2019-2020 Mavs Trade Discussion + Salary Chart

[ClutchDirk]

https://twitter.com/iztok_franko/status/...0353385473

[Fuerza1]

I brought up multiple advanced stats but you continue to focus on RPM. Okay ignore DRPM. What about his steal and block totals? What about his on/off numbers?
What is your case? Why isn´t RoCo as good as the defensive numbers suggest?

Because you won´t make the case against RoCo I might as well do it myself. Any case against RoCo as an elite defender starts with his onball defense. It´s good but not special. He certainly isn´t a one vs one lockdown defender.

That´s a conversation we can have. Especially when it comes to fit on the Mavs. Personally I think that great team/help defense is more important than good man defense but the Mavs obviously need someone to cover the best opposing player. There are a lot of players that can do a better job against the Lillards or Hardens of the league. Some of them probably cheaper and younger.

"All those "advanced defensive statistics" are flawed." D-PIPM, plus/minus, on/off, DRPM etc. all of them. There are countless examples. 

Towns, who you believe is a trash defender, has great on/off and +/- numbers. You point to his DRPM solidifying his poor defense. Some stats says he is good, some say are bad. The eye test fluctuates depending on who you ask.

D-PIPM rates DeAndre Jordan as the 7th best defender in the league this season. Cauley-Stein is ranked 9th. Powell has a better D-PIPM than Porzingis this season.

Avery Bradley is 2x All-Defense with multiple DPOY votes yet his on/off, +/-, and DRPM aren't quite stellar. Klay Thompson is considered an elite defender yet his advanced numbers aren't quite stellar either. Which is it?

That is the main point I am driving home. These "advanced defensive statistics" or media accolades make some guys look a lot better than they really are or a lot worse than they are. Is Covington as elite as they say? Is he really a DPOY worthy player that puts him in Draymond's, Kawhi's, Gobert's tier? Is he worth forking over all these assets?

I already explained why his defensive numbers aren't as great as they suggest and you told me to "go watch some tape." I've watched enough of RoCo to draw my own opinions that he is not an elite defender, nothing special. But that is apparently a crazy take. And yes his on-ball defense is why I feel that way.

But your preference is offball, help defense. That is fine but I respectfully disagree to an extent. My belief is that we need better individual defenders to slow down the top scorers in the league. Good teams won't turn over the ball often. There is more 1-on-1 defense in the playoffs. 

But this is all rather meaningless because Covington won't be a Maverick. And I'll apologize if I offended any body with the groupies comment. The way y'all were talking about him, I thought he was an actual rockstar legend a la Mick Jagger. My bad. Ok that is my last joke. Please, mods don't ban me!!! Nothing but peace and love from me!!

[ItsGoTime]

I brought up multiple advanced stats but you continue to focus on RPM. Okay ignore DRPM. What about his steal and block totals? What about his on/off numbers?
What is your case? Why isn´t RoCo as good as the defensive numbers suggest?

Because you won´t make the case against RoCo I might as well do it myself. Any case against RoCo as an elite defender starts with his onball defense. It´s good but not special. He certainly isn´t a one vs one lockdown defender.

That´s a conversation we can have. Especially when it comes to fit on the Mavs. Personally I think that great team/help defense is more important than good man defense but the Mavs obviously need someone to cover the best opposing player. There are a lot of players that can do a better job against the Lillards or Hardens of the league. Some of them probably cheaper and younger.

"All those "advanced defensive statistics" are flawed." D-PIPM, plus/minus, on/off, DRPM etc. all of them. There are countless examples. 

Towns, who you believe is a trash defender, has great on/off and +/- numbers. You point to his DRPM solidifying his poor defense. Some stats says he is good, some say are bad. The eye test fluctuates depending on who you ask.

D-PIPM rates DeAndre Jordan as the 7th best defender in the league this season. Cauley-Stein is ranked 9th. Powell has a better D-PIPM than Porzingis this season.

Avery Bradley is 2x All-Defense with multiple DPOY votes yet his on/off, +/-, and DRPM aren't quite stellar. Klay Thompson is considered an elite defender yet his advanced numbers aren't quite stellar either. Which is it?

That is the main point I am driving home. These "advanced defensive statistics" or media accolades make some guys look a lot better than they really are or a lot worse than they are. Is Covington as elite as they say? Is he really a DPOY worthy player that puts him in Draymond's, Kawhi's, Gobert's tier? Is he worth forking over all these assets?

