2020-2021 ROSTER TALK: Archived

[KillerLeft]

You people have lost your everloving minds.  If that's all that KP can bring, just keep him and take your chances...Bertans, Hatcimura???  Omygosh, no to the way....

You might be right, but to play devil’s advocate, what if:

1) the trade makes the Mavs better immediately, based on how KP is playing this season, so far (I think it would) and 

2) KP’s value keeps decreasing, rather than increasing? I actually think this is very possible.

[jesusshuttlesworth82]

Avdija and Wiz 1st pick unprotected would be intriguing.  Good suggestion.  Not sure the Mavs have the patience for it though.

[cow]

You people have lost your everloving minds.  If that's all that KP can bring, just keep him and take your chances...Bertans, Hatcimura???  Omygosh, no to the way....

He's not playing great, he's on a massive contract and he's shown that he's probably going to miss around 30% of the games you need him for.  I think he'll play better at some point as I can't imagine he's fallen off a cliff but he's certainly a buy low candidate which is why teams are sniffing around him.

Avdija and Wiz 1st pick unprotected would be intriguing.  Good suggestion.  Not sure the Mavs have the patience for it though.

That's putting a lot of faith in the MBT drafting acumen.  

[SleepingHero]

but he's certainly a buy low candidate which is why teams are sniffing around him.

So why are we feeding into that? These teams think they can get KP for pennies on the dollar, and then reap the rewards when he's 100%. Why should the Mavs willingly help these other teams? Because he's been bad on defense? Because he's on a max contract? Because he's been averaging 20/8 on good shooting splits during a rough patch??

If we're trading KP because he's a bad contract, who are we angling for this summer to throw money at that's clearly better than KP, and that we are otherwise unable to throw money at? 

Further, we can ALWAYS sell low. If by this time next year KP is still a shell of himself, then yeah it'd be time to look elsewhere, and the Mavs can then accept a menial deal of whoever wants him. 

Just makes zero sense to throw him in any trade right now unless its for a multi-time all star guy like Beal or KAT.

[cow]

So why are we feeding into that? These teams think they can get KP for pennies on the dollar, and then reap the rewards when he's 100%. Why should the Mavs willingly help these other teams? Because he's been bad on defense? Because he's on a max contract? Because he's been averaging 20/8 on good shooting splits during a rough patch??

If we're trading KP because he's a bad contract, who are we angling for this summer to throw money at that's clearly better than KP, and that we are otherwise unable to throw money at? 

Further, we can ALWAYS sell low. If by this time next year KP is still a shell of himself, then yeah it'd be time to look elsewhere, and the Mavs can then accept a menial deal of whoever wants him. 

Just makes zero sense to throw him in any trade right now unless its for a multi-time all star guy like Beal or KAT.

We are feeding into because we are a discussion board and this "story" is gaining national attention.  We were also discussing this prior to the media catching wind of it  because we've noticed how bad KP has looked.

I'm not advocating that we trade him now.

Who are the MBT angling for? Sounds like John Collins.  Color me skeptical based on the MBT's recent offseason success.

You are assuming KP's value can't go lower which I don't think is accurate.  Injuries happen and he may not return to form.

You aren't getting Beal or KAT for KP at his current value without emptying the cupboard and taking back spoiled goods and even then, that's probably not enough.

I don't blame the Mavs for the KP trade but they took a shortcut to the rebuilding process.  They probably should have gone through the "process" with Luka and tried to hit on another cornerstone prior to dumping assets into another star.  We are badly hamstrung right now if KP doesn't work out.  But since we have a world class medical team, it's time to lean on them and help make decisions about his future with the team.

[KillerLeft]

Further, we can ALWAYS sell low. If by this time next year KP is still a shell of himself, then yeah it'd be time to look elsewhere, and the Mavs can then accept a menial deal of whoever wants him. 

The counterpoint here is a matter of degree. You can always sell low, but selling low isn’t a constant.

None of us know what’s going to happen in the future, but it is certainly possible that this is the HIGHEST KP’s value will ever be, moving forward. You clearly don’t think that way, which is fine, and I don’t need the Mavs to agree with my view - I just hope they’re considering the possibility. Weighing the pros and cons.

---

You are assuming KP's value can't go lower which I don't think is accurate.  Injuries happen and he may not return to form.

Absolutely. 

I would be done with it, done with him and done with the risk if it were up to me. Luka is still young enough to almost completely start over. I am not impatient, and the absolute worst thing I can imagine is trying to piece a team around a broken Frankenstein‘s monster at center just to win 50 games X amount of times and never really contend. Barf.

[cow]

Absolutely. 

