DRAFT: #18 [Green] & #31 [Terry] & trade for #36 [Tyler Bey]

[Kammrath]

if he does turn out to be Malcolm Brogdon though...

Brogdon has a 6'10.5" wingspan.... 6.5 inches longer! Take 6.5" away from Brogdon and he is NOT the same player on either end of the court. No chance.

[Kammrath]

So I've been watching a lot more film on prospects and I keep coming back to "Tiger Bay" (as Scott calls him), Tyler Bey.

He is immediately ready to impact defensively (IQ, length, and hustle), he is an awesome rebounder, I think he has great potential as a roll man and lob threat, and I love that he is working on his three point shot. 

And I love the Shawn Marion comp from these guys:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-sapjeSp_ec


I'm ALL IN on "Tiger Bay"!

[IamDougieFresh]

Desmond Bane will be a beast trust me boys. Will slang it guaranteed.

[Scott41theMavs]

Desmond Bane will be a beast trust me boys. Will slang it guaranteed.

Unfortunately, there are two sides of the floor.

---

So I've been watching a lot more film on prospects and I keep coming back to "Tiger Bay" (as Scott calls him), Tyler Bey.

He is immediately ready to impact defensively (IQ, length, and hustle), he is an awesome rebounder, I think he has great potential as a roll man and lob threat, and I love that he is working on his three point shot.

And I love the Shawn Marion comp from these guys:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-sapjeSp_ec


I'm ALL IN on "Tiger Bay"!

Not only did they compare him to 'Trix, they doubled and tripled down on it. Everything they talked about points to intelligence, athletic ability, and character. He could become your Butler-like defensive leader.

I've talked about us getting a early '20s pick for him, but if your intell has a team in the #19-22 range looking at him, I'd take him #18.

Keep the damn pick, Mark and Donnie.

BTW, 7'1" is bigger than 6'4".

[burekemde]

Were there many great players with a small wingspan for their size? 

IMO it is far more important to know when and where to be, when to start jumping, rather than using your wingspan to recover from bad positioning and bad timing. But given two players are in exactly same position at same time and jump at the same time, it is obviously the difference, and it is clearly an advantage. I wouldn't list that as a primary attribute however. If you do know how to position well, and time your defense well, then the wingspan is advantage. 

From the video T. Bey does make some great defensive reads with great timing, that was far more important than his wingspan. Bane does so as well. What worries me about T. Bey is that players that cant contribute both ways, but are defensive specialists, will not be able to contribute and start, unless they really transform their offensive game. MKG being a great example to that. Bane just looks like a two way player in every aspect of the game, he would start day one IMO. I think the same applies to Sadiq Bey and Haliburton. Its obvious tyler Bey has more athleticism, and the potential is there. Many times we get distracted by that and forget about skills. However, there are obviously instances where the skill comes with time in NBA and these players can and do turn into stars.

[Kammrath]

I'd take him #18.

I am probably irrationally high on him right now, but that's my feeling at the moment too. Let's see if it sticks in the coming weeks.

So Scott, we all want to know: Was "Tiger Bay" autocorrect or was it on purpose??

---

Were there many great players with a small wingspan for their size? 

Looking at data back to 00-01 (20 years of data) here is what I found:

1) VERY few players in the NBA have a wingspan that small. And not many who do are successful at all. 

2) The ones that do tend to be ELITE in something....

• Monta Ellis (6'2.75" wingspan and always a defensively liability, elite first step and quickness and finishing at the rim made his career)
  
• JJ Reddick (6'3.25" wingspan and always a defensive liability, elite shooting made his career)
  
• Seth Curry (6'4" wingspan and often a defensive liability, elite shooting)
  
• Kemba Walker (6'3.5" wingspan and always a defensive liability, elite shooting, speed, and pick and roll offense)
  
• Kyrie Irving (6'4" wingspan and always a defensive liability, elite shooting, speed, and dribble creation offense)
  
• Trae Young (6'3" wingspan and always a defensive liability, elite shooting, speed, and dribble creation offense)
  
• Jalen Brunson (6'4" wingspan and a strong defender, good shooting and crafty offensive creation)
  
• Tyler Herro (6'3.25" wingspan and always a defensive liability, elite shooting)
  

So you see TWO classes that make it with 6'4" or under wingpsan:

1) Elite speed and shot creation.

