2020-2021 ROSTER TALK: Archived

[cow]

Well, in my post I mentioned that the price would have to come down some from the (rumored) Portland offer. 

Flames coming for this, and I'm not saying I'd START with this offer, but I would way include Richardson if I had to. I am not in any way convinced that he's a difference maker here yet. He might be, but so far I see the same struggles integrating him that they had with Wright.

I'm not really seeing the Wright comparisons and while I'm not opposed to trading him, I just don't think the Mavs are there without it being a massive upgrade.  We know they loved Curry so you'd have to imagine that Josh is in the long term plans of the MBT.  Is Gordon a massive upgrade?  I'm not sure. 

Re: Drummond.  What's he going to cost?  I'm not sure he'd take the haircut of the contract that I'd offer him.

[omahen]

It is obvious Mavs need a shooter of THJ caliber. While he was good (Charlotte, Milwaukee) the offense was ok. When he was out (Chicago, Toronto), the offense just fell apart. None of the other guys is able to replace his production. There is hope Richardson could help in THJ off nights. 

It is also obvious Mavs need another facilitator, but they still can't afford to lose shooting. Out of the frequently mentioned names of Oladipo, DeRozan and LaVine the latter is the only one that can also replace THJ shooting. If we would be targetting Oladipo or DeRozan, THJ would have to stay. 

A poor man solution is Fournier to replace Burke as scoring punch from the bench.

[RDB]

It is obvious Mavs need a shooter of THJ caliber. While he was good (Charlotte, Milwaukee) the offense was ok. When he was out (Chicago, Toronto), the offense just fell apart. None of the other guys is able to replace his production. There is hope Richardson could help in THJ off nights. 

It is also obvious Mavs need another facilitator, but they still can't afford to lose shooting. Out of the frequently mentioned names of Oladipo, DeRozan and LaVine the latter is the only one that can also replace THJ shooting. If we would be targetting Oladipo or DeRozan, THJ would have to stay. 

A poor man solution is Fournier to replace Burke as scoring punch from the bench.

Oladipo had a nice stat line tonight in his first game...32/9/5/2

[SkenfromLMF]

Seeing the problems that Cleveland has in the locker room, could Dallas get involved and take advantage (I mean help out) Cleveland.

From Dallas this works as 2 separate trades to keep the balances under $19.6 million.

Dallas trades: Dwight Powell, Iwundu, and Tyrell Terry (CLE) + #1 pick (~ '25) to CLE and #2 pick to ORL (for Gordon + K.P.Jr)
Orlando trades: Mo Bamba (CLE) and Aaron Gordon (Dal) (for Drummond; 2 #1 picks; and a 2nd rd pick + Jalen Brunson)
Cleveland trades: Andre Drummond and 2 #1 picks to Orlando (for Powell, Bamba, Iwundu, and Terry + a Dallas 1st)

In a separate trade: Dallas trades Jalen Brunson to ORL; ORL diverts Terry/minimum player to CLE; CLE ditches Kevin Porter JR. to DAL
To make the first trade work for Orlando: Terry has to go to ORL in the initial trade of Drummond and then goes to Cleveland in the Brunson trade to Orlando OR Orlando also has to trade a minimum salaried player to take on Brunson

From Dallas' perspective the Gordon trade works by less than 20k.
Orlando gets a PG and 2 picks for Gordon and Drummond
Cleveland gets considerable salary savings this season, solid locker presence in Powell, and a young piece in Terry for the NET cost of ONE 1st rd pick and Powell's salary rolling forward.

[cow]

Can't trade '25 without removing protections on '23 that is owed to New York.

[SleepingHero]

From Dallas this works as 2 separate trades to keep the balances under $19.6 million.

