Of Freedom, Country and Vaccination

[omahen]

https://twitter.com/CowboysNation/status...35716?s=20

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I truly don't understand why that guy still has a job in the league. It drives me crazy. You could get close to the same level of play by planting a tree in the dunker spot.

I am not familiar with the details of anti Covid rules in US, so I am wondering why is the twitt above newsworthy:
a) because the standard around the country is that only vaccinated people can attend?
b) because some venues don't require negative test or proof of vaccination?
c) something else?

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To further explain - for Slovenia the rule is negative test and vaccination, exceptions for venues not possible

[KillerLeft]

To further explain - for Slovenia the rule is negative test and vaccination, exceptions for venues not possible

Americans have a sort of attitude about freedom. It's not really as unique in the world as most Americans believe, but the idea that we're better than other people "because freedom" is sort of woven into our culture. Since the vast majority of people (in any country) are shockingly stupid (at least in my experience) this idea manifests itself in some truly ridiculous ways here in the US on a fairly regular basis.

On this topic there is an ongoing debate about whether it's ok to force someone to take a vaccine. Basically, it offends some Americans for ANY new thing to be "forced" on them for ANY reason. So, that type has gotten busy inventing reasons not to do the thing that our society is asking them to do. 

So yes, this is news, believe it or not. It should be common sense, but I guarantee you there are people who are very angry about this announcement. The best part is that many of them aren't even people who would go to games anyway - they're just excited to have something new to complain about. 

Great place to live, and I'm proud to belong here. But my goodness it's embarrassing sometimes.

[omahen]

On this topic there is an ongoing debate on whether it's ok to force someone to take a vaccine. Basically, it offends some Americans for ANY new thing to be "forced" on them for ANY reason. So, that type has gotten busy inventing reasons not to do the thing that our society is asking them to do. 

So yes, this is news, believe it or not. It should be common sense, but I guarantee you there are people who are very angry about this announcement. The best part is that many of them aren't even people who would go to games anyway - they're just excited to have something new to complain about. 

Situation is basically the same here, the only difference is that vaccination or negative test is a rule for all public indoor places. In reality rarely anyone is actually checking if people have it.

Same as in US people hate restrictions and a lot of are quick to "waive the democracy and human rights flag", which is understood by them as "I am allowed to basically do what I want and no one is allowed to prevent me from doing it". Basically same thing you explain above.

[KillerLeft]

"I am allowed to basically do what I want and no one is allowed to prevent me from doing it"

Yep, that's the thing. 

I guess the difference here is that the different states, counties and cities are handling the situation differently. Local government is kind of a big deal here, where as I assume it's not such a big deal in Slovenia due to the size difference. I guess it's appropriate to compare Slovenia to a state, not to the US as whole, at least in some ways. 

Anyway, TX is one of the MOST "I am allowed to basically do what I want and no one is allowed to prevent me from doing it" places in the US - that's how people get elected here. There are some great things that come with that - our economy doesn't often tank, you can start a business here, you can buy a house here, etc, etc. But, there are lots of confused folks who live here, too. 

So, this is Cuban making a choice about what to do with his business/arena when it's NOT required that he approach it this way by the local government (at least I THINK that's the situation). 

[luka_skywalker_77]

Americans have a sort of attitude about freedom. It's not really as unique in the world as most Americans believe, but the idea that we're better than other people "because freedom" is sort of woven into our culture. Since the vast majority of people (in any country) are shockingly stupid (at least in my experience) this idea manifests itself in some truly ridiculous ways here in the US on a fairly regular basis.

On this topic there is an ongoing debate about whether it's ok to force someone to take a vaccine. Basically, it offends some Americans for ANY new thing to be "forced" on them for ANY reason. So, that type has gotten busy inventing reasons not to do the thing that our society is asking them to do. 

So yes, this is news, believe it or not. It should be common sense, but I guarantee you there are people who are very angry about this announcement. The best part is that many of them aren't even people who would go to games anyway - they're just excited to have something new to complain about. 

Great place to live, and I'm proud to belong here. But my goodness it's embarrassing sometimes.