I already explained why his defensive numbers aren't as great as they suggest and you told me to "go watch some tape." I've watched enough of RoCo to draw my own opinions that he is not an elite defender, nothing special. But that is apparently a crazy take. And yes his on-ball defense is why I feel that way.

But your preference is offball, help defense. That is fine but I respectfully disagree to an extent. My belief is that we need better individual defenders to slow down the top scorers in the league. Good teams won't turn over the ball often. There is more 1-on-1 defense in the playoffs. 

But this is all rather meaningless because Covington won't be a Maverick. And I'll apologize if I offended any body with the groupies comment. The way y'all were talking about him, I thought he was an actual rockstar legend a la Mick Jagger. My bad. Ok that is my last joke. Please, mods don't ban me!!! Nothing but peace and love from me!!

Some of the name calling was over the top, but nothing I see in here that is even close to ban-worthy. If we all agreed on everything, this place would suck soooooo bad!

[DanSchwartzgan]

Could someone please be the grown up here and quit cluttering up the Trade thread with another long running personal argument.  Start a new thread if necessary.  Hell, I'll start the new thread.  Please carry this on there.

[dirkfansince1998]

I brought up multiple advanced stats but you continue to focus on RPM. Okay ignore DRPM. What about his steal and block totals? What about his on/off numbers?
What is your case? Why isn´t RoCo as good as the defensive numbers suggest?

Because you won´t make the case against RoCo I might as well do it myself. Any case against RoCo as an elite defender starts with his onball defense. It´s good but not special. He certainly isn´t a one vs one lockdown defender.

That´s a conversation we can have. Especially when it comes to fit on the Mavs. Personally I think that great team/help defense is more important than good man defense but the Mavs obviously need someone to cover the best opposing player. There are a lot of players that can do a better job against the Lillards or Hardens of the league. Some of them probably cheaper and younger.

"All those "advanced defensive statistics" are flawed." D-PIPM, plus/minus, on/off, DRPM etc. all of them. There are countless examples. 

Towns, who you believe is a trash defender, has great on/off and +/- numbers. You point to his DRPM solidifying his poor defense. Some stats says he is good, some say are bad. The eye test fluctuates depending on who you ask.

D-PIPM rates DeAndre Jordan as the 7th best defender in the league this season. Cauley-Stein is ranked 9th. Powell has a better D-PIPM than Porzingis this season.

Avery Bradley is 2x All-Defense with multiple DPOY votes yet his on/off, +/-, and DRPM aren't quite stellar. Klay Thompson is considered an elite defender yet his advanced numbers aren't quite stellar either. Which is it?

That is the main point I am driving home. These "advanced defensive statistics" or media accolades make some guys look a lot better than they really are or a lot worse than they are. Is Covington as elite as they say? Is he really a DPOY worthy player that puts him in Draymond's, Kawhi's, Gobert's tier? Is he worth forking over all these assets?

I already explained why his defensive numbers aren't as great as they suggest and you told me to "go watch some tape." I've watched enough of RoCo to draw my own opinions that he is not an elite defender, nothing special. But that is apparently a crazy take. And yes his on-ball defense is why I feel that way.

But your preference is offball, help defense. That is fine but I respectfully disagree to an extent. My belief is that we need better individual defenders to slow down the top scorers in the league. Good teams won't turn over the ball often. There is more 1-on-1 defense in the playoffs. 

But this is all rather meaningless because Covington won't be a Maverick. And I'll apologize if I offended any body with the groupies comment. The way y'all were talking about him, I thought he was an actual rockstar legend a la Mick Jagger. My bad. Ok that is my last joke. Please, mods don't ban me!!! Nothing but peace and love from me!!

Some of the name calling was over the top, but nothing I see in here that is even close to ban-worthy. If we all agreed on everything, this place would suck soooooo bad!

Nothing over the top and most of us do similiar things when we are passionate about a certain topic.

---

Could someone please be the grown up here and quit cluttering up the Trade thread with another long running personal argument.  Start a new thread if necessary.  Hell, I'll start the new thread.  Please carry this on there.

I think we are done and sadly all the RoCo talk probably won´t lead to anything. Timberwolves want more than any team is willing to give.

[Mavs2019]

We need a player that is a better scorer than Porzingis for the overall health and balance of this squad.

Very simply put: Luka does everything on offense and Porzingsi does everything on defense.

The other four are just offensive or defensive roleplayers. That´s not a winning formular.

