(02-10-2022, 06:27 PM)TXBamanut Wrote: [ -> ]Yeah, if you are saying that Spencer Dinwiddie is Jason Terry and Bertans is Peja, then you're an idiot....that's strong, but it's fact.
No, I said $140 million for one superstar and a bunch of older role players is hardly reason to throw in the towel. That was your implication.
(02-10-2022, 06:27 PM)cow Wrote: [ -> ]Bertans was 27 last time he shot 40%. Go take a peak at Peja's numbers when he was 27.
Old Peja is a fair comparisation. I will forever love Peja for his shooting streak in the Lakers series but he was a monumental liability on defense. Thankfully he barely played in the finals. 40% cutoff is a little bit random. 39.5% last season.
(02-10-2022, 06:34 PM)dirkfansince1998 Wrote: [ -> ]Old Peja is a fair comparisation. I will forever love Peja for his shooting streak in the Lakers series but he was a monumental liability on defense. Thankfully he barely played in the finals. 40% cutoff is a little bit random. 39.5% last season.
Old Peja shot 8%+ higher than current Bertans.
The skeleton of KP hung over this team like a 7'3" albatross. Now that the pungent smoke has cleared, this is clearly Luka's team, a team that's been functioning pretty well without 'zingus. Anything the two challenged new hires contribute is a plus.
(02-10-2022, 06:21 PM)MrGoat Wrote: [ -> ]KP actually played more games than Bertans this season, and it's not that big a difference between him and Dinwiddie
^ Um no. While all of these players have sat here and there, the mythologizing on the games played this season, to skew perception, is getting absurd.
Dinwiddie has missed 9 games.
Bertans has missed 19 games.
KP has missed 21 games
(02-10-2022, 06:36 PM)WildArkieBoy Wrote: [ -> ]The skeleton of KP hung over this team like a 7'3" albatross. Now that the pungent smoke has cleared, this is clearly Luka's team, a team that's been functioning pretty well without 'zingus. Anything the two challenged new hires contribute is a plus.
This ^, sad to say. I hate that KP wasn't who we wanted him to be. But he wasn't really making the team better - and not reliable at all. Anything the two new hires contribute is indeed a plus. "
(02-10-2022, 06:36 PM)WildArkieBoy Wrote: [ -> ]The skeleton of KP hung over this team like a 7'3" albatross. Now that the pungent smoke has cleared, this is clearly Luka's team, a team that's been functioning pretty well without 'zingus. Anything the two challenged new hires contribute is a plus.
We still owe '23 to the Knicks so there is still smoke in the air no matter how you feel about Tweedle Dim and Tweedle Dav. Not to mention the THJ contract.
(02-10-2022, 06:36 PM)cow Wrote: [ -> ]Old Peja shot 8%+ higher than current Bertans.
Do you think Bertans completly forgot how to shoot? With his career volume and percentages I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. Peja for example improved his FG and 3-point percentage by 4% after joining the Mavs.
(02-10-2022, 06:37 PM)F Gump Wrote: [ -> ]^ Um no. While all of these players have sat here and there, the mythologizing on the games played this season, to skew perception, is getting absurd.
Dinwiddie has missed 9 games.
Bertans has missed 19 games.
KP has missed 21 games
And I believe most of Bertans' missed games were due to DNP-CD, not because of injury? Wizards had a bit of a logjam in the frontcourt with Rui, Harrel, Kuzma, Gafford, etc.
It is what it is. I am just relieved I dont have to watch awkward KP post ups anymore.
I don’t know why we talk about fit. Bertans might fit well here and he is a very good shooter probably having a bad year. He might well get his touch back here.
My problem is the narrative that KP was not a good fit here. If you want to bring up his reliability I agree completely. However, he also hd some very good games this season where he was carrying the team. We lost close games to Pnx with Luka out. Both seemed genuinely trying to play with each other and his defense was also much better this year.
For those blaming him again let me point out we lost to Orl and OKC without him. It is not as if he was the cause of all or most ills on this team.
If we met an elite team in the playoffs a healthy Luka and a healthy KP still gave us a shot. To build a title team you need 3 very good players. I agree that with his reliability issues you were sinking a lot of money into a Robin or even a 3rd star. However what we have done now is get some good fitting pieces ( if they regain their forms) but we are nowhere near competing with any elite team. If the silver lining we want to hang onto is SD expiring contract 2 years down will be easier to move, I am not sure if that merits this trade.
