After taking the weekend to reflect, I'm more optimistic about this trade than I felt initially. Don't get me wrong, the Mavs sold about as low as they could on KP. But the likelihood of KP ever rebuilding his trade value got bleaker and bleaker in each successive season. I was about as big of a KP defender on the board, but even I have to concede that he could not stay healthy no matter what he did. One errant fall puts him out for 10+ games. Can't build a contender with that.
Couple that with his history, frame, and position, it must've scared opposing GM's to death. Rightfully so.
BUT looking at the bright side, the two players the Mavs received should ideally fix the bench production. The Mavs bench rank bottom 10 in point's scored. Given that JB is a starter and THJ is out, I can see why the Mavs prioritized filling out the bench. Each guy also should have clear defined roles without disrupting any body else which I think is a huge plus. Brunson remains a starter. Frank/Green are asked to reduce their usage and get back to doing what they do best.
The way I see it, Dinwiddie comes in for Brunson at 6 mins in the first, plays with Luka, then Brunson starts the 2nd with Dinwiddie until Luka comes back. That way there are always 2 creators/slashers on the court at all times. Lets face it, even a hobbled Dinwiddie SHOULD be better than having Burke/Frank out there for extended minutes. Bertans can hopefully take some of Maxi's minutes and give us good
reliable shooting.
I found an incredible video on Bertans, breaking down his game before he signed his massive contract. It's taken from perspective of a Suns fan (prior to getting CP3 and their bubble run), so ignore that. But seeing what made Bertans succeed initially, makes me hopeful that there's a good chance he'll recoup much of his impact playing next to Luka.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dPvTczklpL0
In any case. I wish the best for KP. He had a tumultuous time with the Mavs and to be honest it really was best for both to move on. Now time to build around Luka properly. If Luka keeps up is 50ppg pace then it shouldn't be too hard
(02-14-2022, 11:30 AM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]I for sure go overboard with negativity when I see some of the lengths people go to to try and negate the negativity. I also usually take a wait and see approach to trades and team acquisitions and don't fully weigh in like I have here. Once again, the lengths some have gone to to try and put that lipstick on really bothers me.
Remember the optimism about JRich matching his Mia days here because..Luka? Delon Wright, the same thing. The fit was so perfect, how could it possibly go wrong? The optimism about SD's no defense playing on a team trying to play defense self is just more of the same to me. I would be fine if people were trying to say, let's see what we got first. We have some of those here, we just have a vocal few that are going to great lengths to make this trade look to be more than it is. That is not including you.
COPIUM
People can't handle the truth so they come up with their own narrative. Look at human existence. Vast majority of people believe in fictional deities.
At worst, at least offensively, if he takes the same deep, YOLO KP threes, he should hit them at a better clip.
(02-14-2022, 04:22 PM)burekemde Wrote: [ -> ]Both players have ability to transform their career and improve. Bertans could really fit the Luka offense. He will see much more space than he ever has and most likely will shoot better than ever. Dinwiddie has the perfect skill set to be that 6th man and transform our bad bench unit, desperately needed at the moment and for being able to make a deep playoff push and keep Luka fresh. Much more so than THJ, has Dinwiddie the skillset to be the 6th man. When Luka is out, we need a player with similar skillset on offense as Luka. Dinwiddie has actually that, he can penetrate score and pass. The bench unit offense can now with Dinwiddie be run in similar tactical fashion as the starting unit - That is great confort for other players on the team that the scheme doesnt change. Brunson can then focus to run with the Lukas unit more.
The trade makes really a lot sense and improves us. The only thing missing is a big men to control the paint. We saw warning signs in last game not being able to stop Zubac. That's a big hole. Maxi can fill it - but can he play big minutes?
EDIT: Dinwiddie played very well when not with Bradley Beal. The same might be with Luka. But Dinwiddie running the 2nd unit? That could turn out explosive. If that happens, Luka will stay more fresh, and we have all seen that Lukas defense improves a lot. Luka cant handle the offensive workload he needs to do at the moment. As soon as the bench comes in, we are losing points and the leads and they need to put Luka back in earlier than the coaches want.
Some great points! My quick thoughts:
Bertans: If he lights it up from 3, we will like him and he will increase his value. Same as THJ.
Dinwiddie: If he runs the 2nd team well, gathers assists and can find a way to be productive with Luka or Jalen….he will contribute. AND he will increase his value.
It is more about creating value to me.
While I hope for one or both of these things (and both are feasable), we have opened the door for so many more opportunities. The KP contract was going to be an anchor unless he returned to healthy, all-star form. That is not gonna happen. I just would love for either of these guys to return to being an asset. BUT….if they dont….we now have a better contractual path forward.