I would be done with it, done with him and done with the risk if it were up to me. Luka is still young enough to almost completely start over. I am not impatient, and the absolute worst thing I can imagine is trying to piece a team around a broken Frankenstein‘s monster at center just to win 50 games X amount of times and never really contend. Barf.

And as I've said repeatedly, while I'm leaning much more towards this sentiment, I don't think the MBT are.  For me, even if KP gets back to peak form, I just have no faith in his availability.

[Kammrath]

@"SleepingHero" just wanted to say I appreciated your tea leaves reading effort, even if I don't necessarily buy it 100% at this point. I think you are asking the right questions though, trying to puzzle through where this originated and why. 

Assuming the reporter is being honest and accurate, then it leaves these two options:

1) Rival execs are speaking to poison the well and being at least partially dishonest in the process.

2) Rival execs are just passing along accurate information (knowing it doesn't hurt them to do so) and the Mavs are flat out lying in order to keep a possible diva-situation with KP from blowing up in their faces.

It seems your position is #1...but I think #2 is also very possible.

[KillerLeft]

Remember when the Mavs (allegedly) could’ve traded Beaubois for a lottery pick?

[Kammrath]

Beaubois

[Omega_Supreme]

This is the key here. And its very telling given the whole news cycle yesterday about how the Mavs are "gauging" KPs trade value, which is vague in and of itself. 

https://www.dallasnews.com/sports/maveri...utType=amp&__twitter_impression=true

In Brad Townsend's latest update on the KP situation he says as follows: 

"The reality is that trading Porzingis any time in the near future, but especially now, would be a monumental mistake — an assessment that was seconded by several key members of the organization I spoke to Tuesday.
I was told that Mavericks president and general manager Donnie Nelson has pat answer for any fellow GMs who even consider engaging Dallas in trade talks.

“Draw a line under Luka Doncic and Porzingis as not available, then another line under several players that would require an over-the-top offer to acquire.”


Which has always been the position of the Mavs FO since acquiring KP. So why all the rumors? Well Brad goes on to say:

"I was emphatically told that the Mavericks have never initiated discussion with any franchise regarding a trade of Porzingis, but that on one occasion a team did inquire about Porzingis.

'The answer was a quick no,' the source said."

Ian Bagley was quick to tweet out yesterday that it was the Mavs that called the Warriors and had a quick chat. But the Warriors were an odd fit to begin with, unless the Mavs fell in love with Wiggins, and its hard to imagine that GSW would part ways with Draymond or Klay given how core they are. 

Now the Wizards come out and say "they are monitoring the KP situation"...? Well if the Mavs emphatically say KP is untouchable, what situation could they be talking about? Mavs aren't shopping him so....

Coming from the original BR story yesterday, there were several quotes from unnamed executives that ripped into KP, and made it seem like the Mavs had buyers remorse. It was interesting that the story specifically mentioned "one western conference executive", and "one eastern conference executive" when quoting. 

Could it be possible that it was actually the GMs for the Warriors and Wizards being quoted for that story?? But why would they tear down KP if they are supposedly interested in trading for him?

Well 1. It creates a divide in the locker room, and it hits KP right where it hurts. Potentially this divide could cause KP to want out and force a trade. Because now not only is KP the clear second fiddle behind Luka (something I feel he doesn't inherently like given his alpha nature), but the team that has said "we want him and Luka here for the next 20 years" are shopping him?? That's a betrayal any way you cut it, and it's hard if you're in KP's shoes to not want a fresh start where you can get out of Luka's shadow right? Well if KP were to force a trade, you get what you want, AND further devalue him. 

It's such a conniving move, but incredibly smart, to anonymously provide quotes for a rumor mill story about a team who's 2nd star is having a rough patch. And then frame it in such a way to make it seem like the Mavs want out of his deal. 

You know what I think? I think the Mavs are not trading KP for anything short of a multi-time all-star thats under contract. Thats the bare minimum they're looking for. And I think that there are several teams that want KP but are trying to devalue him through roundabout methods. 

I could be 1000% wrong, and that the Mavs were actually shopping him. But Mark/Donnie/Rick have never come out so bluntly and said "we're not interested in trading XXX" and then go trade him 3 weeks later. Even when DSJ was having his debacle, the Mavs never came out and said "No were not shopping him". They just said "we love DSJ and love to have him apart of our team". Similar statements, but very different meanings. 

Just my read of the tea leaves. But obviously people love to make big trades so I doubt this is going to stop the KP rumor mill.

I think that there is definitely smoke here....The entire back injury story just does not sound legit to me as it came out of nowhere. 

Assuming that you are correct tomorrow will mark almost 2 weeks since he has played and if he misses the next two games and possible 3 weeks if he misses the next 4.