Freedom is what sets the US apart from any other country in civilization and it's quite the shame that people these days seem to not understand that. That's the undeniable reality that the modern generation seeks to wash away; that we are comparably speaking, the litmus test of civilization. They'd rather fade into the distance like homer next to a bush, and be comfortable with it. reason I'm not attending is because pretty soon that mandate will require a 3rd and a fourth in order to attend and I'm not doing any more than i've already done and many people feel the same way. t's been nothing but lies from day one, so I'll take my chances. You've already got your vaccine so nothing else is of your concern, right?

The rest of what you said kind of falls in line with that sentiment, so I don't think i need to comment on that. Plenty has been said on this topic enough to not have to address vaccine fascism ad nauseum. I don't call people like that that share your opinion stupid; just misinformed and ignorant and otherwise clueless about a lot of things not told to them by the mainstream thought police.

The dumb part of your statement, is this notion that anyone's vaccination status matters one bit. All people spread the virus the same; there is zero difference between the two groups of people, so taking a test or flashing a card that says you did is useless scientifically arrogant. But we can have that conversation OT in another thread, but suffice to say, I have nothing but proper contempt for people using force coercion to get someone to inject an experimental compound into their bodies just because they did. 

So get your vax; get 7 if you want; I have mine and let everyone else do whatever the hell they want because its none of your business period. They have far more legitimate reasons to feel the way they do and i promise you that you never spent one minutes speaking with more than 1 person about that. And if you don't like it, your opinion (nor your opinion of me and others that feel the way i do) is none of our businesses.

Anyways, i got more gas on this but I'm not going to waste too much time. I'm that guy today so i'll just keep back in the shadows. I've said my piece.

(and don't take killer's word for how things are in the US; he's a voice of a certain group of people acting in a way that's highly favorable to a cult; one that feels any sort of freedom on what you do should be mandated by a central authority, under the guise of a certain political affiliation--so he's not an ambassador of rational American thought but he's smart about round ball stuff so I'd give him a pass on the political, faux science-y stuff).

[KillerLeft]

Freedom is what sets the US apart from any other country in civilization and it's quite the shame that people these days seem to not understand that.

Both of my Grandfathers and a step Grandfather fought in WWII, my guy. I've lost them all now, but believe me I've talked with them for HOURS about what that meant to them - why it was important. 

Did you miss the part where @"omahen" just basically said everything is the same in his country? My point is not that freedom isn't great, it's that the US is not the only country that has freedom. Far, far from it. I've spent time in China, Turkey and Greece. All of those places were quite different from our country, but in all of those places people actually seemed fairly free. Some of what we think we have over everyone else in this world is only our head. I know that to be factual, not my opinion, because I've been there. I've seen it. Now...would I want to live anywhere else? No, I'm an American! There are definitely things that make me love America above all other countries, but what we're talking about here is not one of them.

They have far more legitimate reasons to feel the way they do and i promise you that you never spent one minutes speaking with more than 1 person about that.

Some do. Many, many don't. I have spoken to some on both sides of that coin. At the end of the day, it's kind of not something I feel falls into the "none of our business" category, actually. It's a matter of public health, yeah? Clearly, not everyone agrees with this take because there are some who feel exactly like you do. Even as I was typing the earlier post, I knew it was a bad idea to post it. It wasn't my intention to trigger anyone (or to bring politics into this forum at all). I apologize for doing so. 

But, every assumption you just made about me is false. That's ok.

[Mavs2021]

I never understand why the business owners have no freedom in these scenarios. You don´t go to Starbucks and ask them to make you burgers, because you respect their business decision to sell coffee. So why would a "proof of vaccination"-demand be any different? It´s part of their free decision/business model. If you don´t like it, you don´t purchase their product.

[luka_skywalker_77]

Both of my Grandfathers and a step Grandfather fought in WWII, my guy. I've lost them all now, but believe me I've talked with them for HOURS about what that meant to them - why it was important. 

