Richardson is the guy I don't think fits, and the guy I'd be making calls about, along with Johnson. But, I can't say I'd be shocked if Brunson ends up moving, specifically because HE is one of the things I'd want from this team if I ran another team and was selling a valuable rotation player.

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Not even KP and Brunson for Siakim and Lowry?

Maybe...I don't see a trade THAT huge happening though.

[KillerLeft]

Siakim is interesting, though. 

@"StepBackJay" made a good point yesterday, saying something like "you've got to buy low." 

Collins' value is definitely higher today than it was a year ago. Significantly so, and rising by the day, probably. Markannen seems like he's having a good year, too, though not to the extent Collins is. 

Siakim and the Raptors are both DISMAL lately. The numbers for him haven't been terrible, but he has looked like a fish out of water since the bubble, basically. He's sort of the nucleus of a lot of disappointment for Toronto fans, so I'd say that if you're trying to "buy low" he might be your guy. If, of course, you think you can get him looking right again in Dallas.

[SleepingHero]

That´s why I don´t like the Luka/LeBron/Jordan/Magic talk. Having a great rookie and sophomore season is one thing but we cannot expect linear improvement.

You're right. That's exactly why we all must understand Luka is already better than Lebron/Magic/Jordan. Cmon guys look at the triple doubles! 

[ClutchDirk]

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2931...ar-forward

https://media.giphy.com/media/f8bi39QaEs.../giphy.gif

[loki]

I'd look for something around KP to Chicago, Markkanen to Atlanta, and Collins to Dallas.

[ClutchDirk]

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2931...mid-rumors

[StepBackJay]

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2931...ar-forward

https://media.giphy.com/media/f8bi39QaEs.../giphy.gif

If it were me I would be interested in Collins and Capella for KP. I think they would be a much better fit here and make Lukas life easier on offense. I would also like to expand the trade to get Gallo as well if they were interested in moving him. With Collins leaving tho they might hang onto Gallo.

The other option would be to give our best value players: Maxi, DFS and Brunson or some combination for Collins and Snell (used for salary matching). This would hurt our bench in the short term but Mavs would still be better off.

I like KP as a player but I am losing confidence that he's ever going to be that efficient of an offensive player. I like the upside of Collins better and think that Capella would also be a great fit. Hawks might not like losing both of Traes lob threats but they are not focused ab this year anyway.

[StepBackJay]

I'd look for something around KP to Chicago, Markkanen to Atlanta, and Collins to Dallas.

I'd want Capella too and also we would need more salary anyway for salary matching.