(12-10-2020, 11:33 PM)DanSchwartzman Wrote: [ -> ]Unfortunately, it doesn't work like that. Your FA can't be your 12th guy. You actually have to account for 13 spots before signing the FA with whatever is left. So, under your assumptions, you have to add another $0.9 in slot 13 and another in slot 1 and then sign GA with what is left.
I´m not sure what the minimum for a 2nd round rookie/caphold was last year. I believe last year it was 0.65 or something. Double that and it adds up to 1.3 and you basically land right on 112.4. Those are all just rounded numbers. I´m pretty sure, if you nail it down to the last dollar it will work out.
If not, Brunson´s contract is non-guaranteed and that easily makes up the difference. We´ll have to give up something to get rid of Powell anyway, and a Brunson extension seems unlikely. Powell + Brunson+ (depending on how good/bad Powell looks) some sort of pick. That´s probably the laid out Giannis plan. I´m sure they have many other plans mapped out, but the Giannis one you can work out pretty easily.
As far as JRich opting in to help land Giannis and trusting the MBT to follow through with a big extension the next year...
Obviously if he plays well it’s highly unlikely...but if there was ever a group to trust to take care of you it would be the guys that have;
- Gotten Dirk to take a pay cut to chase stars and then taken care of him with max money on the back end after they couldn’t land anyone
- Upped the salary of Wes after VAJ got locked in his house
- Handed out guaranteed $$$ to JJ as a small token of appreciation
This FO and Cuban in particular have shown they take care of their players...even after their playing careers are over and they’re homeless and addicted.
I wouldn’t put it past the MBT to make it work if they can finally get a commitment from a superstar FA after all these years.
(12-11-2020, 12:20 AM)MaxiThreeba Wrote: [ -> ]As far as JRich opting in to help land Giannis and trusting the MBT to follow through with a big extension the next year...
Obviously if he plays well it’s highly unlikely...but if there was ever a group to trust to take care of you it would be the guys that have;
- Gotten Dirk to take a pay cut to chase stars and then taken care of him with max money on the back end after they couldn’t land anyone
- Upped the salary of Wes after VAJ got locked in his house
- Handed out guaranteed $$$ to JJ as a small token of appreciation
This FO and Cuban in particular have shown they take care of their players...even after their playing careers are over and they’re homeless and addicted.
I wouldn’t put it past the MBT to make it work if they can finally get a commitment from a superstar FA after all these years.
We had this discussion just a few weeks ago because Bill Simmons mentioned that the Mavs and Celtics are the two teams that are absoutely ruthless when it comes to trading their own players.
For any of the mentioned good examples we have an equally bad one.
- I don´t think Wes or DAJ were happy when Cuban traded them.
- The Barnes situation looked really bad but I don´t think the Mavs are to blame for the entire drama because they informed him prior to the game that a trade was a possibility.
- Do you think that Tyson Chandler was happy when the Mavs dumped him because they wanted to chase bigger fishes? It happened twice. In 2011 and 2015.
- Do you think Wright is happy about the way his Mavs career ended?
- Not to mention the PG situation in the post championship years. Rondo, Collison or even DSJr
- Don´t forget Noel and the Rich Paul beef. Mavs aren´t doing any business with him and the entire LBJ bubble.
I think the Mavs aren´t any better or worse when it comes to the way they treat and interact with players. Some guys are part of the Mavs family after one or two seaons. Others spend years in Dallas but never belong.
^
I wonder what DFS thinks about his $4M contract after seeing DP and Kleber get more then twice what he got.
(12-11-2020, 01:56 AM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]^
I wonder what DFS thinks about his $4M contract after seeing DP and Kleber get more then twice what he got.
He thinks:
Wow, I went undrafted and now I got 15 Mios in my pocket already and my next contract will be even better.
![[Image: e6wnqi5mye461.jpg]](https://i.redd.it/e6wnqi5mye461.jpg)
Thats a like from George Hill.
"Harden of the East"
"needs to learn basketball"
(12-10-2020, 10:10 PM)DrMav Wrote: [ -> ]How likely is it that JRich opts in though unless he has a bad year?
I don’t see it happening. There will be cap space available so he will likely stand to get a raise if he plays well. It would take a lot of trust to opt in after just one season with a team expecting them to pay you the next year, unless he does an ‘opt in and extend’.