I think we have enough on the roster to get defensive stops, when it matters. I don´t think we have enough to score, when the other team ups their defensive intensity and focus.

Now with Luka being injured short-term trades make no sense.

[dirkfansince1998]

I brought up multiple advanced stats but you continue to focus on RPM. Okay ignore DRPM. What about his steal and block totals? What about his on/off numbers?
What is your case? Why isn´t RoCo as good as the defensive numbers suggest?

Because you won´t make the case against RoCo I might as well do it myself. Any case against RoCo as an elite defender starts with his onball defense. It´s good but not special. He certainly isn´t a one vs one lockdown defender.

That´s a conversation we can have. Especially when it comes to fit on the Mavs. Personally I think that great team/help defense is more important than good man defense but the Mavs obviously need someone to cover the best opposing player. There are a lot of players that can do a better job against the Lillards or Hardens of the league. Some of them probably cheaper and younger.

"All those "advanced defensive statistics" are flawed." D-PIPM, plus/minus, on/off, DRPM etc. all of them. There are countless examples. 

Towns, who you believe is a trash defender, has great on/off and +/- numbers. You point to his DRPM solidifying his poor defense. Some stats says he is good, some say are bad. The eye test fluctuates depending on who you ask.

D-PIPM rates DeAndre Jordan as the 7th best defender in the league this season. Cauley-Stein is ranked 9th. Powell has a better D-PIPM than Porzingis this season.

Avery Bradley is 2x All-Defense with multiple DPOY votes yet his on/off, +/-, and DRPM aren't quite stellar. Klay Thompson is considered an elite defender yet his advanced numbers aren't quite stellar either. Which is it?

That is the main point I am driving home. These "advanced defensive statistics" or media accolades make some guys look a lot better than they really are or a lot worse than they are. Is Covington as elite as they say? Is he really a DPOY worthy player that puts him in Draymond's, Kawhi's, Gobert's tier? Is he worth forking over all these assets?

I already explained why his defensive numbers aren't as great as they suggest and you told me to "go watch some tape." I've watched enough of RoCo to draw my own opinions that he is not an elite defender, nothing special. But that is apparently a crazy take. And yes his on-ball defense is why I feel that way.

But your preference is offball, help defense. That is fine but I respectfully disagree to an extent. My belief is that we need better individual defenders to slow down the top scorers in the league. Good teams won't turn over the ball often. There is more 1-on-1 defense in the playoffs. 

But this is all rather meaningless because Covington won't be a Maverick. And I'll apologize if I offended any body with the groupies comment. The way y'all were talking about him, I thought he was an actual rockstar legend a la Mick Jagger. My bad. Ok that is my last joke. Please, mods don't ban me!!! Nothing but peace and love from me!!

See...that´s what I wanted. A more thoughtful conversation. I agree that a lot of the advanced defensive metrics are questionable (especially DRPM with an unknown formula) but my point was that no matter the metric RoCo always comes out on top. He has the boxscore numbers to impact stats like DBPM and the +/- numbers to impact stats like RPM and RAPM.

I don´t think raw on/off data is flawed. Just needs some context (lineups/rotations/matchups). Towns solid +/- numbers are easily explained by his great offense. The Timberwolves ranked 2nd in defensive rating without him (15 games). Since his return they are a bottom ten defense. He obviously does not look as bad in boxscore metrics like DBPM and his shot contest tracking suggests that he is doing a good job around the rim. Same is true for Deandre or WCS. Solid shot contest data combined with rebounding.

One of the reasons why I prefer good team defenders over good man defenders is actually that in most cases the team defender looks better in +/- metrics. Would add that in the modern switch heavy league the value of individual defense isn´t as big as it used to be. Teams will simply run screens to get the prefered matchup.  Great team defenders (obviously combined with a good defensive scheme) and versatile wings are the best option against switches.
I think in the last few years (3-5) Draymond, RoCo and Smart were the best non big team and help defenders in the league. That´s why I have a high opinion of them and most if not all stats seem to agree with me.

I think onball defenders like Bradley or Thompson actually get punished by some metrics because they defend the best opposing scorer most of the time. It certainly influences their raw on/off and +/- data and has an impact on their shot contest data.

Other players like Kawhi or even LeBron can be among the best defenders in the league if they really try but in most games they aren´t going all out. Kawhi actually is looking better than he did last year but when he was with the Raptors he did not look like a DPOY.

[StepBackJay]

We need a player that is a better scorer than Porzingis for the overall health and balance of this squad.