(02-10-2022, 06:41 PM)dirkfansince1998 Wrote: [ -> ]Do you think Bertans completly forgot how to shoot? With his career volume and percentages I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. Peja for example improved his FG and 3-point percentage by 4% after joining the Mavs.
His 3PT shot was actually worse for the Mavericks of all the teams he played with that season (tiny sample sizes). Outside of his rookie season, he never shot below 37.5% from 3PT. He shot over 40% for his career (13 Seasons). Peja's rookie season is still better than Bertan's current season percentages. Peja's name deserves some respect.
(02-10-2022, 06:47 PM)hakeemfaan Wrote: [ -> ]I don’t know why we talk about fit. Bertans might fit well here and he is a very good shooter probably having a bad year. He might well get his touch back here.
My problem is the narrative that KP was not a good fit here. If you want to bring up his reliability I agree completely. However, he also hd some very good games this season where he was carrying the team. We lost close games to Pnx with Luka out. Both seemed genuinely trying to play with each other and his defense was also much better this year.
For those blaming him again let me point out we lost to Orl and OKC without him. It is not as if he was the cause of all or most ills on this team.
If we met an elite team in the playoffs a healthy Luka and a healthy KP still gave us a shot. To build a title team you need 3 very good players. I agree that with his reliability issues you were sinking a lot of money into a Robin or even a 3rd star. However what we have done now is get some good fitting pieces ( if they regain their forms) but we are nowhere near competing with any elite team. If the silver lining we want to hang onto is SD expiring contract 2 years down will be easier to move, I am not sure if that merits this trade.
Question is if the Mavs were a better team when KP played. I already made my case plenty of times. I just don´t see it. At best him playing/not playing didn´t change the outcome. But in my opinion that´s not event he case. Mavs played better without KP. And it´s not like this is suprising. Just ask RC.
What are the options in a situation like this? Go the John Wall route and let him collect DNPs. Go the RC route. Let him play but limit his role/touches. Bench him and hope that he is willing to accept a lesser role. Or...trade him.
(02-10-2022, 06:48 PM)cow Wrote: [ -> ]His 3PT shot was actually worse for the Mavericks of all the teams he played with that season (tiny sample sizes). Outside of his rookie season, he never shot below 37.5% from 3PT. He shot over 40% for his career (13 Seasons). Peja's rookie season is still better than Bertan's current season percentages. Peja's name deserves some respect.
And the mentioned 37.5% season was 09/10. Season before he joined the Mavs. Peja was a great shooter and overall in a completly different league compared to Bertans.
But we are talking about him in his last season. Averaging 9pts and 2 reb. 7pts and 2 reb in the playoffs.
No one is comparing Bertans to the version of Peja that finished 3rd in MVP voting. Just think that Bertans can average 8-10pts/2-3reb on solid percentages.
(02-10-2022, 07:00 PM)dirkfansince1998 Wrote: [ -> ]And the mentioned 37.5% season was 09/10. Season before he joined the Mavs. Peja was a great shooter and overall in a completly different league compared to Bertans.
But we are talking about him in his last season. Averaging 9pts and 2 reb. 7pts and 2 reb in the playoffs.
No one is comparing Bertans to the version of Peja that finished 3rd in MVP voting. Just think that Bertans can average 8-10pts/2-3reb on solid percentages.
He has a hill to climb to even match washed up Paja, is my point. And Peja was highly situational for the Mavs. And we didn't owe him 49 million the next three seasons.
(02-10-2022, 07:03 PM)cow Wrote: [ -> ]He has a hill to climb to even match washed up Paja, is my point.
Championship nostalgia is strong with all of us. Again Peja was great against the Lakers and Blazers. But he averaged 3ppg against the Thunder and Heat. Did not play in the last two games. Him entering the floor in the finals lead to instant Heat runs.
I trust Bertans to have a few good shooting night. And maybe he turns out to be slightly more useful on defense.
(02-10-2022, 06:55 PM)dirkfansince1998 Wrote: [ -> ]Question is if the Mavs were a better team when KP played. I already made my case plenty of times. I just don´t see it. At best him playing/not playing didn´t change the outcome. But in my opinion that´s not event he case. Mavs played better without KP. And it´s not like this is suprising. Just ask RC.
