2020-2021 ROSTER TALK: Archived

[HanspardShowerVoice]

I don't have any insights than anyone else has, but I doubt KP is a lockerroom problem.    His problems and displeasure with the Knicks front office/management were entirely understandable, and he shouldn't deserve a bad reptutation for that.   Does anyone think DeShaun Watson is a lockerroom cancer for wanting out of Houston?  

I do understand that the Mavs are growing weary about building a franchise around a cornerstone piece that will miss 1/3rd of his games either through reoccuring nagging injuries and/or load management.   To say "We took a chance on an asset we believed was available at a very affordable price, we've got to evaluate it for a while now and see the ceiling is limited here, and now we are going to flip that asset for another asset we value highly and could be a better fit with Luka" in a SnT for Collins this summer is entirely viable.

[StepBackJay]

I don't have any insights than anyone else has, but I doubt KP is a lockerroom problem.    His problems and displeasure with the Knicks front office/management were entirely understandable, and he shouldn't deserve a bad reptutation for that.   Does anyone think DeShaun Watson is a lockerroom cancer for wanting out of Houston?  

I do understand that the Mavs are growing weary about building a franchise around a cornerstone piece that will miss 1/3rd of his games either through reoccuring nagging injuries and/or load management.   To say "We took a chance on an asset we believed was available at a very affordable price, we've got to evaluate it for a while now and see the ceiling is limited here, and now we are going to flip that asset for another asset we value highly and could be a better fit with Luka" in a SnT for Collins this summer is entirely viable.

My issue with KP is if he isn't going to play defense then I'd rather have Gallo or Bertans at a lower price tag + additional assets.

[dirkfansince1998]

We traded FOR KP while he was injured. That is the bottom of his value. Getting back the same type of package isn't gonna work for me. If he can't get back MORE than we gave up, I'm out on a KP trade and everyone else should be too. He might get worse, there is that possibility. I see that as a small possibility with the bigger one being that he gets much better.

But it really isn´t. He wasn´t on a max deal when the Mavs traded for him and if he gets worse or continues to miss games his trade value will obviously tank even more.
We can certainly discuss what is more likely but we have to acknowledge that we probably haven´t reached rock bottom.

[omahen]

You aren't adding a third star to Luka and KP in any of these deals (disappointing).  In fact, you are hoping you just replace KP with any Wiseman, Collins and Avdija.

That is why I am preaching a three team deal all the time. Trading one "damaged star" for another in Collins or Wiseman/Avdija does not really improve us, unless we think there is absolutely no hope for KP to ever be healthy. I don't think we are there yet.

The idea is basically to turn KP into two lesser players, not just one prospect and a filler. Example with Atlanta: we don't need Bogdanovic as our guard rotation is good and any of those guys is arguably better than Bogi. So we create a three team trade adding additional pieces that sends us a player we actually need. Most likely a center, if Collins is our prize. Neither Collins or that center would be at KP level, but together they cover our two positions of need and form a formidable lineup with our guard/wing rotation. I think there are many possibilities to create such a trade. WCJ, Holmes, Horford are just some of the options that come to mind.

Disclaimer: I don't think Mavs would have any interest in Avdija, he is just too far away and absolutely no guarantee he will actually become something (very) good. Mavs want to be good now.

[vfromlmf]

My problem with John Colllins is the same problem that ATL has with him. What defensive position does he play? His best role on offense is rim-roller who can also knock down a three. He's a force on offense. Defensively, he's challenged. He's not a rim protector but he's been serviceable as a weak side forward next to Capella. He can't guard wings. This just presents a multitude of problems, especially in the playoffs.

The reality is the game has changed dramatically in the last two years. More bigs are shooting 3's than ever and I'd argue this makes KP somewhat less of a true unicorn. Granted there aren't many centers who can easily average 25 pts on good efficiency but with the way teams run pick & role it's arguably more important for your center to anchor your defense.