OR

2) Elite shooting (like NBA ALL TIME level)

And then defense is basically always bad. Brunson is the only exception really. And it will be interesting to see if he can maintain it in his career or where his career goes.

Does Bane have the speed and shot creation of guys like Monta, Kyrie, and Kemba? I don't think so.

Does Bane have the elite shooting of Curry and Reddick? I don't think so. 

TONS of guys look great in college but never make it in the NBA. To me that is likely Bane. But of course I could always be wrong.

[omahen]

Jalen Brunson (6'4" wingspan and a strong defender

How did you come up to this claim? I am not saying he is particularly bad, but I don't think he is a strong defender either.

[Kammrath]

How did you come up to this claim?

Well his sample size is small and his rookie year I would not have said so. But....

1) My eyes told me he was this past season.

2) He led the team in +5.1 defensive on/off.

3) He had a non-negative +0.03 DRPM. 

That tells me he is a strong defender all things considered. Like I said, "we'll see moving forward."


The best defending small wingspan player of all time might be Chris Paul (6'4.25"). EVEN CHRIS PAUL HAS A BIGGER WINGSPAN THAN BANE!

---

Just a random rant/reminder to folks:

You don't play basketball with the top of your head, you play basketball with your hands and arms!

Wingspan is way more important than height IMO as a predictor of anything in the NBA.

[Dundalis]

I'd also say the current roster construction combined with the development of Luka today would result in Barnes fitting in much better with the current team. THJ is every bit the black hole Barnes is, and was hot garbage the second half of last season post trade jacking up bricks at a level of inefficiency we've never seen from Barnes, but puts up a career shooting year this season and people start singing his praises. His shooting reverts to somewhere close to the norm, which is probably more likely than not, he's ultimately just a less talented version of Barnes.

I disagree about the similarity between THJ and Barnes. They're not similar and Barnes doesn't provide a better version of what THJ does. And Tim is not the black hole that Barnes is. We're just seeing a different game. 

Also, Barnes didn't want to be converted to a 3-D player. He wants to be an all around player. He doesn't want to be a catch and shoot player, and THJ is fine with it. Barnes wants to be thrown the ball so he can go to work. That player isn't compatible with our offense. 

If HB had been willing to be a 3-D player, and be paid like one, he might have been a fit.

There's some merit to that analysis, but I don't have any evidence that Barnes would be completely unwilling to change his play style. Basically the point is that THJ's value is incredibly heavily weighted around his 3pt efficiency. He's basically useless without it IMO and would barely merit a place on the bench. THJ is a black hole too, that's not really debatable I don't think. But it's fair that Barnes TOP is higher as he preferred to spend time working in isolation, where THJ will just catch and shoot or one dribble shoot. But again, I'm not debating Barnes wasn't a good fit. The praise of THJ is too based in recency bias for me though. The likelyhood he reverts much closer to his mean scoring efficiency after an outlier season is pretty high. Don't understand the comments where fans want to resign him already. I don't like his value based so heavily on something he's proven completely inefficient at throughout his career.

[Kammrath]

One other note:

Trey Burke is the "biggest" of the smalls on the Mavs with a 6'5.5" wingspan. It is why despite his height he can play solid D and finish in the lane.

[burekemde]

I agree, if you can play basketball, wingspan disadvantage is no problem, one can seem overcome this. This is a fine list of some of the todays exxamples, and there are obviously many more examples in history. 

All these guys can play, using different skillsets. Now the question is whether Bane can play or not. It really comes down to this. 

He is what, 442 from 3pt?  He might be an elite sharpshooter in NBA in a few years, sooner rather than later. His pct would be even better if he kept on catch and shoot open 3s, which would be his role next to Luka. Many of his shots are contested IMO, which they would not be on Mavs, or other NBA teams. 

He has defensive awareness, and bbIQ. I really believe he can play. He might be better than Brunson already. Defensively he is far ahead and with much more potential on Defense. He is strong and with size, that Brunson just cant match at all. 