Maybe if he knew Giannis was coming and he would have a chance to get rings and $ just by waiting a year, but still, idk.
I think it's pure fantasy to think JRich would say "yeah sure I'm going to forego years of guaranteed money and let myself be underpaid for another year to get Giannis," especially when there are other paths to getting enough space even with his caphold. The only real cases of this happening are the Lebron Heat with 3 superstars, and Dirk, who is Dirk. JRich isn't going to risk his own career after 1 year with the Mavs. That's why I think any Giannis scenarios need to work with the assumption of JRich's cap hold instead of praying he has a good year but also hates money.
(12-11-2020, 12:02 AM)Mavs2019 Wrote: [ -> ]I´m not sure what the minimum for a 2nd round rookie/caphold was last year. I believe last year it was 0.65 or something. Double that and it adds up to 1.3 and you basically land right on 112.4. Those are all just rounded numbers. I´m pretty sure, if you nail it down to the last dollar it will work out.
If not, Brunson´s contract is non-guaranteed and that easily makes up the difference. We´ll have to give up something to get rid of Powell anyway, and a Brunson extension seems unlikely. Powell + Brunson+ (depending on how good/bad Powell looks) some sort of pick. That´s probably the laid out Giannis plan. I´m sure they have many other plans mapped out, but the Giannis one you can work out pretty easily.
It appeared to me your original point was that we planned to be exactly on the money and are there now by trading Powell (based on your chart). That is not correct. It is easy enough to go to Spotrac or other sources and see what they are using for an empty roster spot in 21 ($916,276). So, KP, JRich (opt-in), Luka, Maxi, DFS, Burke, Green, Brunson, Terry, Iwundu and 3 empty slots to get to 13 comes to $80.3mm. The room is $32.1 and the needed room is $33.7.
If you are now trying to say it is easy enough to get the $1.7 needed, you are right, but not by dumping just Brunson. His $1.8mm would have to be replaced by a minimum slot, so you only save a little under $900k. You need to lose someone making north of $2.6mm to get there (so Powell and Green?). Even if you remove JRich at $11.6 and add back Powell at $11.1, dumping Brunson doesn't quite get there.
I think you are trying to create precision where none exists. The Bobby Marks and John Hollinger's of the world talk in terms of Dallas being able to "get to" max space. They aren't quite there currently.
(12-11-2020, 03:50 AM)Branduil Wrote: [ -> ]I think it's pure fantasy to think JRich would say "yeah sure I'm going to forego years of guaranteed money and let myself be underpaid for another year to get Giannis," especially when there are other paths to getting enough space even with his caphold. The only real cases of this happening are the Lebron Heat with 3 superstars, and Dirk, who is Dirk. JRich isn't going to risk his own career after 1 year with the Mavs. That's why I think any Giannis scenarios need to work with the assumption of JRich's cap hold instead of praying he has a good year but also hates money.
There is a way around him having to "forgo years of guaranteed money". So, that really isn't the question. The question is whether a new deal starting with a 20% raise is good enough. After opting-in (and in the new NBA year), Richardson can get a 4/$60 extension starting at about $14mm. If his market next summer is $18mm to start, then this doesn't happen. But if he's going to pull in $14-$15mm anyway, then there is a path to keeping him at his smaller opt-in number.
IF that were to happen, the loss of talent to create room for GA is Boban, WCS, Johnson, THJ, Powell (presumably) and Josh Green (or similar). The remaining talent is:
Bigs: KP/GA/Maxi
Wings: DFS/JRich/Iwundu/Bey
Ball Handlers: Luka/Brunson/Terry/Burke
Add in the Room MLE and minimums as needed.
(12-11-2020, 01:00 AM)dirkfansince1998 Wrote: [ -> ]I think the Mavs aren´t any better or worse when it comes to the way they treat and interact with players.
That list just makes me crazy, but I'll refrain this time.
I don't think you can just cite all good and bad examples for teams and then say all teams are the same. Teams aren't all the same. I'm not saying this because I'm a Mavs fan, I'm saying this because I follow the NBA and also because I go to work. I believe that team culture is a thing based on following the NBA, reading news about what's going on with teams. etc. and also because I've worked at several companies (too many) and work culture is a thing. Some places have been much, much better than others, which makes sense because when you go to work (for an NBA team or anyone else) you're working with and for people (I feel silly saying obvious things that we all already know), and people vary greatly in their talents, abilities and how easy they are to get along with. People also very greatly with regard to whether they care about others, how they treat others, whether they're completely motivated by selfishnesss or not, whether they're honest, kind, considerate or not, whether they're competent or not.