Very simply put: Luka does everything on offense and Porzingsi does everything on defense.

The other four are just offensive or defensive roleplayers. That´s not a winning formular.

I think we have enough on the roster to get defensive stops, when it matters. I don´t think we have enough to score, when the other team ups their defensive intensity and focus.

Now with Luka being injured short-term trades make no sense.

He's only out 2 weeks. Short term moves would be made to advance Mavs further in the playoffs and also make sure they get to the playoffs in the first place. Not sure Mavs would trade GSW for a short term player but they might give up a lower 2nd.

[IamDougieFresh]

Aaron Gordon

[DanSchwartzgan]

Aaron Gordon

Is that a report, a prediction or a desire?

[Scott41theMavs]

We need a player that is a better scorer than Porzingis for the overall health and balance of this squad.

Very simply put: Luka does everything on offense and Porzingsi does everything on defense.

The other four are just offensive or defensive roleplayers. That´s not a winning formular.

I think we have enough on the roster to get defensive stops, when it matters. I don´t think we have enough to score, when the other team ups their defensive intensity and focus.

Now with Luka being injured short-term trades make no sense.

He's only out 2 weeks. Short term moves would be made to advance Mavs further in the playoffs and also make sure they get to the playoffs in the first place. Not sure Mavs would trade GSW for a short term player but they might give up a lower 2nd.

I definitely don't want "short-term trades," like Iggy rentals, but the Mavs need to use the tools they have for acquisition - the TPE and Lee - with a few sweeteners to upgrade their talent quotient. They put themselves in a position to not be able to afford not acquiring talent for those two tools by botching the offseason so badly. Gotta see some moves.

[IamDougieFresh]

Aaron Gordon

Is that a report, a prediction or a desire?

Yes

[StepBackJay]

Aaron Gordon

Is that a report, a prediction or a desire?

I saw an article saying Wolves might be trying to move Gordon for RoCo which would make some sense. I think it would have to be RoCo + something else like Culver. I could see a deal like that. I could definitely see Wolves just standing pat if they can't get a deal they like.

[aguiar95]

Is any of this guys obtainable?

Bridges (PHO): Brunson + GSW Pick? RoCo project.
Thybulle (PHI): Curry + Brunson + GSW Pick for him and Korkmaz? Very young good prospects.
Gay (SAS): Lee + Jackson + GSW pick ? I feel like he can be a 12ppg and move DFS to the bench.
Harkless (LAC): Is one of the contracts they could move for Morris/Iggy/Young, maybe Lee + GSW pick for the team that gets him (NYK/MEM/CHI)?

[StepBackJay]

Still feeling like Iguodala will be the guy. Mavs will send a lower 2nd round pick bc Memphis will have no better option. The reason why that is of course is that you need a fairly sizable expiring contract for you to even make a legal trade. Most teams don't have that and when you whittle down the number of teams that will want to rent a 35 year old player it's even less. 

The problem is you need to like Iguodala better than the expiring guy you already have. So for the Heat they would have to like Iguodala more than Dragic. For Clips they would need to like him more than Harkless. Bottom line it's probably Mavs or buyout.

Mavs probably offered GSW + Lee this summer when it was going to be a low pick and Grizz decided to wait to see if they could get anything better. Now that the GSW pick is much more valuable I really doubt it's still on the table. Mavs know Memphis will likely have few other options. I am having a hard time remembering teams spending anything good on a guy that was a pure rental, ie very little chance of retaining him in the offseason. I thought maybe Denver had given up a pick for Devin Harris a couple of years ago but actually the Mavs gave up a pick for McDermott who they thought they could resign.

If all this falls through, Mavs could end up picking up a cheap FA they trust, like Harris or someone better but they will be in line behind top contenders. Harris at least would be a guy that Rick would play occasionally. I don't think it's going to come to that because I believe Iguodala is the guy. It will be a worthless pick they send but for Memphis it's better than nothing plus losing face that they couldn't trade him after all this time.

I would love RoCo (you could actually do both deals if you think ab it) but I still think it's going to be hard to pry him away.

---

Is any of this guys obtainable?

Bridges (PHO): Brunson + GSW Pick? RoCo project.
Thybulle (PHI): Curry + Brunson + GSW Pick for him and Korkmaz? Very young good prospects.
Gay (SAS): Lee + Jackson + GSW pick ? I feel like he can be a 12ppg and move DFS to the bench.
Harkless (LAC): Is one of the contracts they could move for Morris/Iggy/Young, maybe Lee + GSW pick for the team that gets him (NYK/MEM/CHI)?