It is true his is not super athletic, but its also hard to point that he is unathletic either. He can become an elite NBA sharpshooter, playing great team switch defense. If this occurs, I agree with the poster that mentions he would be 10 years starter next to Luka. 

There are few players, two way players, that have the bbIQ, overall level of play and understanding that can start day one on NBA teams. I think Bane is that player. I do not believe T. Bey has the skills to start, athleticism yes, and he might develop into a star player later with development yes, but its a question if he even becomes a starter. 

Now question is if we can wait for contribution. I think Mavs need players to contend right away. But im sure there are different and valid opinions of other directions.

---

What will limit Bane is his play under the rim, and I think its more to do with instincts rather than wingspan. He has the size and strength to bully defenders, but does not do it. But he can be elite shooter both from mid range and 3, and he can be really physical. I believe this would be a great fit for the Mavs as he wont drive and be under the rim all the time like Luka. 

Bane takes way too many contested 3s and off the dribble, and with range. To me this points that he is far better shooter than recognized. 

His lack of efficiency under the paint will limit his star potential. This is probably combination of instincts in this position and low wingspan. 

But I think he would propel the Mavs to another level as he is a two way player that will excel as a shooter next to Luka and he plays great D. Brunson just cant bring this what Bane would. 

Luka 
Bane
Sadiq Bey


These would be great picks, and they would bring the mid game range we in fact completely lack. 3pt shooting would clearly elevate as well. Defense by a mile would be better long term.

I really believe we need to bring in two way players. We saw mKG playing great D, but was always substituted to the bench as the offense could not run. On other hand, we have some great offensive players in THJ and Curry, and they could not get it done on defense. Maxi is excellent on D, but could not get it going on offense in playoffs. 

To me, S. Bey, Haliburton, and Bane are players to target in this draft, along with Kaleb Wesson. All two way players that would help us contend.

[KillerLeft]

I am so far away from being confident about any of these guys, given how little I've seen them.  Based on the breakdowns I've seen and what I've read, I like Haliburton and Vassell a lot, but they're definitely not in a range where the Mavs have any chance at them, right? 

I like Saddiq Bey a lot, too. I kind of like Nesmith and Patrick Williams, tbh, I feel like those guys could all fall to around #18, and I can see them actually seeing the court next year if the Mavs drafted them. Bey, in particular, seems like he's going to be kind of a Brunson-like rookie in that he'll be able to find ways to contribute right away. 

Of those I've seen projected lower than #18, I like Bane and Jalen Smith. 

I guess the conversation around Tyler Bey is about #31, but I have to say, I don't see it. He definitely doesn't seem anywhere near as athletic as young Shawn Marion to me, and it doesn't appear that he'll be starting his career with much skill. I do like the body type.

[khaled1987]

One other note:

Trey Burke is the "biggest" of the smalls on the Mavs with a 6'5.5" wingspan. It is why despite his height he can play solid D and finish in the lane.

Do we know Bane wingspan for sure? Or it is just estimated/old measurement?

[Scott41theMavs]

One other note:

Trey Burke is the "biggest" of the smalls on the Mavs with a 6'5.5" wingspan. It is why despite his height he can play solid D and finish in the lane.

Do we know Bane wingspan for sure? Or it is just estimated/old measurement?

If his arms have grown, so will his draft stock.

[KillerLeft]

I think it's smart to have an idea of what body types help people find success in the league, but I wouldn't write people off because of it. 

You legit couldn't trade the #1 pick in this draft for Tyler Herro right now, and his wingspan sucks.

[Scott41theMavs]

I am so far away from being confident about any of these guys, given how little I've seen them. Based on the breakdowns I've seen and what I've read, I like Haliburton and Vassell a lot, but they're definitely not in a range where the Mavs have any chance at them, right?

I like Saddiq Bey a lot, too. I kind of like Nesmith and Patrick Williams, tbh, I feel like those guys could all fall to around #18, and I can see them actually seeing the court next year if the Mavs drafted them. Bey, in particular, seems like he's going to be kind of a Brunson-like rookie in that he'll be able to find ways to contribute right away.

Of those I've seen projected lower than #18, I like Bane and Jalen Smith.