[SleepingHero]

@SleepingHero just wanted to say I appreciated your tea leaves reading effort, even if I don't necessarily buy it 100% at this point. I think you are asking the right questions though, trying to puzzle through where this originated and why. 

Thanks for the kind thoughts.

Assuming the reporter is being honest and accurate, then it leaves these two options:

1) Rival execs are speaking to poison the well and being at least partially dishonest in the process.

2) Rival execs are just passing along accurate information (knowing it doesn't hurt them to do so) and the Mavs are flat out lying in order to keep a possible diva-situation with KP from blowing up in their faces.

It seems your position is #1...but I think #2 is also very possible.

I think there is a third option as well, somewhere in between option 1 and 2. Not groundbreaking I know but it's also extremely possible that the reporter is stretching the truth to make a story AND the Mavs are deflecting for their best interests. 

Breaking out your favorite scale 

Option 1--------------------X----------------------------------------------Option 2

I'm around here. I do think the Mavs are being genuine in how they feel about KP. I also think Donnie was calling around doing due diligence and gauging KP's value just in case (and he wouldn't be doing his job correctly if he didn't do that). I do think those rival execs leaked that to create interest. I do think rival execs are trying to sow division in an attempt to get KP. I do think Donnie is pressing the panic button to prevent that. 

Because of all of that, unless its a slam dunk home run trade, I don't think the Mavs are going to be looking at trading KP at all until this summer at the earliest. I could be very wrong, but the optics would be quite bad given how emphatic they've been about how untouchable he's been. And that's before we get "LOL Knicks won the trade" and "Mavs are terrible asset managers" etc. 

Finally, like I said in the KP thread, the dude has had zero conditioning. He's coming off of a surgery. We gotta cut him some slack. I understand that KP's health has and it seems always will be the sticking point but even in his rough patch he's been producing quite well at least on 1 side of the court. And I can understand the concern about building around a guy with health problems and why I'm not married to the idea of KP being an Mav for life. But to trade him right now? For pennies on the dollar? Ludicrous. It's just too early. It'd be like leaving in the middle of a date because she's been in the bathroom a bit too long. Sure she could've ditched. She could also be doing cocaine as far as we know. Lets give it a bit before we give up.

[SleepingHero]

We are feeding into because we are a discussion board and this "story" is gaining national attention.  We were also discussing this prior to the media catching wind of it  because we've noticed how bad KP has looked.

I'm not advocating that we trade him now.

 
Touchè.

Who are the MBT angling for? Sounds like John Collins.  Color me skeptical based on the MBT's recent offseason success.

You are assuming KP's value can't go lower which I don't think is accurate.  Injuries happen and he may not return to form.

I think the Mavs can go after John Collins without needing to get off KP's money. THJ+JRich might be the collateral in that case. But if we could hypothetically trade THJ+Jrich for Collins right now we'd do that 10 times out 10. We could always trade KP for guard depth later on if needed at that point. 

And also you're right. KP could get injured yet again next game and never look the same. I hope that never happens but I'm not going to plan around a hypothetical that we cannot predict accurately at all. Especially if that means I have to trade away KP based on that hypothetical. 

You aren't getting Beal or KAT for KP at his current value without emptying the cupboard and taking back spoiled goods and even then, that's probably not enough.

I know after the Harden trade we think Beal is going to cost an arm and a leg, but Beal hasn't been close to Harden's level at any point in their careers so far. I guess what I'm trying to say is that perhaps those dudes aren't as impossible to get as it seems, especially with a KP centered package. 

Put it this way, if you told me in January of 2019 that the Mavs would be able to turn DSJ+Wes+DAJ into Kristaps+THJ, I'd have told you that you're smoking the good stuff and that's nowhere near enough value.

[cow]

Finally, like I said in the KP thread, the dude has had zero conditioning. He's coming off of a surgery. We gotta cut him some slack. I understand that KP's health has and it seems always will be the sticking point but even in his rough patch he's been producing quite well at least on 1 side of the court. And I can understand the concern about building around a guy with health problems and why I'm not married to the idea of KP being an Mav for life. But to trade him right now? For pennies on the dollar? Ludicrous. It's just too early. It'd be like leaving in the middle of a date because she's been in the bathroom a bit too long. Sure could've ditched. She could also be doing cocaine as far as we know. Lets give it a bit before we give up.

Maybe it's the tail wagging the dog or purely coincidental, but something doesn't feel right with him missing games with lower back tightness after a week long layover.  Did he come back too soon from his most recent knee surgery?  Why would the Mavs allow that in the first place?  His role and blackhole usage in the offense has been strange and some of the off hand comments about how he's being used have also felt off.  And now we get all these reports.  You can write that off as Donnie doing his due diligence and normal operations for any GM, but why is this being reported then and not every other fact finding mission from other GMs leaguewide?