On another note: for the playoffs I would love to replace Chriss with a more veteran big. Chriss has really struggled. Too bad because I thought he was a nice find. Maybe I need to be more patient.
(02-14-2022, 06:43 PM)SatnamSingh Wrote: [ -> ]COPIUM
People can't handle the truth so they come up with their own narrative. Look at human existence. Vast majority of people believe in fictional deities.
Isn´t that exactly what happened during KP´s time in Dallas. I think that is the reason for the outrage. People coming to terms with the real world value of KP. The trade did not change a lot. Mavs are still in a difficult situation but it was an eye opener for people that did not see the problems.
(02-14-2022, 04:22 PM)burekemde Wrote: [ -> ]Both players have ability to transform their career and improve. Bertans could really fit the Luka offense. He will see much more space than he ever has and most likely will shoot better than ever. Dinwiddie has the perfect skill set to be that 6th man and transform our bad bench unit, desperately needed at the moment and for being able to make a deep playoff push and keep Luka fresh. Much more so than THJ, has Dinwiddie the skillset to be the 6th man. When Luka is out, we need a player with similar skillset on offense as Luka. Dinwiddie has actually that, he can penetrate score and pass. The bench unit offense can now with Dinwiddie be run in similar tactical fashion as the starting unit - That is great confort for other players on the team that the scheme doesnt change. Brunson can then focus to run with the Lukas unit more.
The trade makes really a lot sense and improves us. The only thing missing is a big men to control the paint. We saw warning signs in last game not being able to stop Zubac. That's a big hole. Maxi can fill it - but can he play big minutes?
EDIT: Dinwiddie played very well when not with Bradley Beal. The same might be with Luka. But Dinwiddie running the 2nd unit? That could turn out explosive. If that happens, Luka will stay more fresh, and we have all seen that Lukas defense improves a lot. Luka cant handle the offensive workload he needs to do at the moment. As soon as the bench comes in, we are losing points and the leads and they need to put Luka back in earlier than the coaches want.
But we already have that player, his name is Brunson. You can start Brunson and still stagger him with Luka so that you almost always have one on the court. Brunson's game is more similar to Luka than Dinwiddie is. He is like a mini Luka.
Brunson is at his best running the team when Luka is out, but at least can still function reasonably well with Luka. Not sure we can say the same for Dinwiddie. Also concerned that a Brunson/Dinwiddie tandem will take the ball out of Brunson's hands where he is most effective and turn him into an undersized shooting guard. That will lower his value and likely his interest in being here.
In the playoffs there will be max of 10 minutes a game when Luka is not on the court. If that is our primary purpose for Dinwiddie, not sure how is ever going to become worth his 18 mil.
(02-14-2022, 07:39 PM)dirkfansince1998 Wrote: [ -> ]Isn´t that exactly what happened during KP´s time in Dallas. I think that is the reason for the outrage. People coming to terms with the real world value of KP. The trade did not change a lot. Mavs are still in a difficult situation but it was an eye opener for people that did not see the problems.
I mean lets be honest, did you see it being this bad? I can understand the argument that KP had little value, but did you really think we would have to take on this bad of assets just to dump him? I would have been disappointed but understood if we dumped him for expirings, but this was just so bad. KP could never play another game in his career and the Wiz still probably got the better end of this deal.
(02-14-2022, 08:08 PM)mvossman Wrote: [ -> ]I mean lets be honest, did you see it being this bad? I can understand the argument that KP had little value, but did you really think we would have to take on this bad of assets just to dump him? I would have been disappointed but understood if we dumped him for expirings, but this was just so bad. KP could never play another game in his career and the Wiz still probably got the better end of this deal.
I wanted to trade him for Wiggins when people still thought that he was a bust on a terrible contract so I was definitely really low on him. Clearly had him in the negative value category but...no I didn´t expect it to be as bad.
Difference is that for me this is just slightly below my expectations. Looking at some of the trade proposals it seems like many posters expected a near allstar package or thought that KP and minor assets could land the Mavs a star player. Easy to understand why they think the trade was a disaster if that was the starting point. We aren´t even close to Siakam, Turner, Sabonis or Ben Simmons value. Aren´t even close to neutral value.
What now? I guess we can continue to complain or deny that his value was as bad as the trade suggests but that won´t change a thing. Looking at the reports the Mavs tried to find other trades. There just wasn´t any interest.
If we can accept that the trade isn´t looking as terrible. Just two teams exchanging bad salary. Hoping that a new situation can help the involved players.
(02-14-2022, 10:43 AM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]High likelihood that SD gets his final year.
DB? 75% of games is quite a bit.
I personally think Bertans contract is perfect:
1) If he is good and healthy he gets the final year guaranteed (and $16M will be a STEAL in 2024-25.
