TRADE: Delon Wright to SAC | Cory Joseph + two 2nds to DET

[fifteenth]

All this lipstick on a pig talk. It's yet another blemish that shouldn't be defended as hard as it is being defended.

The pushback on the idea that this is a blemish isn't "trying hard to defend", it's just pushback on the idea that this is a blemish.

I'd say that it takes Eeyore level pessimism and some "trying hard" to make the case that this is some kind of blemish.

[KillerLeft]

All this lipstick on a pig talk. It's yet another blemish that shouldn't be defended as hard as it is being defended.

Strong disagree here. 

The big (HUGE) difference is that Carlisle had better options to which he could turn when Wright faltered. He was trying to have a good season and make the playoffs for the first time in awhile. They DID have a good year, and part of that was BECAUSE he benched this dude. 

On the flip side, Casey tried like HELL to bench Wright, too. He was super far out of the rotation for about 1/3 of the season. About the time Hayes went down for the year, he got another chance and then eventually he emerged as one of the least objectionable choices available. In other words, at some point, Casey had no choice. From that point on, Wright did have a few good games, but it was nowhere near the renaissance some people here tried to paint after those good games. He was not consistently a good player this season. 

I'm not trying to argue that Casey got the most out of him possible - I'm sure he did. I'm just saying that doing so was clearly not his preference, and judging by their record, not much in Detroit went according to plan at all. 

I also won't push back against those that wish Dallas could've milked more out of their Wright trade than they did, now that we know what Detroit got for him. Still, they didn't ERASE his salary like Dallas did - those 2nds were incentive for Detroit to take back what they took back, I suppose. Still, kudos to them. 

Just saying - I do NOT look back on last season and wish Carlisle would've made "show Wright in the best light possible" a priority. I'm super happy he put his focus (and that of the team) on winning, personally.

[dirkfansince1998]

From that point on, Wright did have a few good games, but it was nowhere near the renaissance some people here tried to paint after those good games. He was not consistently a good player this season. 

10/5/5 1.6stls. Agree that he probably wouldn´t be as good in the Mavs system but just looking at the numbers (including on/off, advanced metrics) he is having a good season. Clearly better than Josh Richardson.

[KillerLeft]

10/5/5 1.6stls. Agree that he probably wouldn´t be as good in the Mavs system but just looking at the numbers (including on/off, advanced metrics) he is having a good season. Clearly better than Josh Richardson.

Yeah, so look: I'm probably never going to take those types of arguments all the way to heart when it comes to the play of a ball-handler on one of the league's worst teams. I just believe too strongly that the team would be decent if the guy in that role was playing well. A little bit like QB in the NFL (not exactly, of course).

[dirkfansince1998]

Yeah, so look: I'm probably never going to take those types of arguments all the way to heart when it comes to the play of a ball-handler on one of the league's worst teams. I just believe too strongly that the team would be decent if the guy in that role was playing well. A little bit like QB in the NFL (not exactly, of course).

Point is that the team was playing okay when he is on the floor. He cannot really do anything when the coaches decide to tank. He is the PG in Detroits three best lineups. Not really his fault that the coaches love to go with tank commander Plumlee or rookies instead of trying to win games.

[KillerLeft]

He is the PG in Detroits three best lineups. Not really his fault that the coaches love to go with tank commander Plumlee or rookies instead of trying to win games.

Right but (and I might be outing my lack of sleep here) are those the three best lineups compared to Detroit's other lineups, or compared to the rest of the league? 

At any rate, it's not worth arguing about, really. I didn't care for the player, and I'm super glad he's gone and that they didn't try to limp along through year 2 of him. I was surprised at what they got for him, but my thought was "good for them" not "WTF MBT!"

[dirkfansince1998]

Right but (and I might be outing my lack of sleep here) are those the three best lineups compared to Detroit's other lineups, or compared to the rest of the league? 

At any rate, it's not worth arguing about, really. I didn't care for the player, and I'm super glad he's gone and that they didn't try to limp along through year 2 of him. I was surprised at what they got for him, but my thought was "good for them" not "WTF MBT!"

It will always be WTF MBT because they wasted 3 2nds. That´s not going to change. Would be nice to have some additional 2nds right now. Fournier was traded for less.

[Mavs2021]

The pushback on the idea that this is a blemish isn't "trying hard to defend", it's just pushback on the idea that this is a blemish.

I'd say that it takes Eeyore level pessimism and some "trying hard" to make the case that this is some kind of blemish.

Yeah yeah we have been through this before. The Mavs only f*ck up the draft, free agency and trades when it doesn´t matter, but they are the greatest FO, when it comes to major moves that matter. Meanwhile in the top 5 with the longest active streaks without winning a play-off series. 10 years and counting, but....

---

It will always be WTF MBT because they wasted 3 2nds. That´s not going to change. Would be nice to have some additional 2nds right now. Fournier was traded for less.

Pretty sure, it´s four 2nd round picks. Two to get him, two to get rid of him.

[KillerLeft]

It will always be WTF MBT

For you maybe, and that's fine. For ME, when it comes to the Wright situation specifically, it will NEVER be that.

[dirkfansince1998]

For you maybe, and that's fine. For ME, when it comes to the Wright situation specifically, it will NEVER be that.

They gave up picks for a player that did not fit and had to give up even more picks to get rid of him. Great move. Where is the bang-head emote when I need it.

[KillerLeft]

Great move.

I'm not saying "great move." I'm just not losing any sleep over it. It's Delon Wright. They tried something, it was dumb, and then they had to pay to erase it. It is what it is. It's not worth "banging your head" over, my guy.