And also you're right. KP could get injured yet again next game and never look the same. I hope that never happens but I'm not going to plan around a hypothetical that we cannot predict accurately at all. Especially if that means I have to trade away KP based on that hypothetical. 

Him being oft injured and someone you can't count on isn't a hypothetical at this point.  That wouldn't be so bad if he wasn't on a max contract, but here we are.  I'm not in the camp that thinks he's fallen off a cliff but I'm also not a fan of how he's being used or how he's playing right now.  That might be a conversation for a different time but between injury, salary and fit, I'm off the hype train.

 Put it this way, if you told me in January of 2019 that the Mavs would be able to turn DSJ+Wes+DAJ into Kristaps+THJ, I'd have told you that you're smoking the good stuff and that's nowhere near enough value.

#9 Pick (DSJ who still looked like a starting caliber NBA Player) + 2 FRPs + salary matching + the Mavs had to take on 3YRs of THJ's contract which was considered one of the worst contracts in the league.  New York would have had to given up at least a FRP to get off of THJ's contract based on his time there.  Let's not pretend that KP was inexpensive to acquire and he was traded before the latest craze of gong all out to land another star.  Jrue Holiday went for 3 FRPs, Pick Swaps and a quality player in Bledsoe.  Our FRPs are probably more attractive than the Bucks, but don't kid yourself, if Beal goes, he's going to cost a ton. Hell, Robert Covington went for 2x FRPs.

[Omega_Supreme]

My best work yet 

Dallas 
Al Horford
James Wiseman 
Timberwolves 1st 2021
Golden St. 1st 2021 (OKC removes Protections)

Golden St. 
Kristaps Porzingis 
George Hill
Wes Iwundu 

OKC
Willie Cauley-Stein
Jordan Pool
Andrew Wiggins 

OKC gets a young piece to pair with SGA for the future as Wiggins is just 25 with the same years left as Horford. OKC is essentially trading Horford for a younger long term piece.

[cow]

My best work yet 

Dallas 
Al Horford
James Wiseman 
Timberwolves 1st 2021
Golden St. 1st 2021 (OKC removes Protections)

Golden St. 
Kristaps Porzingis 
George Hill
Wes Iwundu 

OKC
Willie Cauley-Stein
Jordan Pool
Andrew Wiggins 

OKC gets a young piece to pair with SGA for the future as Wiggins is just 25 with the same years left as Horford. OKC is essentially trading Horford for a younger long term piece.

This is supposed to be a deep draft.  GSW would need to pay something to get off of Wiggins and something to obtain KP.  That doesn't seem unfair but I'm guessing they'd so no.  If Minny's pick conveys to GSW this year, GSW is ready for the post Steph/Klay/Draymond era with Wiseman and that pick.  

Likewise, I think OKC says no.  Wiggins to me has negative value.  Horford probably has negative value too but Presti can probably wizard his way into turning that into draft capital further down the road.

[Omega_Supreme]

This is supposed to be a deep draft.  GSW would need to pay something to get off of Wiggins and something to obtain KP.  That doesn't seem unfair but I'm guessing they'd so no.  If Minny's pick conveys to GSW this year, GSW is ready for the post Steph/Klay/Draymond era with Wiseman and that pick.  

Likewise, I think OKC says no.  Wiggins to me has negative value.  Horford probably has negative value too but Presti can probably wizard his way into turning that into draft capital further down the road.

KP
Draymond Green
Kelley Oubre
Klay Thompson
Steph Curry

They could essentially play 5 out, KP would be perfect in their system. Again I know its a long shot I am just saying KP would be intriguing to them. Draymond is the perfect PF to have next to KP with his ball movement abilities. Their offense would be terrifying with a Stretch 5. 

Golden state has a 5 year window to maximize Steph's prime

[jesusshuttlesworth82]

That's way too much for GS to give up.

Wiggins and Wiseman is probably more like it.  Maybe the lower 1st round pick like you suggested.  No way they add in the Twolves pick if they're including Wiseman.

[omahen]

Wiggins and Wiseman is probably more like it.  Maybe the lower 1st round pick like you suggested.  No way they add in the Twolves pick if they're including Wiseman.

And it is actually not that bad of an offer, depending how you see KP and Wiseman. Wiggins has a very solid season, improved a lot defensively. However it has to be noted for those concerned about KP health. Wiseman missed basically whole last season and already some games this one.

[ItsGoTime]

I am thinking Turner/Collins would be a very good frontcourt fit. Both can shoot it. Turner is a rim protector on defense, Collins PnR guy on offense. Both are not a total liability on perimeter defense. Unfortunately, I don't really see it happen.

THIS is boner alert! I give KP and Maxi + for that package!