TLDR, or tired head over this topic version: Work culture is actually a real thing and actually matters. Not all work places are the same, not by a long shot.
(12-11-2020, 01:00 AM)dirkfansince1998 Wrote: [ -> ]We had this discussion just a few weeks ago because Bill Simmons mentioned that the Mavs and Celtics are the two teams that are absoutely ruthless when it comes to trading their own players.
For any of the mentioned good examples we have an equally bad one.
- I don´t think Wes or DAJ were happy when Cuban traded them.
- The Barnes situation looked really bad but I don´t think the Mavs are to blame for the entire drama because they informed him prior to the game that a trade was a possibility.
- Do you think that Tyson Chandler was happy when the Mavs dumped him because they wanted to chase bigger fishes? It happened twice. In 2011 and 2015.
- Do you think Wright is happy about the way his Mavs career ended?
- Not to mention the PG situation in the post championship years. Rondo, Collison or even DSJr
- Don´t forget Noel and the Rich Paul beef. Mavs aren´t doing any business with him and the entire LBJ bubble.
I think the Mavs aren´t any better or worse when it comes to the way they treat and interact with players. Some guys are part of the Mavs family after one or two seaons. Others spend years in Dallas but never belong.
1. I don't think Luka was happy with DAJ shoving him so he can stat pad and Matthews who refused to pass Luka the ball...most fans celebrated and were very thankful those 2 players/contracts got dumped...I would dump those 2 players 10/10 times to see if a Unicorn can still play and be healthy...
2. Mavs didn't dump Ty...they offered him 20 mil for a year...he walked amd has said in interviews he made a mistake not staying in Dallas...
3. Most Fans wanted Wright gone...
4. Rondo who put his ego before the team in a playoff game...also DSJ and his back injury didn't want to play second fiddle to a future MVP candidate...he got flipped for a Unicorn
..
5. The same Noel who talked himself out of a good payday and is getting scraps these days instead...
(12-11-2020, 10:20 AM)fifteenth Wrote: [ -> ]That list just makes me crazy, but I'll refrain this time.
I don't think you can just cite all good and bad examples for teams and then say all teams are the same. Teams aren't all the same. I'm not saying this because I'm a Mavs fan, I'm saying this because I follow the NBA and also because I go to work. I believe that team culture is a thing based on following the NBA, reading news about what's going on with teams. etc. and also because I've worked at several companies (too many) and work culture is a thing. Some places have been much, much better than others, which makes sense because when you go to work (for an NBA team or anyone else) you're working with and for people (I feel silly saying obvious things that we all already know), and people vary greatly in their talents, abilities and how easy they are to get along with. People also very greatly with regard to whether they care about others, how they treat others, whether they're completely motivated by selfishnesss or not, whether they're honest, kind, considerate or not, whether they're competent or not.
TLDR, or tired head over this topic version: Work culture is actually a real thing and actually matters. Not all work places are the same, not by a long shot.
I agree but I also don´t see any evidence that would put the Mavs at the top. We are not the Knicks and right now the chemistry is pretty good. Doesn´t change the fact that the Mavs also had some bad moments. There is no way to deny that in the pre Luka era the Mavs basically had a completly new roster every single year. A lot of one year deals and trades. Not to mention that the Mavs had some beef with the two most influential factions in the NBA media landscape. Feels like every single member of the late 00s Celtics team is working for ESPN or similar channels. Most of them like KG or Perkins don´t waste any opportunity to bash RC and the Mavs. Same for the Rich Paul/LBJ bubble. They aren´t doing any business with the Mavs.
Luka arriving as the potential new face of the NBA is slowly starting to change the narrative but it takes time.
(12-11-2020, 10:40 AM)ClutchDirk Wrote: [ -> ]1. I don't think Luka was happy with DAJ shoving him so he can stat pad and Matthews who refused to pass Luka the ball...most fans celebrated and were very thankful those 2 players/contracts got dumped...I would dump those 2 players 10/10 times to see if a Unicorn can still play and be healthy...
2. Mavs didn't dump Ty...they offered him 20 mil for a year...he walked amd has said in interviews he made a mistake not staying in Dallas...