Dallas trades: Dwight Powell, Iwundu, and Tyrell Terry (CLE) + #1 pick (~ '25) to CLE and #2 pick to ORL (for Gordon + K.P.Jr)
Orlando trades: Mo Bamba (CLE) and Aaron Gordon (Dal)  (for Drummond; 2 #1 picks; and a 2nd rd pick + Jalen Brunson)
Cleveland trades: Andre Drummond and 2 #1 picks to Orlando (for Powell, Bamba, Iwundu, and Terry + a Dallas 1st)

Can't see ORL investing in Drummond with Vucevic still on the roster. I do think that the Mavs wouldn't mind consolidating/replacing Powell/WCS into Vucevic. He's not the above the rim player like those 2, but he's still darn good.

Maybe a revised trade where:

Cavs get: Powell/WCS/Terry

Magic: Drummond/THJ

Mavs: Vucevic/Fournier 

Mavs also give up 1 first pick and whatever 2nds they have left to sweeten the pot. I doubt the Magic would be for such a trade. And CLE would be eating Powell's salary for not much incentive. Also because of trade rules WCS wouldn't be able to be traded until March 1st, which is a long ways away.

[HanspardsShowerVoice]

I can't understand how anyone can look at Burke scoring 5 points in 29 minutes against the Bulls and THJ scoring 0 points in 27 minutes agains tthe Raptors and think "The Mavs really need to focus on getting a paint clogging big !!". These are supposed to be the guys who provide offense help for Luka, and this is what they're bringing to the table. THJ is streaky but he's an actual NBA rotation player who is been Peter Principled into a bigger role than he should have, so let's put him aside for a second and focus on Burke. Burke is the scoring guard version of Boban ... he shouldn't even see mroe than 5 minutes most nights. That's not me being a Burke hater, that's what the market of NBA General Managers have told us. That's why he was unemployed before the bubble. That's why the Mavs got him for $3 million per season after he had a chance to put his talents on the market for the highest bidder. Trust what every other NBA Front Office in the league thinks of him. He's been in the league 7 seasons, they have plenty of tape. And this is our "instant offense" guy off the bench? He's not an NBA rotation player for a contender. I don't understand why people are just cool with sub-rotation $3 million per year NBA players at critical roles.


And we wonder why Luka feels pressure to carry the entire offense on his shoulders. You can see that he's palpably upset that he's the only one on this team who can get a bucket in the final 4 minutes. If we don't get Luka someone who can help share the burden on offense as an onball playmaker, he's going to be out of here. This isn't a role you just neglect in the modern NBA. The Nets are surrounding Durant with Kyrie and Harden to help share the load. The Lakers let guys walk so they could put a priority on getting Schroder to take some offensive workload off of LeBron. And we're just cool with and fringe end of roster/international league player like Trey Burke in that role? For God's sakes, get Luka someone who can let him get an easy bucket off ball for once.

[StepBackJay]

@"HanspardsShowerVoice" the thing I would say is everyone just needs to be a little bit more patient and wait until we at least see our full compliment of players. All the Covid protocol stuff has made the start of this season nuts.

I expect Rich, DFS and Maxi to be starting when they get back which will make the offense look infinitely better. Luka is very frustrated bc he is dishing the ball out to Josh Green and Iwundu. He is passing to a rolling WCS who fumbles the ball or misses dunks.

Let's see what it looks like with all the spacing that KP, DFS, Rich, Maxi create and guys who can finish at the rim and hit 3 pointers. When the Mavs are at full strength Iwundu, Green are getting little to no minutes (altho I think we all like Green's hustle and promise as a player). WCS will get his minutes cut. Powell does some nice things that we take for granted and he hasn't been available. Johnson is a guy in limited minutes who is good but his weaknesses get exposed with more minutes. Lots of things are going to look better soon.

I would definitely like another playmaker and to me the guy to upgrade would be THJ if given the chance. All that being said this roster at full strength is pretty salty. KP is still knocking the rust off. I don't think we need to panic just yet.