[fifteenth]

They gave up picks for a player that did not fit and had to give up even more picks to get rid of him. Great move. Where is the bang-head emote when I need it.

They gave up 2nd rounders for a guy that had the raw skills to fill a need. He has those skills but couldn't adjust his mindset. So they moved on and got J Rich instead. Teams try things and move on if they don't work out. It's not unusual. And saying they "gave up picks" to get rid of him intentionally tells part of the story of the trade in order to skew the conversation in a particular direction. 

And I don't see anyone giving giving push-back to this "blemish" claim by saying "great trade". 

A middle ground, reasonable conversation about these trades could probably be had. This hasn't been it.

[fifteenth]

Yeah yeah we have been through this before. The Mavs only f*ck up the draft, free agency and trades when it doesn´t matter, but they are the greatest FO, when it comes to major moves that matter. Meanwhile in the top 5 with the longest active streaks without winning a play-off series. 10 years and counting, but....

Every team has hits and misses. Make your hits bigger than your misses and you might win a little bit. If you collect about 10 free agency/trade/draft hits close enough together you might assemble a competitive roster, regardless of the presence of some misses. You don't think the Mavs have some below star level hits on this roster?

[dirkfansince1998]

So they moved on and got J Rich instead.

Really nailed it this time...

I get that we shouldn´t bash the MBT for no reason but I don´t understand why we should simply dismiss their mistakes. Wright wasn´t a big miss because 2nd round picks have limited value. Doesn´t change the fact that they threw them in the trash can.

[dirkfansince1998]

Every team has hits and misses. Make your hits bigger than your misses and you might win a little bit. If you collect about 10 free agency/trade/draft hits close enough together you might assemble a competitive roster, regardless of the presence of some misses. You don't think the Mavs have some below star level hits on this roster?

Mavs had some nice undrafted pickups (DFS,Maxi, I think Hinton looks solid) but we had this discussion a few weeks ago. It was based on an article that breaksdown the draft success of each team over the last 10 years.

https://towardsdatascience.com/measuring...f67cfb7718


I don´t want to repeat the entire argument. According to the author the Mavs rank in the bottom five in draft success. Among active GMs Donnie has the worst draft record.

[fifteenth]

Really nailed it this time...

I get that we shouldn´t bash the MBT for no reason but I don´t understand why we should simply dismiss their mistakes. Wright wasn´t a big miss because 2nd round picks have limited value. Doesn´t change the fact that they threw them in the trash can.

Taking a swing at Delon wasn't a success. No argument from me on that. I'm not dismissing anything. I pushed back on the "another blemish, the Mavs suck at assett management" sentiment. And I pushed back on the thought (which you make use of in the post I'm replying to) that they just threw away 2nd round picks. 

They spent 2nd rounders to take a shot on Delon. It failed. That's not throwing them away. That's opportunity cost. They spent 2nd rounders to facilitate a trade that got rid of Delon's money and brought back another player. So the continued "threw them away" statement doesn't accuratly discuss what actually happened. 

You can claim they lost both trades, if you want. That's better than citing just a portion a portion of what happened in a trade in order to bolster an argument, while ignoring the balance of the trade.

[fifteenth]

Mavs had some nice undrafted pickups (DFS,Maxi, I think Hinton looks solid) but we had this discussion a few weeks ago. It was based on an article that breaksdown the draft success of each team over the last 10 years.

https://towardsdatascience.com/measuring...f67cfb7718


I don´t want to repeat the entire argument. According to the author the Mavs rank in the bottom five in draft success. Among active GMs Donnie has the worst draft record.

No time to read the article. I guess I'm glad that teams that suck at drafting can use their draft picks to put together better rosters than teams that are better at drafting but don't put together rosters that win as much.

[dirkfansince1998]

Taking a swing at Delon wasn't a success. No argument from me on that. I'm not dismissing anything. I pushed back on the "another blemish, the Mavs suck at assett management" sentiment. And I pushed back on the thought (which you make use of in the post I'm replying to) that they just threw away 2nd round picks. 

They spent 2nd rounders to take a shot on Delon. It failed. That's not throwing them away. That's opportunity cost. They spent 2nd rounders to facilitate a trade that got rid of Delon's money and brought back another player. So the continued "threw them away" statement doesn't accuratel discuss what actually happened. 

You can claim they lost both trades, if you want. That's better than citing just a portion a portion of what happened in a trade in order to bolster an argument, while ignoring the balance of the trade.

The results matter. Not the thought process behind them. There are no bonus points for good intentions. Bottom line is. The Mavs had more assets prior to the DWright sign/trade. I don´t really care about winning or losing trades. I care about talent evaluation and asset management. No way to deny that the Mavs lost assets because the talent/fit evaluation wasn´t good.

[fifteenth]

The results matter. Not the thought process behind them. There are no bonus points for good intentions. Bottom line is. The Mavs had more assets prior to the DWright sign/trade. I don´t really care about winning or losing trades. I care about talent evaluation and asset management. No way to deny that the Mavs lost assets because the talent/fit evaluation wasn´t good.

I'm not giving them points for intentions. The Delon experiment failed. I'm not denying that. And I feel like I keep saying that. I think, however, that you'd have the same failures to post about if you were contributing to any other team's forum. I agree that results matter. If the Mavs can put together more hits than misses they might be able to win something. So far, it looks like they're heading in that direciton. We'll see.

[hakeemfaan]

Unfortunately we have always been weak at negotiating and have readily thrown away picks. Talent evaluation is one thing. Being strong at the negotiating table is another thing.