3. Most Fans wanted Wright gone...
4. Rondo who put his ego before the team in a playoff game...also DSJ and his back injury didn't want to play second fiddle to a future MVP candidate...he got flipped for a Unicorn
..
5. The same Noel who talked himself out of a good payday and is getting scraps these days instead...
Don´t disagree but this is not about what is best for the Mavs. For Mavs fans all of those moves (except for not resigning Chandler) made sense. Still doesn´t change the fact that most vets aren´t happy when they end up on a tanking team or that a guy like Wright expected a bigger role.
Yes Rondo was a douchebag and Noel did not deserve a bigger contract. The Mavs made the right decisions. Problem is that even the right decision sometimes leads to negative consequences.
(12-11-2020, 10:40 AM)ClutchDirk Wrote: [ -> ]1. I don't think Luka was happy with DAJ shoving him so he can stat pad and Matthews who refused to pass Luka the ball...most fans celebrated and were very thankful those 2 players/contracts got dumped...I would dump those 2 players 10/10 times to see if a Unicorn can still play and be healthy...
2. Mavs didn't dump Ty...they offered him 20 mil for a year...he walked amd has said in interviews he made a mistake not staying in Dallas...
3. Most Fans wanted Wright gone...
4. Rondo who put his ego before the team in a playoff game...also DSJ and his back injury didn't want to play second fiddle to a future MVP candidate...he got flipped for a Unicorn
..
5. The same Noel who talked himself out of a good payday and is getting scraps these days instead...
Not trying to prolong the beating of this dead horse, but the (off) topic isn't whether the fans feel like the Mavs did these guys wrong, it's whether other NBA players feel the Mavs did these guys wrong, and their perception of the organization with regards to whether it is a good place to work or a bad one.
(12-11-2020, 11:05 AM)embellisher Wrote: [ -> ]Not trying to prolong the beating of this dead horse, but the (off) topic isn't whether the fans feel like the Mavs did these guys wrong, it's whether other NBA players feel the Mavs did these guys wrong, and their perception of the organization with regards to whether it is a good place to work or a bad one.
Yes, the discussion is about how NBA players perceive the Mavs, but listing all these past events with no regard for the reality of each situation doesn't tell the whole story. Reality does in fact impact perception. And, as you guys are saying, things that aren't real impact perception. It's both. And any time these lists are indescriminantly thrown out I'm compelled to bring some reality to the situation.
These players aren't idiots. Not all of them saw Rondo quit on the Mavs and then blamed the Mavs. Not all of them saw Noel turn down a lucrative offer and then eat a hot dog during the game and blame the Mavs. Not all of them saw Barnes get traded and ignored the good things that Barnes got out of the Mavs organization, that they kept him in the loop during the trade talks, and that he's spoken well of the organization since then. Not all the players actually like the Rich Paul/LeBron way of doing business. Many players didn't like how the Lakers and Clippers acted during the bubble.
If we want to have this conversation about perception, how about a deeper one.
Nobody wants to talk about how the Mavs could have gotten a ransom for Dirk and speed up a needed rebuild...but instead tried to stay competitive as long as possible...
How many average players looked like great players playing for Carlisle who got paid when they became a FA...B Wright, Chandler, Barea as examples...
Summer League GOAT Jenkins was getting cut and Carlisle got him another opportunity...
This year they are giving Lee a chance to prove he can play so he can keep playing probably elsewhere...
Barea getting a final thank you for his time with the team...
An owner who only cares about winning and being there for his players...stopping what you are doing because you seen a social media post about a player on the streets who has mental issues...who takes fines when needed to stand up for his players and then gives a matching donation to charity...gives his private plane full of supplies to Barea so he can help his people where he grew up and bring his Family to safety...when the lockdown was announced he said all workers would be paid while others were cutting and laying staff...
Then you also have to consider how other teams act...Morey had everyone available for a Star...Ainge watched IT play with a bad injury trying to help win a championship...Ainge dumped him and was called out for it by many fans and relatives to players...look at how the Knicks treated Carmelo and KP...
But instead the team who set the bar on how to treat players before, during, and after games, world class research in sports science who always have the best training staff and facilities...
But if they think DAJ who was offered everything possible only to back out at the last minute was dumped by them several years later or Rondo was done wrong when the Coach kicked him off the team and Management backed him was that bad then I dont know what to say...
If Rondo had quit on LeBron he would have never played another NBA minute and that team would be applauded for dumping Rondo...