[HanspardsShowerVoice]

I agree that Iwundu, Green and to a lesser extent WCS probably weren't expected to be key contributors and have been forced into a bigger role. And they only settled for WCS because they couldn't land Gasol.

For THJ and Burke they're currently playing the roles according to how the roster was purposely constructed in the offseason. There's no reinforcements coming. It's time to reevaluate those decisions.

[SkenfromLMF]

Can't trade '25 without removing protections on '23 that is owed to New York.

Sure you can, you just put a provision on it like we did the picks to NY being contingent on the pick to Atlanta -
The '25 pick is contingent on the '23 pick being conveyed, and if not they move back a year.

Can't see ORL investing in Drummond with Vucevic still on the roster. I do think that the Mavs wouldn't mind consolidating/replacing Powell/WCS into Vucevic. He's not the above the rim player like those 2, but he's still darn good.

Maybe a revised trade where:

Cavs get: Powell/WCS/Terry

Magic: Drummond/THJ

Mavs: Vucevic/Fournier 

Mavs also give up 1 first pick and whatever 2nds they have left to sweeten the pot. I doubt the Magic would be for such a trade. And CLE would be eating Powell's salary for not much incentive. Also because of trade rules WCS wouldn't be able to be traded until March 1st, which is a long ways away.

Don't think of it as an investment in Drummond... Think of it as getting the 2 picks for Gordon and Brunson for Bamba with a salary match which creates cap space next summer.
I think the odds of Orlando taking on Drummond are MUCH GREATER than the odds of them trading Vucevic. I doubt seriously they want to move on from Fournier, unless they feel he is walking to a giant offer in the summer - in which case the Drummond contract provides them more room under the TAX to be competitive in the market for him this summer. I propose this based on the single largest motivation for Orlando being getting Brunson (position of need), a 2nd and 2 1st rd picks for Gordon in this process.

[StepBackJay]

I don't think Mavs want a center like Vuc that would move KP back to PF.

[dirkfansince1998]

Watched some Knicks highlights and and was suprised by Randle`s defense. Obviously not the best option to make a case but his improved athleticism is really helping him on the perimeter. Still lacks the wingspan to be a good help defender in the paint but he can at least stay in front of most SFs/PFs. He also has the strength to defend the post.

Numbers support the eyetest.

Defensive on/off: -4.5 (don´t think he is as good as the lineup data suggests because he plays most of his minutes next to Robinson who is the defensive anchor of the team)

DBPM: +0.9 (similar to Luka: good DREB numbers lead to good defensive boxscore metrics)

DRaptor: + 1.3

DFG%: -5.6

Still don´t think that he is more than average on defense but next to a good rim protector/help defender he can have a positive impact. I think KP/Randle or Maxi/Randle lineups would be above average on defense as long as the Mavs perimeter defense isn´t terrible.

Among the guys that match Johnsons salary he is slowly turning into my favorit option. Problem is that with each good game his value increases. Not to mention that the Knicks might want to avoid another trade with the Mavs.

Let´s say the Mavs offer:

Johnson + lift restricitions on the 2023 1st + 2025 1st --> Randle

In the summer this would have been an overpay. Right now it probably isn´t enough.

[cow]

Sure you can, you just put a provision on it like we did the picks to NY being contingent on the pick to Atlanta -
The '25 pick is contingent on the '23 pick being conveyed, and if not they move back a year.

Which could move that pick all the way back to '27 based on the contingencies on the owed NY pick.  I hate the idea of giving up our last tradeable FRP when we are so close to having flexibility again. Eventually MBT needs to figure out how to win in free agency to complete this roster.

[dirkfansince1998]

Which could move that pick all the way back to '27 based on the contingencies on the owed NY pick.  I hate the idea of giving up our last tradeable FRP when we are so close to having flexibility again.  Eventually MBT needs to figure out how to win in free agency to complete this roster.

I think the free agency window has closed. 2021 options aren´t looking good and with Lukas max deal they won´t have any capspace afterwards.