This brings me to Wiseman. This is a kid who's younger than Doncic and looks to be more of a "traditional center of the future." He's big, very strong on the block and has the potential to become an elite rim protector. And he's super skilled; can knock down a three. But he's clearly not a championship caliber center at this point. He needs time.

Fortunately, the Mavs have time and resources to make it work. The reality is the Mavs are competitive without KP. In fact, they might be better if his defense doesn't dramatically improve. Their playing style is more grit & grind but that style suits your other defense-first starters JRich, DFS, Kleber; as well as key reserves like Powell & WCS. If you can add another solid wing in Wiggins -- and also get a franchise talent in Wiseman -- while remaining competitive, I think now is the time to do it. 

The Mavs can really take two different paths philosophically ... they can add championship caliber vets to Doncic and go for it all now. But if they fall short it could spell trouble. And do you really want to pair Doncic with a 30+ year old former star with an ego? Again talking reality here... 20 year olds don't usually win titles. If the Mavs really want to compete now they need to be thinking about adding some wizened vets like Draymond, Kyle Lowry, Dragic, Horford, Reddick, Chris Paul (who's obviously not available). 

The other option is to pair Doncic with solid vets who will defer to him as the undisputed leader of the team; meanwhile you add young elite talent. I much prefer this path. Dallas may not compete for a title this year but if they build it the right way it could set them up for a much longer run as Doncic nears his peak years.

So, bottom line ... I'd deal KP for Wiseman+Wiggins.

[MAVS-SLO]

I think we should all calm down with Kristaps hate. It's crazy to me that some people & media want to show that a player, who was half a year ago named untouchable in just half a year become almost a buyout player. 

Yes, he is clearly not having a good season, he is clearly have injury concerns but that's the same player which a half a year ago was named untouchable. The same player which was one of the best duos in Nba with Luka, which was 2 best player on our team and player who was traded to Dallas for a longterm duo to Luka. And last season he showed that he wants to be part of Mavericks future. What is one of the most important things to me.

First of all, we should start looking where all media hate to the Mavs began:

1. A lot of media and i would say, also a fans almost expected that we will be a contenders this year. That wasn't realistic. First, beacuse of quality and a second beacuse of experience.

2. Beginning of the season and Luka out of shape. Everbody else were in perfect shape, only Luka & Mavs were out of shape for the media.

3. Luka can't shoot a 3.

4. Injury problems & covid problems for the Mavs. Some other teams games were postponed, the Mavs had to play without 5 players just beacuse of Covid. Media only talk about loses. Yes, they were games were we lost beacuse of us, but most loses were connected to injuries and Covid.

5. Winning streak - media talk about bad 3 point shooting percentage.

6. Dame should start over Luka.

7. KP drama.

That's the atmosphere media created to the Mavs this year. Only negative words, nothing positive and for a young team like ours, that's the atmosphere they are not accustomed and he is shown throught the team confidence.

It's interesting the same media isn't talking about disaster season of Miami, Boston who were higher than Mavs last season, or even average seasons for Bucks and Nuggets. And none of them have even similar health problems like Mavs.

Back to the KP thread. Don't do rush decisions after half of the season in which KP was hurt half of. KP trade to Dallas is longterm project and i'dont think he we will be traded after just few bad games. Rush decisions will only result with bad results.

Even last season we could saw some of KP problems. That problem is beause he is a little bit stock between 5 and 4. Even last year i think he could be better at the 4, we just need a 5 to fit the system. This year this is even more visible beacuse of his fear after a injury. That fear is resulted with bad rebuding. In my opinion Myles Turner is the guy who fixes most of our ''KP'' problems. On the good contract, Dallas native & good guy for that team.

But we need to fix this. Sometimes just few small trades are enought and the future looks completly different. Could compared Philadelphia last & this season. We need to know that most of our assest gone for KP trade. So trading him just to trade him is step back & not upgrading our roster what we want. We should also know that in free agency, players with KP ceiling all extended they're contracts so we should be very patient with decisions.