2) If he sucks (you bench him) or he is hurt he only costs $5M.
Great deal for the team.
This is the definition of “rose colored lenses.” Look up “worst contract in the NBA” and Bertans regularly falls somewhere between 1 and 10, a lot of times landing in the 1-4 spots. KP barely makes some of these lists.
I get you are excited and want to root for our boys in blue. I do too, and I hope he finds renewed success here. But to say he “fits like a glove”, his contract is “perfect”, and that he could be a “decent defender” is all just shocking.
(02-14-2022, 08:08 PM)mvossman Wrote: [ -> ]I mean lets be honest, did you see it being this bad? I can understand the argument that KP had little value, but did you really think we would have to take on this bad of assets just to dump him? I would have been disappointed but understood if we dumped him for expirings, but this was just so bad. KP could never play another game in his career and the Wiz still probably got the better end of this deal.
His value was trashed after the playoffs. Here were my thoughts after Game 3 last year. Would have thrown Dinwiddie in there too for good measure if he had been on their roster. Toot toot!
(05-28-2021, 11:20 PM)loki Wrote: [ -> ]I still think Washington is the most likely team to get desperate and trade for KP. I was hoping for Bertans/Bryant/lotto pick. Now it's more like Bertans/Bryant and hope the Mavs don't have to add all their picks.
(02-14-2022, 08:37 PM)loki Wrote: [ -> ]His value was trashed after the playoffs. Here were my thoughts after Game 3 last year. Would have thrown Dinwiddie in there too for good measure if he had been on their roster. Toot toot!
It was bad after the playoffs. That is why the did not trade him in the offseason (although in retrospect they might as well have, when they could have used cap space to replace him a quality center instead of signing THJ). Would have thought some of it got recouped this year. Other than his shooting he played really well, especially on defense.
(02-14-2022, 08:32 PM)dirkfansince1998 Wrote: [ -> ]I wanted to trade him for Wiggins when people still thought that he was a bust on a terrible contract so I was definitely really low on him. Clearly had him in the negative value category but...no I didn´t expect it to be as bad.
Difference is that for me this is just slightly below my expectations. Looking at some of the trade proposals it seems like many posters expected a near allstar package or thought that KP and minor assets could land the Mavs a star player. Easy to understand why they think the trade was a disaster if that was the starting point. We aren´t even close to Siakam, Turner, Sabonis or Ben Simmons value. Aren´t even close to neutral value.
What now? I guess we can continue to complain or deny that his value was as bad as the trade suggests but that won´t change a thing. Looking at the reports the Mavs tried to find other trades. There just wasn´t any interest.
If we can accept that the trade isn´t looking as terrible. Just two teams exchanging bad salary. Hoping that a new situation can help the involved players.
I guess the big difference is our assessment of the package we got. Something like a Wiggins, or McCollum or even Tobias Harris would have been reasonable. Overpriced good players who would fit on this team. Instead we got Bertans who is one of the worst contracts in the NBA, and has been worse than a vet min on the court this year, and Dinwiddie who I have huge fit concerns with, especially with regards to his impact on Brunson. Killer made a comment that KP made Luka worse on the court. I feel like SD is going to have the same impact on Brunson.
(02-14-2022, 09:07 PM)mvossman Wrote: [ -> ]It was bad after the playoffs. That is why the did not trade him in the offseason (although in retrospect they might as well have, when they could have used cap space to replace him a quality center instead of signing THJ). Would have thought some of it got recouped this year. Other than his shooting he played really well, especially on defense.
He played relatively well defensively, but there's always a good chance he'll get run off the court when it really counts. Couple that with the injuries and I'm not surprised there were almost no offers. It's a shame he couldn't stay healthy for half a season. That might have been enough to rehab some value.
A good scouting report on Davis Bertans, although it is from August 2020. You might want to get to know the Latvian Laser's game more. I just want to share it it here.
https://youtu.be/dPvTczklpL0
(02-14-2022, 09:16 PM)mvossman Wrote: [ -> ]I guess the big difference is our assessment of the package we got. Something like a Wiggins, or McCollum or even Tobias Harris would have been reasonable. Overpriced good players who would fit on this team. Instead we got Bertans who is one of the worst contracts in the NBA, and has been worse than a vet min on the court this year, and Dinwiddie who I have huge fit concerns with, especially with regards to his impact on Brunson. Killer made a comment that KP made Luka worse on the court. I feel like SD is going to have the same impact on Brunson.
Dinwiddie played with Kyrie and he played with Levert who are both guards that penetrate and put pressure on a defense inside. Both of those guys worked out just fine playing next to Dinwiddie.