[KillerLeft]

I think the free agency window has closed. 2021 options aren´t looking good and with Lukas max deal they won´t have any capspace afterwards.

We can still hold out hope that a RFA will get away...but yeah, it's not a picture of possibility.

[omahen]

In the summer this would have been an overpay. Right now it probably isn´t enough.

You made a great example of Mavs options. As they don't have near enough assets to go after best "surefire" options like Beal or other disgruntled star that might appear on the market, they will have to take educated risks with guys that are "damaged goods" to a certain extent. This includes overpaid guys (Tobias), injury proned guys (like KP), dominantly one way guys (LaVine), guys who performed better in the past but are underperforming at the moment (Oladipo in the bubble) or guys that we believe have potential but didn't show it yet (Bagley  ). The price for such a guy fluctuates based on where he is. Randle is a perfect example - he would be likely very cheap in the summer. He is not cheap now after a good start of the season. Same goes for Oladipo, LaVine and many others. Might be Mavs don't have assets for them when they are playing well. So we should start looking for potential stars that are underperforming based on their contracts or expectations. 

I think we desperately need an upgrade but I totally agree it makes no sense to pay remaining assets for someone who is perhaps just on a hot streak. We should more likely be looking at players that are underperforming at the moment. As strange as it may sound

[Scott41theMavs]

Hanspard's take on Burke is hyperbolic. He had a 15+ PER in the bubble, in his earlier stint with the Mavs, and as the starting point guard in NY before the trade. He's good at what he does. He just happens to be slumping right now. He's just fine as a scorer off the bench.

[SleepingHero]

Johnson + lift restricitions on the 2023 1st + 2025 1st --> Randle

So essentially an expiring a first, and no safety net for sucking in 2023 for Randle? Thats a bit rich for my blood. Especially because as bad as Johnson has been on offense, he's been a pretty dang good defender so far.

[KillerLeft]

So essentially an expiring a first, and no safety net for sucking in 2023 for Randle? Thats a bit rich for my blood. Especially because as bad as Johnson has been on offense, he's been a pretty dang good defender so far.

I honestly don't think people are watching Randle play. It's true he's having a great season, but that's because NY is playing to his strengths, finally. He is at his best when he has the ball in his hands going downhill. 

For perspective, imagine someone who plays like Johnson (better) who expects and needs the ball to succeed. Sure, Johnson's versatility is intriguing here, as it's something we haven't seen on the Mavs in quite some time. Maybe ever. But, is anyone looking at his offensive game and thinking "yeah, I see EXACTLY how that fits in with this group and think the team needs to double down on that"?

Randle isn't a spacer or a screen and roll guy. He's like Johnson. The Mavs currently have a version of that player they're having trouble integrating, but at least this version is expiring, grateful for the opportunity and happy to come off of the bench. He'll probably be ok with a more limited role as the rotation tightens up, too.

[SleepingHero]

Randle isn't a spacer or a screen and roll guy. He's like Johnson. The Mavs currently have a version of that player they're having trouble integrating, but at least this version is expiring, grateful for the opportunity and happy to come off of the bench. He'll probably be ok with a more limited role as the rotation tightens up, too

The thing is though, Randle will not be played to his strengths here. He will not be the focal point of the team while he's on the court. That will be Luka. And when Luka sits that will be KP.

So the question is, how effective does Randle become in a role like Johnson's? Is he still worth that kind of package with worse defense? I lean towards no. We've seen that play out and he's anywhere from a 10-15ppg game on mediocre metrics across the board. Is that what this team needs? 

I actually like Randle here, but not at that price. Mostly because I feel like he'd be the kind of bench scorer we'd need here, despite him being so one dimensional. And if the Mavs want a bench scorer to come in and lead the 2nd unit, there are certainly other players that are either better themselves or can be had for a lower cost package. Derrick Rose comes to mind as one. And he fits the need as a secondary playmaker as well.