Also, looking throught the trade rumours, it's just crazy that some people are proposing a trades for a KP with a players with even worse injury problems and worst statistic of worst KP season.

If we want that the Mavs are contenders, we must also look at the Celtics rosters. One of the best 1-2-3 lineups but without good 4-5 positions. So when doing KP trade scenarios have a Celtics big lineup problems in head.

And also we can't forget that 1 thing is statistic in 1 team & other thing is fit in other team.

[HanspardShowerVoice]

Zach Collins has actually turned into a pretty good defender when he's not asked to do what he's not good at ... which is defend  the rim.  Since the Capella has come back from injury and taken over as the Hawks rim defender, Collins has been allowed to do more of what he's best.    Collins 2 man defensive numbers with both Hunter (103 DRtg) and Capella (106 Drtg) are solid.  That's 36 and 100 out of 367 two man lineups that have played 350 minutes together in the NBA this season.  This was also mentioned by Zach Lowe on a recent podcast ... he's gotten better this year.  You can be skeptical and say they've gotten better because he's in a contract year, but they've gotten better.

[ClutchDirk]

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2933...d-like-phi

[dirkfansince1998]

It's interesting the same media isn't talking about disaster season of Miami, Boston who were higher than Mavs last season, or even average seasons for Bucks and Nuggets. And none of them have even similar health problems like Mavs.

Celtics are getting more media coverage than the Mavs. Even after Lukas game winner the narrative wasn´t about the Mavs winning a close game. All about the Celtics losing.

[Omega_Supreme]

I think I would be open to taking on Bertans if I can get Deni and Hachimura 

Bertans is KP lite offensively at half the cost 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ULGy3tgZpqo

[StepBackJay]

So, bottom line ... I'd deal KP for Wiseman+Wiggins.

I would for sure do that deal. Wiggins is actually a pretty good player and Wiseman would be that 2nd core piece. I think GSW considers that deal bc KP fits their window and play style better.

[StepBackJay]

I think I would be open to taking on Bertans if I can get Deni and Hachimura 

Bertans is KP lite offensively at half the cost 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ULGy3tgZpqo

For salary matching I am pretty positive Bertans would be a big part of any KP deal. Bertans would be draining buckets like crazy here.

[cow]

I would for sure do that deal. Wiggins is actually a pretty good player and Wiseman would be that 2nd core piece. I think GSW considers that deal bc KP fits their window and play style better.

Wiggins would join the elite club of Mavs players that we all bitch about and can't wait for their contract to expire (Wes, Barnes, THJ).  I think that Mavs would say no to that deal.  Maybe if they included a future first.

[mavsluvr]

Maybe it's the tail wagging the dog or purely coincidental, but something doesn't feel right with him missing games with lower back tightness after a week long layover.  Did he come back too soon from his most recent knee surgery?  Why would the Mavs allow that in the first place?  His role and blackhole usage in the offense has been strange and some of the off hand comments about how he's being used have also felt off.  And now we get all these reports.  You can write that off as Donnie doing his due diligence and normal operations for any GM, but why is this being reported then and not every other fact finding mission from other GMs leaguewide?

FWIW, Followill and Dameris dropped a podcast yesterday pouring a lot of cold water on the KP situation as a salacious story. They disclaimed having any actual specific knowledge, and were basing the comments mostly on Dameris' experience in the front office. 


Dameris said that front offices keep tabs on what other teams think of their players as a matter of course. He said that when he was with the Mavs, every player not named Dirk was routinely discussed with other teams in terms of value, whether the Mavs had any immediate interest in trading them or not. 

He put particular emphasis on the fact that the "story" was broken by a low-level reporter, and that none of the major NBA news breakers (Woj, Charania, Stein, that level journalist) ran with it. The lower level journalists tend to have lower level contacts among agents and team offices, and they might well be honest when they say they have heard particular players being discussed, but it doesn't necessarily mean anything. Also, the comments reportedly made by other team executives probably wouldn't have been high-level executives, who typically deal with the high-level reporters, and the comments about KP's physical deficiencies could be made by anyone who is watching, and weren't in the nature of privileged info. 

