What happened to THJ?

[omahen]

We also know our FO will go out of their way to show everyone they believe they win trades through their doling out of contracts afterwards.

You mean like in Wright and J.Jackson case?

[ItsGoTime]

You mean like in Wright and J.Jackson case?

EXACTLY! Who else could I possibly be talking about?

[mavsluvr]

I don’t agree with the first sentence, but I do with the second. 

He can carry a team on any given night where the opponent sucks (and it’s not like he would every given night against such opponents either), sure, other than that he’s pretty hit and miss where when he’s miss, he does very little else for the team.

However, I believe the FO believes him to be another culture guy and will pay him as such. In the words of KL “BE PREPARED”.

JRich could very well be another of those types. We also know our FO will go out of their way to show everyone they believe they win trades through their doling out of contracts afterwards.

Thanks, IGT. 

Just to clarify, I am assuming that you disagree that he is capable of carrying the team on any given night, but that you agree that he can score from anywhere. If not, we could have a discussion on what areas of the court he is incapable of scoring from, but for now, I will base the discussion on our agreement to that extent. 

Also to be clear, I don't say that he can carry the team EVERY night, just that it is possible on any given night. Normally, he is not called upon to do that, but when Luka is not on the court, he is usually the first or second option. Scoring 42 points in a game without the benefit of Luka on the court making all those great passes is extraordinary, even against a bad team. 

I agree that the Mavs think Tim is a good locker room guy, but I don't think they would re-sign him if that were the only thing he was contributing. He is too expensive for that. 

He is on the floor primarily for his ability to score. Not just to shoot, but to score in a variety of ways. Even with his slumps, I think he's still averaging over 15 ppg. He is also very durable, which is a more valuable attribute than is often discussed. I think he has only missed a game or so this season. 

His skills are less easily replaceable than a lot of people think. If you can get a Kawhi or LeBron or Steph instead, by all means, you do it, but if you look at what seems to be available out there, it's not clear that someone obviously better is realistic. 

I am not here trying to be a Tim Hardaway apologist, just trying to understand the situation in a clear-eyed manner. In assessing the value his skills are likely to command, and how easy he would be to replace, it is my impression from this thread that some fans think he is essentially fungible with the average NBA guard and that no one will be interested in paying him much this summer. (I understand that you did not take those positions, IGT.) I seriously question whether either of those propositions is correct.  

If the Mavs re-sign him, I think Tim, Sr. would definitely deserve some swag for attending games, lol.

[ItsGoTime]

Thanks, IGT. 

Just to clarify, I am assuming that you disagree that he is capable of carrying the team on any given night, but that you agree that he can score from anywhere. If not, we could have a discussion on what areas of the court he is incapable of scoring from, but for now, I will base the discussion on our agreement to that extent. 

Also to be clear, I don't say that he can carry the team EVERY night, just that it is possible on any given night. Normally, he is not called upon to do that, but when Luka is not on the court, he is usually the first or second option. Scoring 42 points in a game without the benefit of Luka on the court making all those great passes is extraordinary, even against a bad team. 

I agree that the Mavs think Tim is a good locker room guy, but I don't think they would re-sign him if that were the only thing he was contributing. He is too expensive for that. 

He is on the floor primarily for his ability to score. Not just to shoot, but to score in a variety of ways. Even with his slumps, I think he's still averaging over 15 ppg. He is also very durable, which is a more valuable attribute than is often discussed. I think he has only missed a game or so this season. 

His skills are less easily replaceable than a lot of people think. If you can get a Kawhi or LeBron or Steph instead, by all means, you do it, but if you look at what seems to be available out there, it's not clear that someone obviously better is realistic. 

I am not here trying to be a Tim Hardaway apologist, just trying to understand the situation in a clear-eyed manner. In assessing the value his skills are likely to command, and how easy he would be to replace, it is my impression from this thread that some fans think he is essentially fungible with the average NBA guard and that no one will be interested in paying him much this summer. (I understand that you did not take those positions, IGT.) I seriously question whether either of those propositions is correct.  