I don't think Mavs want to give up Brunson so any deal that ships him out probably won't happen.

Trading for Gay is kind of interesting. I would definitely be down with that trade, I don't recall Mavs and Spurs ever trading anybody. Not sure Spurs are ready to move on yet, they still have a chance to make the playoffs.

Could definitely see Harkless on the move somewhere if Clips can find a better fit. Harkless is still young and fairly productive tho so they might want to keep him? I have no idea why the Mavs weren't in on that deal that would have gotten them Harkless and a pick just for taking his money on last summer.

[vfromlmf]

Man I'm telling you guys. So many people here are selling Igoudala short because he's "old." How quickly people forget old Vince Carter bombing a three to beat the Spurs in the playoffs; or Marion and Kidd in 2011. 

Guys, teams play to win now. I want to win in the playoffs this year. We can figure out next year, when it's next year. It's not like the entire board won't be posting 80 pages of trade ideas two months before the 2021 trade deadline. It's not like Igoudala's salary is going to be a problem. Mavs aren't giving up even a first round pick. My goodness.

Just look at how Portland is playing now with Ariza? He's an old so called "has been" role player. But he bumped a couple scrubs (Hezonja, Baze) who can't play and now they're winning and looking good doing so. If Portland suddenly goes on a run and makes the playoffs, and Dame goes into beast mode in thr first round, tell me who in Portland is going to cry "oh, but one of our rotation players is so old and won't be here forever..." ??? Nonsense.

Just because a guy is in his mid-thirties doesn't mean he can't play. 

Hell, Lebron is 35.

Justin Jackson may be a decent player someday but honestly I think he stinks right now. Igoudala in his rocking chair is a huge upgrade. If the Mavs can land Iggy, and Luka goes bonkers in the playoffs, this team can beat anyone.

[Baller AI]

Man I'm telling you guys. So many people here are selling Igoudala short because he's "old." How quickly people forget old Vince Carter bombing a three to beat the Spurs in the playoffs; or Marion and Kidd in 2011. 

Guys, teams play to win now. I want to win in the playoffs this year. We can figure out next year, when it's next year. It's not like Igoudala's salary is going to be a problem. Mavs aren't giving up even first round pick. My goodness.

Just look at how Portland is playing now with Ariza? He's an old so called "has been" role player. But he bumped a scrub (Hezonja) who can't play and now they're winning and looking good doing so. If Portland suddenly goes on a run and makes the playoffs, and Dame goes into beast mode in thr first round, tell me who in Portland is going to cry "oh, but one of our rotation players is so old and won't be here forever..." ??? Nonsense.

Just because a guy is in his mid-thirties doesn't mean he can't play. 

Hell, Lebron is 35.

Justin Jackson may be a decent player someday but honestly I think he stinks right now. Igoudala in his rocking chair is a huge upgrade. If the Mavs can land Iggy, and Luka goes bonkers in the playoffs, this team can beat anyone.

AGREED, not to mention IGGY has been just training this entire time, so he could arguably be better than the last couple years with an extended rest for once.

---

Is any of this guys obtainable?

Bridges (PHO): Brunson + GSW Pick? RoCo project.
Thybulle (PHI): Curry + Brunson + GSW Pick for him and Korkmaz? Very young good prospects.
Gay (SAS): Lee + Jackson + GSW pick ? I feel like he can be a 12ppg and move DFS to the bench.
Harkless (LAC): Is one of the contracts they could move for Morris/Iggy/Young, maybe Lee + GSW pick for the team that gets him (NYK/MEM/CHI)?

only trade I would consider is Bridges. You guys seriously devaluing that GSW 2nd.

[vfromlmf]

THJ + Lee + Brunson + GSW #2 --> WIZ
John Wall + Troy Brown Jr + Admiral Schofield --> DAL

[dirkfansince1998]

THJ + Lee + Brunson + GSW #2 --> WIZ
John Wall + Troy Brown Jr + Admiral Schofield --> DAL

I think the Mavs deserve more compensation. Wall is a 29 year old PG on a super max deal coming back from a torn achilles.  He will make 129mio over the next 3 seasons. Might be the worst contract in the league.

[IamDougieFresh]

THJ + Lee + Brunson + GSW #2 --> WIZ
John Wall + Troy Brown Jr + Admiral Schofield --> DAL