Did you miss the part where @"omahen" just basically said everything is the same in his country? My point is not that freedom isn't great, it's that the US is not the only country that has freedom. Far, far from it. I've spent time in China, Turkey and Greece. All of those places were quite different from our country, but in all of those places people actually seemed fairly free. Some of what we think we have over everyone else in this world is only our head. I know that to be factual, not my opinion, because I've been there. I've seen it. Now...would I want to live anywhere else? No, I'm an American! There are definitely things that make me love America above all other countries, but what we're talking about here is not one of them.



Some do. Many, many don't. I have spoken to some on both sides of that coin. At the end of the day, it's kind of not something I feel falls into the "none of our business" category, actually. It's a matter of public health, yeah? Clearly, not everyone agrees with this take because there are some who feel exactly like you do. Even as I was typing the earlier post, I knew it was a bad idea to post it. It wasn't my intention to trigger anyone (or to bring politics into this forum at all). I apologize for doing so. 

But, every assumption you just made about me is false. That's ok.

What i am saying is that your health and anything regarding it is of no concern to anyone else, even in this situation because the preventative measure dont stop you from getting it or passing it. Plus there are risk calculation that we all need to make on a personal level because their circumstances are not the same as everyone elses. The data doesn't even support what they are trying to do and if you dont agree, we have a years worth of data to trawl through (large scale events) to indicate whether or not the event spiked cases counts of deaths. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that the data isn't in your favor, otherwise it would have been a major topic of discussion. This is just another ham-fisted attempt at solving an issue by doing any and everything but. 

And it wasn't my intension to **** at you; i's just tired of interfacing with the lack of critical thinking on behalf of most people i talk to about these things (present company excluded). but what we have in this country matters, even if you dont agree with the application and often times people lose sight of that despite their histories and their knowledge on the subject.

That freedom, that difference, needs to be respected and given that youre vaccinated, youve done your part to keep yourself "safe", but your idea of safe doesn't place a demand on someone else to follow your example, especially when there is little to no difference between both ideas.

The difference is your freedom requires me to inject an experimental solution into my body, in order to enjoy the freedom i already had/given to me via citizenship/birthright/human. That's the problem. It's not like a seat belt.

[Jmaciscool]

That freedom, that difference, needs to be respected and given that youre vaccinated, youve done your part to keep yourself "safe", but your idea of safe doesn't place a demand on someone else to follow your example, especially when there is little to no difference between both ideas.

The difference is your freedom requires me to inject an experimental solution into my body, in order to enjoy the freedom i already had/given to me via citizenship/birthright/human. That's the problem. It's not like a seat belt.

I think the concern that many have over people not getting vaccinated is due to the increased amount of hospitalizations which puts a huge strain on the healthcare system (along with the increased chance of the virus mutating into more dangerous strains).  As you said, the vaccine isn't 100% effective, but it does reduce the likelihood of getting/spreading it.  So it's not a matter of "I make my choice, you make yours, and there aren't any consequences to either of us based on those choices" since whether or not someone is vaccinated has an overall impact on the group at large.

Funnily enough, I think the seat belt example is a case where the personal freedom crowd would have a very good point (and maybe that's what you were saying too).  Choosing to wear a seatbelt or not wear a seatbelt impacts you, but does not impact me.  So I could see a valid "personal freedom" argument for that scenario, but I don't follow it for vaccines.

Just my two cents, not trying to convince you of anything or be insulting (hopefully it's not coming across that way), just trying to explain a perspective.

[fifteenth]

All, forgive me if this doesn't work and deletes your posts. Inspired by another post that shouldn't be in the NEWS thread, I'm going to attempt something I haven't done before. Let's see what the "split" option does.

[fifteenth]

Check it out. Splitting posts works. 

Not that anyone is required to continue the conversation. But here's a place where you can do it while allowing others to peruse the News thread without stumbling into this conversation.

[dirkfansince1998]

@"fifteenth" going full mod mode on us. I like it.

To add a few things...

Freedom is what sets the US apart from any other country in civilization and it's quite the shame that people these days seem to not understand that.

Compared to North Korea or Afghanistan. Sure. Compared to Western Europe, Canada, New Zealand or Australia. Not so much. Take a look at the freedom index, democracy index, press freedom index or similar projects. Sad part is that the US are actually on a downwards spiral. And it´s not because of mask or vaccination mandates.