I guess the conversation around Tyler Bey is about #31, but I have to say, I don't see it. He definitely doesn't seem anywhere near as athletic as young Shawn Marion to me, and it doesn't appear that he'll be starting his career with much skill. I do like the body type.

Liked your post a great deal until the Tyler Bey stuff. First Grant and now this? SMDH.

Kamm, Tiger Bay is the title of an album by '90s electronica/trip hop/pop band Saint Etienne, which happened to be on my mind when I watched the videos. Couldn't escape the similarity.

[JamesConway]

https://twitter.com/NBADraftWass/status/...65762?s=20

There must be some type of combine-substitute relatively soon.

[KillerLeft]

@"Scott41theMavs" I am NOT confident in my opinions about ANY of the players I mentioned. I am so far from a college basketball guy that I shouldn't even be posting about it, but I just wanted to be part of the party. 

That said, in a video where two guys are obviously going out of the their way to hype Tyler Bey, almost like they're getting paid to do it, you'd think they could find some footage that's actually impressive. I didn't see "Matrix" in that video, personally, and my experience is that these dudes' highlight videos make them all look like future hall of famers. I do like his body type a lot! And, I could way be wrong. But, if he can't shoot, how does he get on the floor? He's not going to be Tayshaun Prince on the defensive end as a rookie, probs, and even if he is, how does he fit on offense? 

I just feel like if athletic ability is all you bring to the table as a young player, you'd better be LEGENDARILY athletic. If he's that dude, and I just didn't see it in the one video I've seen that Kamm posted, snag him!

Donnell Harvey, Justin Anderson, whoever that "J-Flight" guard kid was...they were all athletic, too, and with great size for their positions. Jalen Brunson has been an infinitely more successful pick than any of them. Just saying.

[Kammrath]

I do like his body type a lot!

What about his elite rebounding and defense (able to guard 1-5 basically)? How did you not see that in the video?

---

There must be some type of combine-substitute relatively soon.

Yes, they will be doing sites around the country and then virtual stuff as well to do the combine. 

NBA Announces format for Draft Combine! The NBA has announced that they are taking a new approach to the Draft Combine. They will be having it virtually and in team markets, as these phases begin on September 28th.

“NBA Draft Combine is an essential part of the pre-draft evaluation process,” said Byron Spruell, President, NBA League Operations.  “While the circumstances surrounding this Combine are unique, we’re excited to creatively deliver a valuable experience for our teams, who have remained flexible through the process, and for prospective draftees who are just beginning their NBA journeys.” 

Now, even though it is virtual, players will still have the chance to have league and team interviews. All these interviews will be conducted through video conference, which will run through Sept. 28th – Oct. 16th.

Players will still be doing shooting drills, agility and strength drills, anthropometric measurements, and a “Pro Day” video. Also, the NBA will go through an app called “HomeCourt.” HomeCourt is an app that allows recording the shooting of the player they are viewing. This video is used to showcase the player’s skills, and this can be up to 45 minutes long.

The NBA Draft advertising is by State Farm and is being held on November 18th, which is a Wednesday. Now, things have been changing as dates have been changing. But as we know now, everything is set for the 18th. Also, everyone can watch the NBA Draft by watching it on ESPN.

[KillerLeft]

I do like his body type a lot!

What about his elite rebounding and defense (able to guard 1-5 basically)? How did you not see that in the video?

I saw him making defensive plays in slow, slow games with not a lot of contact, mostly. If he's REALLY as athletic as Marion in THAT body, then you might have something, provided he's smart enough. 

Idk, though. "Big and long for a wing" seems like it could easily become "average size and length for a big" with guys like that. If it turns out that with his agility and instincts he's really just a small center, are you excited about him? He's playing as a big for much of that video, after all. I'm just asking, not trying to argue. I'm sure you've seen him more than I.

EDIT: Just rewatched the whole video to make sure I'm not lying. He's playing as a "big" in that video. Not remotely as a "wing." I think he could possibly be a very nice backup big, eventually, and maybe even the type who can switch on picks and hold his own, but something tells me you're seeing him as a wing, and THAT's what I don't see. I believe that if, in that body, he's really a combo forward, and not a mobile, athletic big, he'll get drafted in the top 20. Long, athletic wings are the thing EVERY team wants right now.