Also said the original report contained a section on Luka's friendship with KP being an obstacle to the Mavs' ability to trade Porzingis. The podders thought that was a giveaway that the reporter doesn't have a clue. First, while Luka and KP get along well, they aren't really personal friends away from work. Secondly, Luka is about winning and is very professional. There is no way he would get in the way of improving the team because a player is a friend of his. Barea was his best friend on the team, and he was okay with the Mavs not keeping him. 

Not saying that KP will be a Mav forever, or that we shouldn't carefully consider the possibilities. But I'm not sure how much can realistically be read into the story, in terms of whether the Mavs are really aggressively shopping KP.

[Mapka]

If KP would be on any other roaster, and being the exact same player in the exact same situation, this board would preach: "give everything but Luka to get him here".

He is still the rare young player who showed not just star potential, but actually played as a two-way-star.

And he showed he can be a plus player without having the ball in his hands.

[StepBackJay]

Wiggins would join the elite club of Mavs players that we all bitch about and can't wait for their contract to expire (Wes, Barnes, THJ).  I think that Mavs would say no to that deal.  Maybe if they included a future first.

Wiseman was the 2nd pick in the draft so that is quite the prize and Wiggins is a good player. His defense has improved so he's another scoring option. Also Wiggins only has 2 more years left on his deal. I am good with any 2 year deal because it means its basically a 1 year commitment. Expiring deals are easy enough to move. You aren't going to get Wiseman and a future first for KP. I think it's basically Wiseman + figuring out the rest whether its filler or Wiggins. I would probably rather have Wiggins and than a bunch of salary filler.

[TXBamanut]

We share Davis Bertans' greatest game ever and dream....but seriously, that's nuts.  Leave Lambchops in Washington....  there is only one player that I want off of Washington if KP is going out, and his name is Beal, and that isn't happening.

I echo what was said....the Mavs have ALWAYS consistently checked their players' value.  I've heard it called a constant ongoing conversation.

This is probably some rival GM like NY who wants to drive a wedge in the Mavs roster so we stink and they get another lottery pick or some other GM who is trying to get KP disgruntled because they hope for a blowup that nets them a bargain.

[MAVS-SLO]

Celtics are getting more media coverage than the Mavs. Even after Lukas game winner the narrative wasn´t about the Mavs winning a close game. All about the Celtics losing.

Yes, but i got a feeling that media hardly wait for Mavs to lose. From first lost against the Suns this season and in every lose they're doing drama. From Luka is unhappy and will request a trade, to Hardaway shooting percentage, to the KP drama. Or Luka isn't a clutch player...

Point is, that media si doing exactly opposite things to the Mavs than a last year. Last year everyone was full optimistic, few pieces away from a contender, star duo... When media is talking to you in that way, team confidence is growing, this season is opposite. Specially for a young team, where all of them are first time in that situation.

Regarding a KP trade, we should be patient. He is not in the best shape now, but he didn't forget how to play basketball in half a year. So give this team a chance. We played 4-5 games with full roster this year, and for a young team like ours there is nothing to hurry.

[ClutchDirk]

https://www.masslive.com/celtics/2021/02...utType=amp

[Mapka]

Wiseman was the 2nd pick in the draft so that is quite the prize and Wiggins is a good player. His defense has improved so he's another scoring option. Also Wiggins only has 2 more years left on his deal. I am good with any 2 year deal because it means its basically a 1 year commitment. Expiring deals are easy enough to move. You aren't going to get Wiseman and a future first for KP. I think it's basically Wiseman + figuring out the rest whether its filler or Wiggins. I would probably rather have Wiggins and than a bunch of salary filler.

Wiseman was the second pick in the trade everyone tried to trade down.
And he might be even more injury prone than KP.

Wiggins made Butler force a trade and then made the wolves give a unprotected first to trade him for overpaid Russell. 

This package sounds better than it is.