(12-11-2020, 02:52 AM)Mapka Wrote: [ -> ]He thinks:
Wow, I went undrafted and now I got 15 Mios in my pocket already and my next contract will be even better.
Oh, you asked him, cool.
Maybe he thinks this, and I'd go as far as probably. Also, maybe he has a touch of remorse over how his negotiation with the FO went as opposed to how it went for Kleber and Powell. DFS has worked just as hard as either of those two. He's been rewarded for that hard work as a starter who helps to guard some of the better players in this league.
He hasn't been rewarded monetarily like Kleber and Powell have for the same hard work and results. Even if you argue that he's not worth as much as them, I can't believe that he's worth half as much. I wonder if he believes he's worth half as much.
It's funny that DFS98 only listed the negative things to reign it back in about how great this team and FO is to their players and he gets bombarded with all these retorts. I mean, the thought IS out there seeing how Simmons lumped them in with the Celtics as being a ruthless FO. How widespread that thought is is debatable, but we'll pretty much never know the reality.
(12-11-2020, 12:58 PM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]It's funny that DFS98 only listed the negative things to reign it back in about how great this team and FO is to their players and he gets bombarded with all these retorts.
LOL. Retorts. Let's see, I typed wild unbalanced "retorts" like:
Quote:-I don't think you can just cite all good and bad examples for teams and then say all teams are the same. Teams aren't all the same.
-Reality does in fact impact perception. And, as you guys are saying, things that aren't real impact perception. It's both.
-If we want to have this conversation about perception, how about a deeper one.
I don't think listing all the negatives with no regard for reality "reigns it back in" any more than folks married to their political parties "reign things back in" by talking to each other in absolutes.
(12-11-2020, 12:58 PM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]Oh, you asked him, cool.
Maybe he thinks this, and I'd go as far as probably. Also, maybe he has a touch of remorse over how his negotiation with the FO went as opposed to how it went for Kleber and Powell. DFS has worked just as hard as either of those two. He's been rewarded for that hard work as a starter who helps to guard some of the better players in this league.
He hasn't been rewarded monetarily like Kleber and Powell have for the same hard work and results. Even if you argue that he's not worth as much as them, I can't believe that he's worth half as much. I wonder if he believes he's worth half as much.
It's funny that DFS98 only listed the negative things to reign it back in about how great this team and FO is to their players and he gets bombarded with all these retorts. I mean, the thought IS out there seeing how Simmons lumped them in with the Celtics as being a ruthless FO. How widespread that thought is is debatable, but we'll pretty much never know the reality.
In both my posts I bombarded the perception others including players have about the Mavs not DFS98 if I wasnt clear enough...guess I should have said more than just using the 1 LeBron scenario...my bad...
I have been a professional bus driver, when it comes to running over the MBT, but if there is one thing that you can´t accuse them of it´s not being player friendly. I´d argue it´s the opposite.
1. They have served as a retirement home for washed-up NBA players for the last decade.
I´d guess 5% of the retired NBA players do it with us. Can probably add JJB and Courtney Lee to the list. Then we have Amare, Deron, Charlie V, Devin Harris and so on.
2. Matthews and DAJ. Please, those two stole money from Cuban.
The players around the league are mad that we traded them? More likely they are mad, we don´t hand out idiotic contracts to childish has-beens and broken down fakers anymore. DAJ, of all people, feeling mis-treated after the whole first go around. Wow.
3. Barnes. He wanted to stay in Dallas, but Dallas didn´t want him to stay. That´s just daily NBA business.
Would it have been more enjoyable for him to miss the rest of the season with the ankle flu as the Mavs tried to tank for a top pick? The fact that he opted to re-sign in Sacramento also says that we traded him to a preferred destination. So maybe the timing could have been handled better (mid-game), but here is the thing. The Mavs rarely leak stuff, so it either came from the agent to make the Mavs look bad or the Kings, because they wanted to announce their top acquisition asap. On paper they easily got the best player in the deal.
4. DFS. Oh sure he´d like to have a better contract now, but has a player ever asked to give money back, if he didn´t live up to his deal? The Mavs gave him his NBA break and featured him heavily as a starter, so that he has grown his status to the next Covington level. When his current contract is up, he´ll turn that into a $40-50M payday. Most likely and hopefully with the Mavs.
So yeah the examples given are bad imho.