No, I'm an American! There are definitely things that make me love America above all other countries, but what we're talking about here is not one of them.

And that´s fair. Having lived in both the US and Germany I don´t really feel a tangible difference when it comes to personal freedom. We still have mask mandates and now we are seeing a similar development when it comes to vaccinations.
Not to say that we don´t have our own weird freedom discussions. Current topic (honestly a popular topic all the time)...speed limit. Feels like every single developed country in the world enforces a speed limit. Not Germany. You cannot take away our freedom to go 150mph on the "Autobahn". Who cares about traffic deaths or climate change. I really don´t get them.
I would put all mentioned examples in the same category. My personal freedom ends when it starts to impact the freedom of others. We even had an interesting ruling from the Federal Constitutional Court. Forcing the current government to be more active in the fight against climate change because not doing enough would have an impact on the life and freedom of future generations.

[fifteenth]

@"fifteenth" going full mod mode on us. I like it.

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I'd say still try to not skew ad hominem even if this is a "enter at your own risk" thread. Let's try to be different from the rest of the internet, respect each other, and make an attempt at worthwhile conversation that brings each side to a better understanding of the other.

[ClutchDirk]

https://giphy.com/gifs/postcode-loterij-...7n4WfllsQP

[SleepingHero]

Far, far from it. I've spent time in China, Turkey and Greece. All of those places were quite different from our country, but in all of those places people actually seemed fairly free.

KL I agree with you on a lot of things here, but in no way will I ever concede that China and Turkey seem free. Both of those places if you talk bad about the government could have you wound up in a re-education camp (read concentration) or worse. 

Those places are dictatorships/authoritarian governments with a capitalistic enterprise that allows their citizens to enjoy the innovations of actually free places. But in no way are their citizens actually free.

[Fromthecorner]

I have been a long time Maverick season ticket holder.  This season’s tickets were actually paid for over a year and a half as a result of the COVID impact.  While I will wear a mask when it’s required, I have zero interest in wearing a mask for three hours, paying outrageous ticket prices and having my glasses fog up the whole time.  I wonder if Cuban will refund all of my money because of his rule?  This is not what I paid for and I believe there is a breach of contract accordingly.

[cow]

Go to China and ask the Uyghurs about freedom.  Goodness gracious. 

American exceptionalism is a thing as is Texas Pride.  Living overseas for four years was a great education and really highlighted those two things for me.  

As far as vaccines are concerned, I'm vaccinated and believe in vaccines.  I do have an unfortunate associate who experienced one of the outlier side effects of Moderna.  She lost lung capacity and this is her 5th month of being on oxygen.  Her doctors don't know if she'll ever regain full usage of her lungs and she's resigned to the fact that she'll be on oxygen the rest of her life. 

I'm not really down with our government telling anyone to get vaccines.  I'm fine with businesses and establishes creating their own rules for employees and patrons.

[MFFL]

I have nothing but proper contempt for people using force coercion to get someone to inject an experimental compound into their bodies just because they did. 

If people who are refusing to get the Covid vaccine would also refuse treatment if/when they GET Covid then they have the right to do whatever the fuck they want

But these anti-vaxxers are flooding our hospitals to the point where there might not be an ICU bed available if you need it (car wreck, heart attack, etc). Plus they are overworking our health care workers because of their selfishness

So either they man up and refuse TREATMENT the same way they refuse the shot or they should shut the fuck up

[cow]

If people who are refusing to get the Covid vaccine would also refuse treatment if/when they GET Covid then they have the right to do whatever the fuck they want

But these anti-vaxxers are flooding our hospitals to the point where there might not be an ICU bed available if you need it (car wreck, heart attack, etc). Plus they are overworking our health care workers because of their selfishness

So either they man up and refuse TREATMENT the same way they refuse the shot or they should shut the fuck up

Just to play devil's advocate:  Can we also reject care for smokers and the obese if they are vaccinated?  There are idiots in every emergency room that have self inflected injuries.  Should those folks go to the back of the line?  Triage outside of immediate need is a really slippery slope.

[ClutchDirk]

Coming soon to a Cato article...