What are the options in a situation like this? Go the John Wall route and let him collect DNPs. Go the RC route. Let him play but limit his role/touches. Bench him and hope that he is willing to accept a lesser role. Or...trade him.
Let’s ask Luka also about RC then. It is not as if RC is infallible. Plus I really don’t want to blame RC given all we learned after he left about the total dysfunction here. Who knows if RC was even implementing what he wanted or trying to appease Luka.
We did lose recently to OKC and Orl with KP out. So I would not agree with a blanket statement that this team is better off without him.
The problem with KP is that he never merited the unicorn tag and he seemed to buy into it too. However this year I saw a lot more cuts from him to the basket and a lot better defense than last year. Look at his numbers before his injury. Yes you can point to losses but the numbers he was putting up are not happening without any talent. He was probably overpaid for a 3rd star but the problem is now we are back to one legit starting talent that most GMs will agree upon. Our defense did not get any better with this trade and not much in terms of any immediate financial upside either.
Yea KP had his flaws but he had his strengths too and in a league where the playoffs come down to top heavy talent , we took a step backwards today. We now need to find a 2nd level star and a 3rd level star.
(02-10-2022, 07:09 PM)dirkfansince1998 Wrote: [ -> ]Championship nostalgia is strong with all of us. Again Peja was great against the Lakers and Blazers. But he averaged 3ppg against the Thunder and Heat. Did not play in the last two games. Him entering the floor in the finals lead to instant Heat runs.
I trust Bertans to have a few good shooting night. And maybe he turns out to be slightly more useful on defense.
No nostalgia at all. Peja served his purpose against certain teamw and didn't really cost us anything nor were we committed to him long term. I think the Peja comp is fine if you want to say Bertans is as situationally useful as Peja. We are in for 3 more season of Bertans
(02-10-2022, 05:17 PM)fifteenth Wrote: [ -> ]Two smart guys, you and @hakeemfan, say that we should have waited. OK. But I don't understand why. What would be the benefit of waiting? Would KP's contract have become easier to move in the summer? Would his max contract be more helpful in trades this summer than the two smaller ones?
Might be late to this but just going through the thread but essentially yes. The less years on KP's contract the easier it theoretically is to move and the more palatable it is to the receiving team. Further there is always the chance that KP breaks out and has an incredibly healthy season paired with good O and D.
THATS when you sell him. But whatever I've moved on. Dumb mistake and hopefully Dinwiddie and Bertans don't make us regret trading KP.
(02-10-2022, 07:12 PM)hakeemfaan Wrote: [ -> ]Let’s ask Luka also about RC then. It is not as if RC is infallible. Plus I really don’t want to blame RC given all we learned after he left about the total dysfunction here. Who knows if RC was even implementing what he wanted or trying to appease Luka.
We did lose recently to OKC and Orl with KP out. So I would not agree with a blanket statement that this team is better off without him.
The problem with KP is that he never merited the unicorn tag and he seemed to buy into it too. However this year I saw a lot more cuts from him to the basket and a lot better defense than last year. Look at his numbers before his injury. Yes you can point to losses but the numbers he was putting up are not happening without any talent. He was probably overpaid for a 3rd star but the problem is now we are back to one legit starting talent that most GMs will agree upon. Our defense did not get any better with this trade and not much in terms of any immediate financial upside either.
Yea KP had his flaws but he had his strengths too and in a league where the playoffs come down to top heavy talent , we took a step backwards today. We now need to find a 2nd level star and a 3rd level star.
I think that is where we disagree. I just don´t see KP as a 2nd or 3rd level star. Would argue that Brunson is more likely to fill that role than KP ever was. Mavs losing two close games doesn´t change that when the overall body of work is as big as the Mavs without KP. 40-28 without him over the last 3 seasons. Or more recently 9-3 since new year. Including the "best" wins of the season against the "best" teams in the league (Chicago, GS, Memphis, Philly).
Only brought up RC to emphasize that this isn´t a recent development. Concerns about KP´s impact and role aren´t new. That´s why many of us wanted to trade him at the last deadline or in the summer. Mavs decided to swallow the pill and move him today.
Maybe the Mavs aren´t better but I don´t see a scenario where losing KP makes them worse. I am not happy about the return but it just confirmed what I already thought. League isn´t buying into the hype or into his numbers. Other teams aren´t blind they are seeing the same things that we used to complain about.