What is different about Brunson's game to suggest he cannot play with him? Dinwiddie has played on and off the ball his entire career. Levert did a lot of ball handling when he played for the Nets.
(02-14-2022, 09:07 PM)mvossman Wrote: [ -> ]It was bad after the playoffs. That is why the did not trade him in the offseason (although in retrospect they might as well have, when they could have used cap space to replace him a quality center instead of signing THJ). Would have thought some of it got recouped this year. Other than his shooting he played really well, especially on defense.
Let´s hope they did not intend to trade Porzingis as early as last summer, cause that would only make the decision to not pursue Markkanen even dumber. Now they got the sh*tty Markkanen for the same 16M per year instead.
(02-15-2022, 06:49 AM)LukTheShadow Wrote: [ -> ]"Trading for Porzingis was a gamble and, ultimately, a failure. But building a championship team is never a clean, linear process. Hiring a rookie general manager was also a gamble. Now Harrison has selected his preferred failure exit strategy and set himself up a different hand. It won’t take long for us to learn how his first time at the table plays out."
https://www.dmagazine.com/sports/2022/02...-now-what/
Good read and great take on the situation.
Been away from the board for a while so haven't had the opportunity to provide my perspective on this trade. Count me among the cautiously optimistic. Seems the general consensus around this deal is that the Mavs made the trade to free themselves from KP's contract and open up flexibility to make additional moves in the future. Fair point. But I like this move from a pure basketball standpoint, especially for playoff basketball and especially for Luka.
We all know good defensive teams switch in the playoffs and the two recent Clips games offer a template for how to beat the Mavs in a seven game series. We saw it last year too. It's all about exploiting the Mavs personnel by switching on Luka and forcing him to be a scorer. Luka can (and likely will) go off for 40+ but Brunson was only one other guy on the roster who could consistently attack a switching defense, but he struggles with length.
I'll go on record that Dinwiddie will play with Luka and Brunson when teams try to force Luka into being a scorer. Dinwiddie can attack defenses on his own and that will help keep Luka fresh for the fourth quarter. My best guess is he'll settle into a 25-32 minute role, essentially taking KP's 15 shots and scoring 16-18 points per game. If he can do it, this trade is a big win.
Of course, we also know good defensive teams tend to blitz Luka with double teams in the fourth quarter. When that happens you need shooters to space the floor and a secondary initiator to take the pressure off no 77. Dinwiddie has the potential to add value against blitzing defenses but Bertans adds value as an elite floor spacer.
Bertans is a four-five in the modern NBA but in Washington he was often on the floor with two other bigs. Not ideal. I'll go on record that Bertans will never play with two bigs in Dallas and Chriss is the guy most likely to loose his spot in a playoff rotation. Bertans will come close to matching Kleber's 20-25 min but will outscore him many nights, taking 6-8 of THJ's shots and boosting the second unit 8-11 points per game. If he can do it this trade is a home run.
(02-15-2022, 09:48 AM)vfromlmf Wrote: [ -> ]Been away from the board for a while so haven't had the opportunity to provide my perspective on this trade. Count me among the cautiously optimistic. Seems the general consensus around this deal is that the Mavs made the trade to free themselves from KP's contract and open up flexibility to make additional moves in the future. Fair point. But I like this move from a pure basketball standpoint, especially for playoff basketball and especially for Luka.
We all know good defensive teams switch in the playoffs and the two recent Clips games offer a template for how to beat the Mavs in a seven game series. We saw it last year too. It's all about exploiting the Mavs personnel by switching on Luka and forcing him to be a scorer. Luka can (and likely will) go off for 40+ but Brunson was only one other guy on the roster who could consistently attack a switching defense, but he struggles with length.
I'll go on record that Dinwiddie will play with Luka and Brunson when teams try to force Luka into being a scorer. Dinwiddie can attack defenses on his own and that will help keep Luka fresh for the fourth quarter. My best guess is he'll settle into a 25-32 minute role, essentially taking KP's 15 shots and scoring 16-18 points per game. If he can do it, this trade is a big win.
Of course, we also know good defensive teams tend to blitz Luka with double teams in the fourth quarter. When that happens you need shooters to space the floor and a secondary initiator to take the pressure off no 77. Dinwiddie has the potential to add value against blitzing defenses but Bertans adds value as an elite floor spacer.
Bertans is a four-five in the modern NBA but in Washington he was often on the floor with two other bigs. Not ideal. I'll go on record that Bertans will never play with two bigs in Dallas and Chriss is the guy most likely to loose his spot in a playoff rotation. Bertans will come close to matching Kleber's 20-25 min but will outscore him many nights, taking 6-8 of THJ's shots and boosting the second unit 8-11 points per game. If he can do it this trade is a home run.
Lots of great thoughts here.