If the Mavs re-sign him, I think Tim, Sr. would definitely deserve some swag for attending games, lol.

Ya, for the most part he CAN score from anywhere on the court, however I think his accuracy (and hence ability) gets pretty volatile anytime he isn't playing the catch and shoot or pump fake, single rhythm dribble, shoot role (he can shoot and make those under defensive pressure decently for the most part and shoots them wide open very well). 

I don't see him as an automatic finisher at the rim when there are any defenders close. I  don't see him as much of a distributor/ball handler. I don't see him as an even average defender. Sure, he can every once in a while go off on a team, but even then, I don't remember the last good game he had against a quality opponent (not that we've had a lot of them lately), and to that extent, he shrank in the playoffs last year.

Those reasons are why I believe he has found himself on the bench this season, because the bench is for guys exactly like him. 

I think there is a team that would probably pay him a lot for a perceived talent that he doesn't have...at least hasn't really shown it on this team, but I really hope the Mavs are smarter than to pay him more than 3/36-40, and in all honesty, I'd prefer that final year be a team option or lesser guaranteed money. That is to say 2 other things, I think the Mavs do pay him more than that, and they bid against themselves on the contract.

[mavsluvr]

Did you know?  


https://twitter.com/Boweman55/status/138...96736?s=20

[dynamicalVoid]

Luka, THJ, Redick, Maxi, KP who says no?

[ItsGoTime]

Did you know?  


https://twitter.com/Boweman55/status/138...96736?s=20

Ok, so add that 3.1% of his possessions to the positive side. Not exactly sure of the math on this, but I figure that out to be roughly .4 times per game he scores 1.36 points (or a rough guesstimate of a shot made every 3 games). That's using his 12.9 FGA per game as possessions which would be off from the actual number of total possessions since there are turn overs and such to take into account.

[mavsluvr]

Ok, so add that 3.1% of his possessions to the positive side. Not exactly sure of the math on this, but I figure that out to be roughly .4 times per game he scores 1.36 points (or a rough guesstimate of a shot made every 3 games). That's using his 12.9 FGA per game as possessions which would be off from the actual number of total possessions since there are turn overs and such to take into account.

Yeah, I took that tweet as a suggestion they might make more use of that play. I hadn't been familiar with the state before the tweet.

[ItsGoTime]

Yeah, I took that tweet as a suggestion they might make more use of that play. I hadn't been familiar with the state before the tweet.

Hey, I'm all for it if it works! If it does, I think his value to the team goes up too. If it stays 3.1% of his possessions, not sure it's all that much of a factor come contract time...for me at least.

[mavsluvr]

Hey, I'm all for it if it works! If it does, I think his value to the team goes up too. If it stays 3.1% of his possessions, not sure it's all that much of a factor come contract time...for me at least.

That seems reasonable.

[F Gump]

Just wondering - is what we have been seeing, is that THJ's game will suffer when he doesn't get to possess the ball earlier in the shot clock, on a regular basis? ie if he's mostly taking Luka's leftovers on a catch-and-shoot basis, rather than having time for the option to create?

[omahen]

Just wondering - is what we have been seeing, is that THJ's game will suffer when he doesn't get to possess the ball earlier in the shot clock, on a regular basis? ie if he's mostly taking Luka's leftovers on a catch-and-shoot basis, rather than having time for the option to create?

I am not sure I understand the question. Luka's leftovers as you call them are actually what really improved THJ. Before Dallas he was an inefficient chucker with an occasional (rare) game like yesterday against Detroit. With Luka setting him up for better looks and THJ being an excellent shooter, his efficiency greatly improved.

[DanSchwartzgan]

Just wondering - is what we have been seeing, is that THJ's game will suffer when he doesn't get to possess the ball earlier in the shot clock, on a regular basis? ie if he's mostly taking Luka's leftovers on a catch-and-shoot basis, rather than having time for the option to create?

I thought that was a reasonable question.  The numbers paint a different picture.  Yes, he’s getting a lot of those type shots.  But, he’s more efficient at them than other shots.

Secs.   Att.    EFG%.   Pts.

0-10    45%   .561      6.3
11-15  28%.  .537      3.8
16-20  21%.  .546.     2.9
21+     7%.   .422.     0.7

[F Gump]

I thought that was a reasonable question.  The numbers paint a different picture.  Yes, he’s getting a lot of those type shots.  But, he’s more efficient at them than other shots.

Secs.   Att.    EFG%.   Pts.

0-10    45%   .561      6.3
11-15  28%.  .537      3.8
16-20  21%.  .546.     2.9
21+     7%.   .422.     0.7

I don't think that chart speaks to my point. It doesn't tell me how long THJ is getting to possess the ball at his discretion, and that's what I was talking about. (There's probably not a way to assess that, however, because you have to know what the team/coach is demanding.)

While he may get the ball early in the shot clock at times, if Luka is on the floor, I'm wondering does he have the freedom to dribble, probe, reverse, crossover, etc and probe for a shot? Or is his role to (a) catch-and-shoot, (b) catch, make a quick decisive move, and shoot, or © give the ball back to Luka to fiddle with?

We know that he played better on the second team. And with Luka out, here he takes over. I'm wondering if there is a common reason.

Player-player synergy can be hard to measure, but is a crucial issue. And on/off stats don't tell the whole story, since you do want other players who are really good and keep you from being overplayed, but maybe not so much when that means you rarely touch the ball.

[DanSchwartzgan]

I don't think that chart speaks to my point. It doesn't tell me how long THJ is getting to possess the ball at his discretion, and that's what I was talking about. (There's probably not a way to assess that, however, because you have to know what the team/coach is demanding.)

While he may get the ball early in the shot clock at times, if Luka is on the floor, I'm wondering does he have the freedom to dribble, probe, reverse, crossover, etc and probe for a shot? Or is his role to (a) catch-and-shoot, (b) catch, make a quick decisive move, and shoot, or © give the ball back to Luka to fiddle with?

This won’t answer the question directly either, but THJ is in the 17th percentile for his position in Asst/Usage and the 94th percentile in TOV%.  So, it is rare he gets an assist compared to how much he has the ball in his hands, but at least he doesn’t turn it over.  Whether he’s allowed to probe/create is still unknown.  But, we know he’s not doing it to create for others in any meaningful way.  To give some context, Powell has had a higher Asst./Usage ratio than THJ the last three seasons.

In his pre-Dallas career, THJ had double and triple the Assist/Usage ratio with a peak of the 62nd percentile his final year in Atlanta.  Of course, the tradeoff was he had a higher TO% in those years also.  His usage hasn’t changed meaningfully over the years, he’s just getting it in different ways.  3’s have been 58% of his attempts instead of 51% and he’s hitting a way better percent of those than the rest of his career.   He is unassisted on about half of his two point attempts, so he isn’t just a one trick pony.  But the tricks he does do don’t include creating for others very often.

[jerryjohnson]

I am officially taking credit for this thread lighting a fire under THJ.

[Time Machine Dirk]

Can we get back to the initial question and ask ourselves:

What happened to THJ? Any suggestions?

[StepBackJay]

Can we get back to the initial question and ask ourselves:

What happened to THJ? Any suggestions?

Man its feast or famine isn't it with THJ.

[Scott41theMavs]

Man its feast or famine isn't it with THJ.

Thing is lately, it hasn't been a game-to-game inconsistency. He had a great, very much extended stretch, then an extended abysmal stretch, and is now having a strong stretch. Seems that the Mavs' chances of making the playoffs and doing well there depend a lot on him maintaining that streak, especially as KP remains out.

[embellisher]

Thing is lately, it hasn't been a game-to-game inconsistency. He had a great, very much extended stretch, then an extended abysmal stretch, and is now having a strong stretch. Seems that the Mavs' chances of making the playoffs and doing well there depend a lot on him maintaining that streak, especially as KP remains out.

I just hope it continues to and through the playoffs.